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Review RPG Codex Review: Alpha Protocol

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Obsidian has a fundamentally flawed understanding of stealth

This isn't the first time you've made this utterly bizarre statement. I still don't get it.

What is this "fundamentally flawed understanding"? Can you describe it? How did they arrive at this "fundamentally flawed understanding"?

What would happen if Obsidian was tasked with making an actual stealth game, such as Thief? How would this "fundamental flaw" express itself in such a case?
 

handup

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Walking is time-padding filler. "Having to find things" is no big deal.
You seem to have a particular gripe with walking in Bloodlines, but I felt that it was much shorter than, say Arcanum or Deus Ex. Frankly, I think I spent more time waiting for loading screens in Alpha Protocol, than I did walking in Bloodlines.

"Investigation" in this case is "go here, do that, come back."
Alpha Protocol could have done with a bit more in the "do that" depart.
 

Roguey

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What is this "fundamentally flawed understanding"? Can you describe it? How did they arrive at this "fundamentally flawed understanding"?
It comes from this thread where he Rosh, 1eyedking and others went nuts when Anthony Davis and a former Obsidian producer talked about how stealth would work in Aliens. They should have called it guerrilla warfare. :M
 

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What is this "fundamentally flawed understanding"? Can you describe it? How did they arrive at this "fundamentally flawed understanding"?
It comes from this thread where he Rosh, 1eyedking and others went nuts when Anthony Davis and a former Obsidian producer talked about how stealth would work in Aliens. They should have called it guerrilla warfare. :M

Ah, I see that "denizsi" is quite active in that thread. :roll:
 
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Obsidian has a fundamentally flawed understanding of stealth

This isn't the first time you've made this utterly bizarre statement. I still don't get it.

What is this "fundamentally flawed understanding"? Can you describe it? How did they arrive at this "fundamentally flawed understanding"?

What would happen if Obsidian was tasked with making an actual stealth game, such as Thief? How would this "fundamental flaw" express itself in such a case?

As if one needs an introduction to Obsidian. Stealth in: Alpha Popamole = free take downs; NWN2 = damage multiplier bonus; Alien RPG = setting bomb traps and turret guns. The ONLY Obsidian game where Stealth serves as a gameplay function other than killing is FNV. I don't even remember if KOTOR2 had stealth at all. It had some shitty stealth equipment that required Stealth skill and that's all I remember.

I ignored it because I don't think atmosphere, interesting places to look at and "optional content" (which also exists in AP) make for better gameplay. I think they're both pretty much the same as far as gameplay's concerned.

"Optional content" in AP is in the form of blinking messages, like "hey, I'm an option quest!". It's subtle and has character in Bloodlines.

Walking is time-padding filler. "Having to find things" is no big deal.

It's en efficient tool for world building in Bloodlines. And it works. Unlike AP. AP could do great with just a few additions. Fuckface Thorton change hubs we don't ever get to see how. For someone on the run and being hunted down, he changes locations far too easily and comfortably and a lot of important stuff that really matters happen off screen. Would it be too fucking hard to build a few "missions" where you simply try to get out of your apartment, get to a train station or an airport and remain hidden? Another staple of the spy/espionage genre? Oh no, Obsidian was too busy being clever and turning the genre on its ear by converting it into a bland corridor shooter.

But I can see how it appeals to some people, in a way similar to how shit like "50 shades of grey" appeals to some people.

Walking is time-padding filler. "Having to find things" is no big deal.
You seem to have a particular gripe with walking in Bloodlines, but I felt that it was much shorter than, say Arcanum or Deus Ex. Frankly, I think I spent more time waiting for loading screens in Alpha Protocol, than I did walking in Bloodlines.

It's even more puzzling that she doesn't seem to have a problem with the glorified game menus in the guise of hubs which require you to run around in your flat, a most pointless exercise. And the linear corridor shooter missions which almost exclusively sneaking, walking or running from point A to point B. At least "missions" in Bloodlines were very brief (barring the sewers. Fucking sewers).
 

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As if one needs an introduction to Obsidian. Stealth in: Alpha Popamole = free take downs; NWN2 = damage multiplier bonus; Alien RPG = setting bomb traps and turret guns. The ONLY Obsidian game where Stealth serves as a gameplay function other than killing is FNV. I don't even remember if KOTOR2 had stealth at all. It had some shitty stealth equipment that required Stealth skill and that's all I remember.

But none of these are stealth games. How does a simplistic implementation of stealth mechanics in a non-stealth game express the implementor's "fundamental flaw" in the understanding of stealth?

You can say you would have preferred these games to be more stealth-centric in the first place, at the design level, but Obsidian's failure to make them so isn't indicative of a "fundamental flaw".
 

St. Toxic

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Walking is time-padding filler. "Having to find things" is no big deal.

Well, you don't actually have to find the things, but I digress. If you'd rather just have menus and information, optional or otherwise, shoved down your throat, I'm going to allow it. Question is, at what point does the player actually get exposed to the gameworld?

"Investigation" in this case is "go here, do that, come back."

That's also a pretty good summing up of life itself. Time-padding filler indeed.
 
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As if one needs an introduction to Obsidian. Stealth in: Alpha Popamole = free take downs; NWN2 = damage multiplier bonus; Alien RPG = setting bomb traps and turret guns. The ONLY Obsidian game where Stealth serves as a gameplay function other than killing is FNV. I don't even remember if KOTOR2 had stealth at all. It had some shitty stealth equipment that required Stealth skill and that's all I remember.

But none of these are stealth games.

Neither is Deus Ex or FO1/2 or FNV or Assassin's Creed and yet, they all have simplistic but pretty good and entertaining implementations.

How does a simplistic implementation of stealth mechanics in a non-stealth game express the implementor's "fundamental flaw" in the understanding of stealth?

By diminishing stealth to merely damage modifiers or alternative ways to kill things instead of a gameplay function. In the examples above, you can achieve great many things by stealth and you can mix or not mix it with combat. It is actually a viable gameplay function unto itself. Unlike in Alpha Popamole where it's an invisibility cheat (in a game already with camera cheat ie. 3rd person and cover system) for killing things more efficiently.

You can say you would have preferred these games to be more stealth-centric in the first place, at the design level, but Obsidian's failure to make them so isn't indicative of a "fundamental flaw".

Sure it is. You speak as if there have been no non-stealth games with good stealth components. Open your eyes. When you make a spy game, call it "espionage RPG" and fail to deliver a stealth component worth shit, it points to shit design. When you make a Star Wars RPG, put in certain in game items to make killing more efficient and then call it Stealth, it points to shit design. When you make a fantasy RPG and all you can get out of stealth is more efficient killing, it points to shit design. When you attempt to make an Aliens RPG, call it an "RPG based on stealth" and then explain that "stealth in Aliens RPG means setting bomb traps and turret guns; sorry guys, no crafting, scavenging or survival", it points to shit design. When they excel in shit design in one particular aspect of all of their games repeatedly, it points to a fundamental problem in understanding what stealth is. Especially when there have been other games that do it well. Obsidian has fallen behind the times.

And why do you even write as though you are surprised? Obsidian has always been a developer of generally shit games with good writing, narrative and whatnot. Their one game where there is a respectable stealth component that can self-sustain is FNV and that is only because they took over the wreckage from Bethesda. So very ironic.

I thought about drawing a parallel to Jagged Alliance 2, a game that revolves around tactical combat and management of resources, like how ridiculous it would sound if the game was called "Jagged Alliance 2: Tactical Espionage Game". Then I remembered: JA2 actually provides a far better and more coherent stealth experience, capable of carrying such a name to a degree. That's how pathetic Alpha Popamole is.
 
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Walking is time-padding filler. "Having to find things" is no big deal.
"Investigation" in this case is "go here, do that, come back."

Go work on your game, VD!

That's an ironic joke because in AOD, you actually have to walk around the town or "manually" talk to some of the townsfolk to trigger some of the encounters or to find some of the items that you wouldn't otherwise find out.
 

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When you make a Star Wars RPG, put in certain in game items to make killing more efficient and then call it Stealth, it points to shit design. When you make a fantasy RPG and all you can get out of stealth is more efficient killing, it points to shit design. When you attempt to make an Aliens RPG, call it an "RPG based on stealth" and then explain that "stealth in Aliens RPG means setting bomb traps and turret guns; sorry guys, no crafting, scavenging or survival", it points to shit design. When they excel in shit design in one particular aspect of all of their games repeatedly, it points to a fundamental problem in understanding what stealth is. Especially when there have been other games that do it well. Obsidian has fallen behind the times.

You still haven't explained what their "fundamental flaw" is. There is no "flaw", they just weren't setting out to make an incredible, full featured stealth system in these games. Not every game is going to scratch your stealth itch - deal with it.

For fuck's sake, these games each did stealth in an entirely different way. Where's the "fundamental flaw" here? You're talking irrationally, like somebody with a sick stealth fetish.
 

Marsal

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Walking is time-padding filler. "Having to find things" is no big deal.
"Investigation" in this case is "go here, do that, come back."

Go work on your game, VD!

That's an ironic joke because in AOD, you actually have to walk around the town or "manually" talk to some of the townsfolk to trigger some of the encounters or to find some of the items that you wouldn't otherwise find out.
I'm sure those anachronisms will be fixed in the final release next beta.
 
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When you make a Star Wars RPG, put in certain in game items to make killing more efficient and then call it Stealth, it points to shit design. When you make a fantasy RPG and all you can get out of stealth is more efficient killing, it points to shit design. When you attempt to make an Aliens RPG, call it an "RPG based on stealth" and then explain that "stealth in Aliens RPG means setting bomb traps and turret guns; sorry guys, no crafting, scavenging or survival", it points to shit design. When they excel in shit design in one particular aspect of all of their games repeatedly, it points to a fundamental problem in understanding what stealth is. Especially when there have been other games that do it well. Obsidian has fallen behind the times.

You still haven't explained what their "fundamental flaw" is.

Are you stupid or are you trolling? I just demonstrated what a hollow understanding they have of stealth to call all those things "stealth" in their games.

There is no "flaw", they just weren't setting out to make an incredible, full featured stealth system in these games. Not every game is going to scratch your stealth itch - deal with it.

Obsidian makes half-shit games with sometimes good writing and narratives. Mechanics are always secondary. Deal with it.

R00FLES!

For fuck's sake, these games each did stealth in an entirely different way. Where's the "fundamental flaw" here? You're talking irrationally, like somebody with a sick stealth fetish.

Stop living in the past. People have actually been putting thought and time into their games to develop stealth components. Obsidian? I don't know what the fuck they have been doing but one thing they are definitely not doing but are still pretending to be doing is stealth. Come now, we all saw how this process worked with AP prior to release. Release shitty gameplay video showcasing defunct AI and retarded "stealth" elements. Get flank. Disregard criticism and say "what matters is fun".

Remember that phrase well: "what matters is fun". Sawyer keeps repeating it. We will all see what a retarded clusterfuck combat will be Real Crap with Pause. Because, hey, "FUN!".

The fundamental flaw is they keep giving us half-shit games and call things stealth when they aren't stealth. It's that they are shoving RPGLite arcade action games down people's throats and call them RPGs because they slapped a few shitty systems on the games and called it stealth. Story of Obsidian.
 

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villain of the story That's still not a fundamental flaw in their understanding of stealth specifically. You've just described a flaw in the way Obsidian approaches game mechanic design in general.

You were implying that Obsidian has some idiosyncratic problem with stealth in particular, which is incredibly strange.
 

BLOBERT

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BROS I AM REAKKY ANGRY SANF OBSIDAN BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE THEM
 

St. Toxic

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Stop bashing Obshittian, guise, it's not their fault all their games are worthless!! :cry:

Also,


During this time, I also attended a history class unlike any of the ones I’d taken before. It was a real history class, basically. The teacher was young, having the sort of punk-rock aesthetic (piercings, funny-colored hair, that sort of thing) that makes parents worry about their child’s education. You could tell that she took up teaching because she was the type of idealist that wanted to give back to the community, and to her this meant dropping truth bombs on us impressionable kids. The hope was that this real talk would allow us to go further than we might if we believed the wrong history books or believed the things said in conservative Spanish media.

So when I started asking about the United States government and their ethics, my mother was quick to blame that professor–oh, she must’ve been poisoning my mind! What my mother didn’t know was that it was good ol’ video games that were corrupting me, making me ask questions.

It was playing through a version of history where Americans drove themselves to destruction because we refused to stop relying on oil that made me wonder about this country. It was playing through a reality where we valued being a formidable war force above all else that made me worry about this country. It was playing through something where the government cared so little about its citizens that it would knowingly construct vaults with the purpose of experimentation that made me feel sick thinking about what this country was capable of. It reading about how corporations like Vault Tek got away with manipulating the populace for personal gain that made me find out that corporations sometimes have more rights than actual human beings. And so the reason all Fallout 2 felt compelling was because its version of the future wasn’t so outlandish.

:notsureifserious:
 

Moribund

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Oh I finally get it :lol:

If the game has bad stealth it's not a stealth game. If the game had good stealth it was a stealth game!

So what kind of games are Obshitian games, then? :lol: Not stealth games, or exploration games, or combat of any kind games. They seem to be some kind of forum trolling game for retards.
 

handup

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Or an adventure game with stats ala Planescape Torment, only with the combat stripped completely, or reduced to a dice roll or something similar, then mca can just do the writting, josh and tim cain can fuck around with the system mechanics and experiment with the puzzles and we the gamers do not have to slog through all the shit subpar combat that we found in kotor 2, nwn 2, fallout NV, and yes, Alpha Protocol. Everyone lives happily ever after.
Unfortunately crpgs with an emphasis on combat and with a few pretty cutscenes sell way better than adventure games. And Obsidian is not exactly in a good position financially at the moment to experiment with genres.
 

Metro

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I'm playing right now and I don't understand why people think it's the worst game evahhhhhhh. So far it seems on par with Deus Ex HR. Nothing amazing but still decent fun.
 

Roguey

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So far it seems on par with Deus Ex HR. Nothing amazing but still decent fun.
I hope you're viewing that as a whole as opposed to "the shooting and stealth are on par with HR" which would be ridiculous. You're likely to bump into some pointlessly frustrating parts later on. I suspect those who dislike it the most started off playing on recruit/hard which makes pretty much everything pointlessly frustrating.
 

abnaxus

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Obsidian should produce a visual novel
84.jpg
 

Maiandros

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the absence of the word 'fuck' in that second paragraph is sorely noted, one would almost think the train of thought was lost..thankfully, the following one makes proper ammends as to that..a glorious masterpiece of an excerpt

abnaxus nothing personal, don't mean to spite you ;p
 

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