Editorial RPG Codex Retrospective: Roguey fights for social justice in Josh Sawyer's Icewind Dale II

[Roguey]

Gurl, I knew you were trolling when you mentioned the "difficult" combat.

Combat in IWD2:

- cast all buffs available

- rape everything with a smile on your face

- rest as soon as the first buff wears off.

This is very degenerate, so I didn't play this way knowing it wouldn't be enjoyable. That you can is a problem I mentioned. Moreover, some of the boss fights are demanding even with all the buffs (remorhaz queen, four iron golems, Imphraili, Chahopek, Lost Followers) I imagine there would be more on insane difficulty, which adds creatures to certain fights without giving them more health, and you can disable the double damage.

 

[evdk]

This is very degenerate, so I didn't play this way knowing it wouldn't be enjoyable. That you can is a problem I mentioned. Moreover, some of the boss fights are demanding even with all the buffs (remorhaz queen, four iron golems, Imphraili, Chahopek, Lost Followers) I imagine there would be more on insane difficulty, which adds creatures to certain fights without giving them more health, and you can disable the double damage.

It's degenerate design not degenerate gameplay though, don't make me channel mondblut.

 

[Roguey]

This is very degenerate, so I didn't play this way knowing it wouldn't be enjoyable. That you can is a problem I mentioned. Moreover, some of the boss fights are demanding even with all the buffs (remorhaz queen, four iron golems, Imphraili, Chahopek, Lost Followers) I imagine there would be more on insane difficulty, which adds creatures to certain fights without giving them more health, and you can disable the double damage.

It's degenerate design not degenerate gameplay though, don't make me channel mondblut.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61...h-and-audio-cd-soundtrack/page-4#entry1242071

Gameplay degeneration occurs when a player engages in gameplay not because they enjoy that gameplay but because the game's mechanics put the player at a disadvantage for not taking advantage of it. Rest spamming is one example. Wholesale slaughter/genocide is another. Quests that involve a peaceful option to resolve that get turned around after completion when the player murders the saved parties is a familiar expression of this sort of degeneration.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63017-level-scaling-and-its-misuse/page-11#entry1298328

I don't believe I've ever referred to the people who engage in degenerate gameplay as "degenerates", nor have I insinuated they are doing something wrong or bad. They're playing the game in the way that the rules encourage them to play. Those rules are made by designers, so again, it's ultimately our responsibility.

 

[evdk]

As long as we agree who is the fuck up in this case...

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I imagine there would be more on insane difficulty, which adds creatures to certain fights without giving them more health, and you can disable the double damage.

Does disabling said double damage boil down to putting "1" instead of "0" in that
Suppress Extra Difficulty Damage=0
ini's line after selecting "insane" in the config.exe ?

 

[Roguey]

I imagine there would be more on insane difficulty, which adds creatures to certain fights without giving them more health, and you can disable the double damage.

Does disabling said double damage boil down to putting "1" instead of "0" in that
Suppress Extra Difficulty Damage=0
ini's line after selecting "insane" in the config.exe ?

Yup.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Cool, I'll try it. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Sacred82]

This is very degenerate, so I didn't play this way knowing it wouldn't be enjoyable. That you can is a problem I mentioned. Moreover, some of the boss fights are demanding even with all the buffs (remorhaz queen, four iron golems, Imphraili, Chahopek, Lost Followers) I imagine there would be more on insane difficulty, which adds creatures to certain fights without giving them more health, and you can disable the double damage.

According to Sawyer's own definition, "degenerate" playstyle means playing in a way that wasn't intended by the devs. No one can tell me that rest spamming wasn't intended in IWD2, simply because that's what already happenend in IWD1. Since they didn't take any steps to prevent this/ provide feasible alternatives, how can it be degenerate?

This isn't even mentioning that there are probably more ways to turn the game into a cake-walk. Summoning spells are one thing I mentioned. I also suspect (I will never test this as I'll never again spend time on this game) that it also breaks the game if you take 4 or less characters, just like it did in IWD1. In IWD1 a druid in a party of four or less could easily break the game by himself with spells, as his summons were always two steps ahead of the enemy in terms of toughness.

 

[Roguey]

I meant to say that, ironically, Roguey is part of why there are so many misogynist assholes on this forum.

Oh I forgot to respond to this.

I don't think so. They were here before me and they'll still be here when I'm gone. If anything, I'm reacting to them.

On a semi-related tangent, I let Lesi know about her influence and cameo appearance in my article through the comments section on her blog. She didn't let it get past the moderation queue of course. Too bad I won't be getting the critique I want, but she seems to be far too busy and having far too much fun yelling at a white woman over there anyhow.

 

[Roguey]

According to Sawyer's own definition, "degenerate" playstyle means playing in a way that wasn't intended by the devs. No one can tell me that rest spamming wasn't intended in IWD2, simply because that's what already happenend in IWD1. Since they didn't take any steps to prevent this/ provide feasible alternatives, how can it be degenerate?

Because you are engaging in gameplay not because you enjoy that gameplay but because the game's mechanics put you at a disadvantage for not taking advantage of it.

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/299951097563329086

I do think that the fight / rest cycle became degenerate and not fun. I believe there are solutions to that, but most of them run counter to the spirit of 3E D&D.

 

[crawlkill]

Roguey your own fucking signature non-absolves degenerate gameplay being the "correct" way to get through a game.

"An awesome game with a crappy ruleset would be a better game if it had a better ruleset. Again, why grit your teeth and accept fundamentally dumb systems and their dumb adaptations into different media when such things clearly could be designed and executed better?"

And it's super true. IE combat is bad and almost always boils down to casting a few powerful buffs and, later on, having mages have identical protection/protection dispel duels with one another. There might be ways to cripple yourself so that it becomes difficult again, but...is that satisfying? It's not satisfying for me. I love breaking game systems, but I want them to fight back. If all it takes is a level one cleric spell, a level two cleric spell and a level four mage spell (or whatever Bless, PfE and Haste are)...casting them just becomes a chore. Can't we just accept this as a people and move on? It's only "fun" in the sense that it's so easy to completely break, so you get to feel like a mega-superhero. As far as learning-to-do-it-with-your-eyes-closed goes, IE games are way simpler than, say, your average Rubik's Cube. Anyone who says he's playing the games for their combat and not for their STORYFAG...needs to go play some game that's actually challenging.

 

[Infinitron]

Can't we just accept this as a people and move on?

Who's this "we" you're talking about son

I don't find it "fun" to realize that I've broken a system. I tend to feel like I'm being cheated when that happens. It sucks.

As far as learning-to-do-it-with-your-eyes-closed goes, IE games are way simpler than, say, your average Rubik's Cube. Anyone who says he's playing the games for their combat and not for their STORYFAG...needs to go play some game that's actually challenging.

So simple and accessible they're being mass-produced by all major publishers to this day.

 

[crawlkill]

I don't find it "fun" to realize that I've broken a system. I tend to feel like I'm being cheated when that happens. It sucks.

then Infinity Engine games past the point of your mages being able to cast Haste must be completely unsatisfying to you. the games are just too easy to break. you don't have to be cunning to ruin them, you just have to...use the most obvious tools available to you.

So simple and accessible they're being mass-produced by all major publishers to this day.

IE games are inaccessible to a 2013 audience because the major pleasure in them is reading the WERDS, which isn't really something this generation of gamers is into ("gamers" isn't in my Chrome dictionary). it's not that they're "too hard," combat challenge-wise. it's that their appeal is in presenting a vivid setting in which even the throwaway characters are memorable, and to the hundred million dollar farmable CoD 46 market, memorable non-voiced throwaway characters don't mean anything.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't find it "fun" to realize that I've broken a system. I tend to feel like I'm being cheated when that happens. It sucks.

then Infinity Engine games past the point of your mages being able to cast Haste must be completely unsatisfying to you. the games are just too easy to break. you don't have to be cunning to ruin them, you just have to...use the most obvious tools available to you.

That's why I apply a modicum of LARPing ("My character wouldn't do that!") and avoid using those tools. It's not exactly hard to reason that the game designers didn't really want you sleeping after every battle and only left that option in the game as a safety valve for noobs.

it's not that they're "too hard," combat challenge-wise.

lol, seriously?

Right now some kid who's never played an IE game before in his life is getting mauled by wolves outside of Candlekeep in BG:EE and wondering what ungodly hell of combat difficulty this game came from.

 

[crawlkill]

That's why I apply a modicum of LARPing ("My character wouldn't do that!") and avoid using those tools. It's not exactly hard to reason that the game designers didn't really want you sleeping after every battle and only left that option in the game as a safety valve for noobs.

"we built a game in which the obvious tools are broken but REAL players wouldn't use those tools"

bullshit.

Right now some kid who's never played an IE game before in his life is getting mauled by wolves outside of Candlekeep in BG:EE and wondering what ungodly hell of combat difficulty this game came from.

But...the wolf mauling also isn't "difficult." They haven't made bad build choices that make the wolfmauling punish them for their foolishness. They're just being put up against enemies they need to luck out to deal with. "Oh man, if only I had the tactical chops to deal with these wolves!" No. The only way to deal with them is to hope for 20s or to reload. That's not a game that's just "too challenging" for a modern audience. It's terrible game design. ...this is all feeding back into the "Infinity Engine games have terrible combat design" thing. are you really contesting this?

 

[Infinitron]

"we built a game in which the obvious tools are broken but REAL players wouldn't use those tools"

bullshit.

Not bullshit. Bioware.

"Let's make a game that works well if you're a reasonably skilled player who's playing in a 'straight' fashion, but in case you aren't a reasonably skilled player, just click rest and everything will be all right and you can progress and see all our AWESUM story content."

Does that really sound far-fetched to you???

Rest-spamming removes all strategic context from the game. Healing potions, spells, and other resources that the game is chock full of? Fuck it, you don't need those, just rest! It's so obviously not meant to be done.

But...the wolf mauling also isn't "difficult." They haven't made bad build choices that make the wolfmauling punish them for their foolishness. They're just being put up against enemies they need to luck out to deal with. "Oh man, if only I had the tactical chops to deal with these wolves!" No. The only way to deal with them is to hope for 20s or to reload. That's not a game that's just "too challenging" for a modern audience.

Oh cease your sophistry. The kid doesn't know or undertand the difference between these things. The end result is that the game seems too "hard".

It's terrible game design. ...this is all feeding back into the "Infinity Engine games have terrible combat design" thing. are you really contesting this?

Fragile level 1 characters is part of the nature of AD&D, so it's not really the fault of the Infinity Engine games.

 

[crawlkill]

so you determine how many times you're supposed to rest in a dungeon? or do you do all dungeons with no rests? or...you ignore the wider context of the world? do you go and cure your vampire level drain with a priest 20 hours away when you're taking on Firkraag's dungeon? or if you brought a Restoration priest, do you then -not- rest a few times to cure level drain? it's bad game design, brother. you don't have to defend it. let it go. you don't get to say "fragile level 1 characters are a part of AD&D" and then deny that insane plotbreaking eight-hour rests are a part of AD&D. they're built in.

 

[Infinitron]

so you determine how many times you're supposed to rest in a dungeon? or do you do all dungeons with no rests? or...you ignore the wider context of the world? do you go and cure your vampire level drain with a priest 20 hours away when you're taking on Firkraag's dungeon? or if you brought a Restoration priest, do you then -not- rest a few times to cure level drain?

I try to rest once a day, or when I absolutely have to. It's not rocket science.

it's bad game design, brother.

Who's denying that's it bad game design???

The point is, it's bad game design with consequences that can be avoided, greatly improving the game.

And if you can do that, then you absolutely should.

you don't have to defend it. let it go..

Sentences like these remind me that you're the guy who praised the glorious tablet future of the CRPG genre.

 

[crawlkill]

to take in reverse order:

...if you think gamers are going to be using desktop or laptop computers and not tablets twenty years from now you are wrong. like...you...don't have to be a pathetic reactionary. you don't even have to embrace the future. embrace the present, baby.

"it's bad game design that you can self-impose challenges on which makes it acceptable game design again" is hilariously wrong

if I were being level drained by vampires--y'know, irl, because 8-hour rests in D&D are totally comparable to real life situations, like when my boss level drains me--I would sure as shit rest to cure that shit. man, in real life I just sleep for eight hours to deal with the normal level drain of living ...what. realism is and has been absent from the eight-hour-rest paradigm. dunno what you're going for.

 

[Infinitron]

"it's bad game design that you can self-impose challenges on which makes it acceptable game design again" is hilariously wrong

Stop putting words in my mouth. This argument isn't about good or bad game design. It's about how to extract fun from a game. The game is what it is.

These games had tons of combat, yet you're discounting their combat completely, and saying they were really all about the words or the story or whatever, and that nobody took all that combat seriously. You are wrong.

 

[crawlkill]

self-imposed superpower asceticism in a game easily completable by baseline sentience is not, to the vast majority of the human race, "fun." you might find denying yourself the use of imbalanced tools fun, but most humans won't. "I ignored enough spells in IE games to make combat painful instead of hilariously easy" doesn't suggest you've found a deeper fun, Tron, sorry.

 

[Infinitron]

self-imposed superpower asceticism in a game easily completable by baseline sentience is not, to the vast majority of the human race, "fun."

I don't give a fuck what the vast majority of the human race thinks. The vast majority of the human race aren't gamers. Maybe they'd prefer to read a story, like you do.

Combat was a major element in the Infinity Engine games - this is undeniable. Josh Sawyer enumerated the major elements of the IE games in the Project Eternity pitch video - "The story, the setting and the tactical combat."

As a reasonably savvy gamer, I immediately realized even when I played Baldur's Gate for the first time back in high school, that if something was trivializing a major element of a game, then that something probably shouldn't be abused.

 

[evdk]

As a reasonably savvy gamer, I immediately realized even when I played Baldur's Gate for the first time back in high school, that if something was trivializing a major element of a game, then that something probably shouldn't be abused.

No, then that something shouldn't have been included in the first place. The onus it's not on the players to larp their way through games that in no way reward said larping (beyond not becoming ridiculously easy to complete) just to have some medium of challenge, it's the developers' job to design the game in such a way that those methods are not only not pathetically easy to exploit but actually not exploitable at all. I will not do their job for them by iron manning the bloody game just because nobody thought that allowing resting everywhere is a terrible idea and never bothered to balance the game without it properly. Fuck that.

 

[Monty]

Crawlkill reminds me a bit of some gamers I remember complaining how easy all the battles in BG2 were. When questioned about how they approached Twisted Rune (for example), it turned out they save-scummed until they knew all the spawn positions and then spammed high-level thief traps to go off as the enemies ported in.

Most games have exploits like this but it's not hard to realise that this takes the fun out of a battle, just like excessive resting takes the tension out of completing a dungeon. Not hard to avoid for anyone who enjoys a decent challenge.

 

[tuluse]

BG2 is no fun if you rest spam. Just make up some rules and follow them and the fun increases. My rule of thumb was 2 rests per dungeon. Usually the boss fights were balanced for a fully rested party, so you need at least one, and I gave myself 1 freebie.