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Codex Review RPG Codex Review: Caves of Qud

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Dec 28, 2024
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The battle to keep the word 'roguelike' meaningful was lost a long time ago and citing the Berlin Interpretation is worth about as much as a UN condemnation. Further, with the benefit of hindsight ADOM and its consequences have been a disaster for the rogueliker race.

That said you reveal some shallow understandings of e.g. the importance of tinkering shit up or how broken cooking can be, functioning as its own self-buffing system with high power effects. Both are kind of goofy and unsatisfying and seem cribbed from other popular shit. But they are mechanically meaningful systems - just one is gay (crafting) and one is weirdly misplaced (cooking is usually about eating food to not die, it would make much more sense as a way to get permaintrinsics from corpses or something rather than starting your day with Buffio's, part of a complete breakfast)
 

v1c70r14

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That said you reveal some shallow understandings of e.g. the importance of tinkering shit up or how broken cooking can be, functioning as its own self-buffing system with high power effects.
I wouldn't install this game if I was paid to, so all my information about the game comes from the review, some texts by the developers, and a few other secondary sources. I also didn't say it was mechanically not meaningful, but design-wise it was something clearly tacked on and not the focus of the game. In addition to Rogue combined with freezing cold (Quves of Qhud has a temperature system too, but like with cooking it's just kind of there) and Rogue with Lovecraft I could see Rogue combined with Danjon Meshi being a possible take on the format. As the review states:

Cooking is also potentially exploitable, though it is a mechanic I have played around with less.

In a good game taking heavily from Rogue about cooking this would be central to the game, a core of the experience that you'd get to know inside and out during your multiple attempts to conquer the single dungeon, not something you could half-ignore. One of the big issues is again from the abandonment of the pillars that made Rogue work, in an open world game with a lengthy narrative driven campaign you can't produce the tension of say attempting to boil a toxic eel you found in a subterranean lake and then almost dying from eating it, which would be similar to drinking an unknown mystery potion out of desperation and gambling with your entire run and having to adapt to the results. In this context it doesn't matter if you could potentially break the game with the cooking system.

My arguments are from a position of the larger design structure, not specific systems by themselves. You're right about the consequences of ADOM though. Like Ultima killed CRPGs, ADOM killed the roguelike genre.
 

Theodora

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The primary purpose of the food system in Qud afaict isn't even needing to carve out a moment of not being assaulted, but giving yourself various buffs by optionally doing more than the bare minimum.

Infra Arcana is great, but it's not like Qud is the first, nor will it be the last, to take the genre in a more RPG adjacent direction. You already mentioned ToME, Cogmind is another (which arguably has more arcade-y moment to moment gameplay than usual, but is undeniably going for that deeper sense of a narrative and setting).

Like if you want to go play Brogue or god forbid Rogue itself that's fine, but acting like that's what even the majority of grumpy old Berlin Interpretation'ers do is kinda a farse to me. Like play arcade-y games all you want, but complaining about story and wider RPG elements isn't so much a meaningful complaint as it is making your own preferences known while vaguely attacking the devs as "fetish inserters".

Genres aren't static, in any media, pretending otherwise is a bit juvenile.
 
Joined
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The primary purpose of the food system in Qud afaict isn't even needing to carve out a moment of not being assaulted, but giving yourself various buffs by optionally doing more than the bare minimum.

Infra Arcana is great, but it's not like Qud is the first, nor will it be the last, to take the genre in a more RPG adjacent direction. You already mentioned ToME, Cogmind is another (which arguably has more arcade-y moment to moment gameplay than usual, but is undeniably going for that deeper sense of a narrative and setting).

Like if you want to go play Brogue or god forbid Rogue itself that's fine, but acting like that's what even the majority of grumpy old Berlin Interpretation'ers do is kinda a farse to me. Like play arcade-y games all you want, but complaining about story and wider RPG elements isn't so much a meaningful complaint as it is making your own preferences known while vaguely attacking the devs as "fetish inserters".

Genres aren't static, in any media, pretending otherwise is a bit juvenile.
Yeah, exactly, the primary purpose of the food system in Qud is something better served with other window dressing, which distracts from the fact that the food pressure clock, THE ACTUAL PURPOSE OF FOOD SYSTEMS IN ROGUELIKES, is gone. Making the entire thing as it is in Qud a misbegotten misnomer of a misdirection.

Words (should) have definite meanings. I was playing actual roguelikes well before trash like BoI and Dredmor forever poisoned that steam tag and indeed word. 'Traditional roguelike' is also starting to see creep-in. Get this tzeentchian always evolving moral relativism crap out of my face. Cultural evolution doesn't have to be accepted when it's retarded and being done by retards. if you enjoyed say, farm simulators, and over a decade of misleading marketing resulted in trying to search for a "farm simulator" getting you endless heaps of garbage with sometimes no more than a single thread of design thought connecting them to what a 'farm simulator' is, you'd be fucking bitter too. Embracing that shit is not being an enlightened forward-looking gamer who's so above such petty concerns. It's being a cowardly zeitgeist-kowtowing cretin.
 

cvv

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.

unless you're glued to the wiki there's way too much stuff that can out of nowhere fuck your run up
200w.gif
 

Theodora

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How does CoQ compare to something like Cataclysm DDA?

Not really a comparable subsort of roguelike. It's story-orientated ultimately with a specific goal, versus CDDA's "do whatever the hell you want".

'Traditional roguelike' is also starting to see creep-in.

I prefer having such an explicit term to only having people calling very-much-roguelites roguelikes.

Embracing that shit is not being an enlightened forward-looking gamer who's so above such petty concerns. It's being a cowardly zeitgeist-kowtowing cretin.

I never said it was definitional, but genre-melding is a normal part of gamedev these days, esp. in the indie scene. I don't think it's relativistic anything, people will pay for something that feels novel.
 

Oberon

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Caves of Qock might be the bastard offspring of troon pedophiles huffing their own farts for too long, and naturally people that agree with their politics are quick to defend these aspects of the game by minimizing the role of them, but in my estimation it's a shit game on a more fundamental level. I'd go so far as to say that most "roguelikes" fail to live up to the legacy of Rogue, barring a few examples that did carry on the tradition.

The original design is a shining beacon of sleek minimalism with a gameplay density that makes it addictive and infinitely replayable. A single dungeon you descend into, there's not even a character creation screen, and you are immediately launched into it. That single dungeon changes with every playthrough and so does the encounters with the monsters. The further you stray from this very simple design and go Richard Garriott with it, adding an overworld, or faction systems, storyfaggotry, and other garbage that is a drag, you gradually move away from what made the permadeath and replayability design even work. Added complexities like randomly generated quests are parts that quickly get old, or a sludge of lore and history that is shuffled around each time but contributes almost nothing, if anything, to the gameplay.

I agree that the procedurally generated dungeons feel a bit samey and illogical but the hand-crafted ones like [...]
Most of the major cities are handcrafted rather than procedurally generated.

Eventually you get shit like this, the whole point of Rogue was to provide a fresh dungeon each lethal playthrough and now the dungeons of this garbage are static. Because it was so unforgiving Rogue wasn't overly long and is beatable within a single session, if you're lucky, the setup of the game is harmonized with the mechanics. Since Qaves of Quck is attempting to be a Morrowind, as the poster above stated, for degenerates instead of the metaphysically inclined, they eventually realized that the design just wasn't suited to this long-form dime-a-dozen exercise in worldbuilding and some grand storyfaggot narrative, rather than hyperfocused gameplay originally attached to it. As the review states...

The game was originally built as a traditional roguelike with permadeath and a single save slot which is destroyed when the character dies, but additional options have been added. These include a fairly normal RPG experience with saving and loading at checkpoints, and an adventure/exploration mode that is even easier.

This isn't an issue limited to brain damaged leftists fetish inserters, even Tales of Taj'Mahal strays too far into sloppy design territory if you ask me, and you should, because I actually played and liked Rogue, the eponymous game of the genre. The best games stick to the core concepts of that first game, Frozen Depths did a great take on the format with the added danger of freezing to death, Infra Arcana did Lovecraft justice by making the monsters something you'd want to avoid and having the character go mad, both games follow the same barebones skeleton, you're thrown into a dungeon to find something at the bottom of it and the tension of getting to that goal, and all the permutations of that journey, are enough to make you want to keep playing.

Quckold of Qoom is by contrast very sloppy. For example there is a crafting system stapled on, not because it is some big focus of the game or really adds that much, it's just more busywork, like how all modern games use crafting systems to waste your time. Or the cooking system, which doesn't seem to contribute much either. The irony is that starvation isn't as big of a threat as in a real descendant of Rogue, or Rogue itself, quoting the review:

Your character must eat to survive, and suffers penalties as they become more hungry. However, this is not a serious attrition mechanic like it is in some other roguelikes, since you can always refill your hunger meter by cooking a random meal at a campfire.

So even if the devs weren't extremist LGBTQ+ jihadis that hate the human form and hired some pedo I'd still write off the game for this reason alone, that it totally missed the point of the almost arcade like experience of Rogue and the devs spent 15 years making something entirely pointless and bloated that adds nothing to the genre, because their furry erotica lore and systems for the sake of systems were more important to them than good game design. I spit on this game and those that have low standards enough to enjoy it.
I get where you are coming from, and I don't entirely agree with you on every point, particularly on complexity being entirely antithetical to the Roguelike model, or at least the lethal permadeath aspect of it.
Games like this are in large part simulations, look at Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead for example, it's a sandbox where you roleplay as a fragile human life thrown into an apocalypse, and you either thrive or you perish.
Now as for the checkpoints and the pre built maps, I 100% agree that shit is fucking gay and misses the point, one diffuses the tension by a solid, unexaggerated 99%, the other ruins the sense of exploring new places.
Crafting is something that can become a slog but once again in a hardcore simulationist game it's absence would be missed, just make it fun I guess.

Note I am talking about Roguelikes in general, never tried this one.
 

Mortmal

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unless you're glued to the wiki there's way too much stuff that can out of nowhere fuck your run up
View attachment 59296
He's right: if you start on permadeath mode, you will never see more than 10% of the game. It's not really designed for permadeath, as it's more of a hybrid. There's a campaign, and its story is more developed than in typical roguelikes. This is especially true in the late-game areas, where you're faced with enemies you have no means to counter, even if 99% of your run was flawless.

Premade dungeon parts, like the Tomb of the Eater or the Crematorium, can be outright lethal. For example, you can't possibly anticipate instant death from a hydraulic pump after crossing the screen to the west. I had to remove my feet and use cybernetic trails to get past that section easily.
 

v1c70r14

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Ugh I see where this is going
I'm not going to tell you to read Judith Butler here. This is about a roguelike you dumb nerd.
It's a valid enough of a comparison. Genres do change over time, so does gender roles. Used to be men wore pants and women didn't now that's no longer the case, in some extreme cases like in Poland women peg their men. At some point you have to ask what made the genres or sexes functional in the first place, and just like how introducing long campaigns and static unchanging levels to a game with permadeath, you've lost the plot when you try to invert a penis and turn it into a "neo-vagina". It's not a grumpy reactionary question to ask what the point even is without a womb or short bursts of generated dungeon crawling that changes each time, it's just common sense.
 

Theodora

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It's a valid enough of a comparison. Genres do change over time, so does gender roles. Used to be men wore pants and women didn't now that's no longer the case, in some extreme cases like in Poland women peg their men. At some point you have to ask what made the genres or sexes functional in the first place, and just like how introducing long campaigns and static unchanging levels to a game with permadeath, you've lost the plot when you try to invert a penis and turn it into a "neo-vagina". It's not a grumpy reactionary question to ask what the point even is without a womb or short bursts of generated dungeon crawling that changes each time, it's just common sense.
i just don't get what the relation is between it becoming socially acceptable for women to wear pants and some roguelikes integrating more RPG elements
 

NJClaw+

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Oct 28, 2021
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i just don't get what the relation is between it becoming socially acceptable for women to wear pants and some roguelikes integrating more RPG elements
Didn't you claim to understand old tongues sometime before you got the shoutbox removed for a quite a long period and all those posters banned, many of which are still gone? One doesn't need a college education to know that Victoria here is making the distinction between accidental and essential properties, like any old feminist, and applies it to video games. Pants in this context being an accidental property. It's an unavoidable position of the feminist, that want to both claim that much if not all that relates to femininity is patriarchal oppression and at the same time retain privileges and distinctions. 'Revolution' while keeping the categories and identity. Conveniently it also rejects the notion that you have to strive towards some ideal, anathema to the idea that one can become a better man or woman with effort.

Can't say I agree with it despite understanding this position, relationships and participation makes more sense. Applied to video games mine is the more natural position too since entire genres are named after archetypes, a game is like rogue - roguelike. The copies have degrees of relation to the original, this position retaining categories without some nihilistic impulse of flattening destruction, but having more nuance than the modern who can only see binaries or nothing at all. Some Poles might have male genitalia but that doesn't make them men. Long soft lush hair isn't an accidental property to women. Caves of Qud is barely a roguelike but some of the legacy and form of Rogue remains in there. &c.
 

buffalo bill

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Dec 8, 2016
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Caves of Qud is barely a roguelike
Why exactly? Are these also reasons for thinking that ADOM or CDDA are not roguelikes?

I might agree that a game completely without permadeath is not a roguelike, but surely CoQ is just as much a roguelike as ADOM or CDDA when playing with permadeath on.

Btw I am happy to use 'roguelike' to refer to a fairly narrow range of games. CoQ satisfies nearly all requirements so far as I can see.
 

NJClaw+

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Why exactly? Are these also reasons for thinking that ADOM or CDDA are not roguelikes?
I'm afraid that I did not enter this thread to argue with you whether this featherless chicken of yours is a man, it was solely to explicate what was unspoken. There are few things as pointless as yapping about the taxonomy of a video game. Whoever was not already put off by the freakazoid developers will not change his mind if playing the game was a letdown just because someone claims it is a relative of Rogue. Conversely someone who enjoys the game won't enjoy it any less or more depending on where either of us place it in terms of genres or heritage. You can engage in capitalist driven cynical emphasis on reference all you want, go hog wild with it. But do so on your own, I'm unbothered.
 

buffalo bill

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Why exactly? Are these also reasons for thinking that ADOM or CDDA are not roguelikes?
I'm afraid that I did not enter this thread to argue with you whether this featherless chicken of yours is a man, it was solely to explicate what was unspoken. There are few things as pointless as yapping about the taxonomy of a video game. Whoever was not already put off by the freakazoid developers will not change his mind if playing the game was a letdown just because someone claims it is a relative of Rogue. Conversely someone who enjoys the game won't enjoy it any less or more depending on where either of us place it in terms of genres or heritage. You can engage in capitalist driven cynical emphasis on reference all you want, go hog wild with it. But do so on your own, I'm unbothered. full of shit.
ftfy
 

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