Codex Review RPG Codex Review: Divinity: Original Sin 2

[Ninjerk]

I played x for n hours and had a lot of fun with it. Developer implemented a lot of minor and major c&c for the story characters. The party members were memorable and unique. The fighting was tactical and challenging at times. You could create a non-balanced party and win against all odds (I played without any tank). The dialog was sometimes stat-based. The world interactivity was great. Crafting was not bad either. All in all a lot of features to like. My only major critique is, that gear is leveled and becomes useless too fast.

Well, you at least have your boilerplate shill posting down.

 

[HiddenX]

Yep - c u guys until next time.

 

[felipepepe]

felipepepe fanboyish? Maylander got a lot of flak, because he rated Divinity: Original Sin 2 only Very Good instead of Excellent. We changed the RPGWatch rating system to a 6-point rating system because of this (!)

The RPGWatch Steam Curator's short descriptions are sometimes similar, because I'm always checking for the same features that are important for me - works for some people. You can't characterize games against each other in 144 letters.

For me it is still hard to understand, why the Codex funded a game, rated it GotY 2017 and then publishes a review that pulled it to pieces.

Like you, I'm working hard to make the CRPG genre more popular - reviews like this are counter-productive.

The problem with the Watch's review and with those similar reviews is that people have no frame of reference. How can a newcomer understand that PST's "cool story" is miles ahead of Ember's "rich story"?

I love this genre and I want to be better, but for this to happen there must be a sense of the state of the art. Just remember when BioWare was king and every review was about how they're the "master of storytelling and dialog". That's harmful. There were games doing it better and they should be praised for that - while BioWare should've had a goal to reach, a rival to be measured against.

Look at this:

Finally, once you kill all the guards in Fort Joy and open all the prison gates, you’d expect the prisoners to do something about it, but nothing ever happens. They still remain in the prison “slum” area and lament about no ways to get out. A far cry from a game like Gothic to be sure.

This is important. Gothic is almost 20 years old and is still unrivaled. Larian should read that and go "yeah, we can do better", and that kind of information is not on all the "quests are excellent" reviews.

I can write for hours about how Fallout 2's tone is a mess, how they didn't fix the "critical eye shot" attack, the mandatory fight with Frank Horrigan is pure decline, Luck is a shitty stat, the Temple of Trials is garbage, etc... but I still absolutely love the game. It's amazing DESPITE those flaws.

 

[Fenix]

Like you, I'm working hard to make the CRPG genre more popular - reviews like this are counter-productive.

Sorry, but if you think that if you wiol throw positive reviews left and right, and that somehow will help RPG genre - you are incredibly wrong....

 

[HiddenX]

Like you, I'm working hard to make the CRPG genre more popular - reviews like this are counter-productive.

Sorry, but if you think that if you wiol throw positive reviews left and right, and that somehow will help RPG genre - you are incredibly wrong....

I've added only 14 games to the RPGWatch Steam Curator in 2017 (including some re-relaesed old games) and I get 50-100 review requests per month...

 

[Fenix]

Well, that's great, but it might be you doing more harm then good with overly positive review?
Sure more people will play, but what about feedback to devs?

I'm certain in one thing for sure - if you telling that right is a left, and about black that it's white - it's wrong nd there will be consequences.

 

[felipepepe]

Put it this way then: I spent 4 years makings the CRPG Book, and now that's out I'm kinda disappointed with the reception.

People loved it and send me many emails praising it, but I got almost no real criticism or debate. Just positive adjectives, complains about typos and "X is not an RPG" stuff.

I would LOVE to have a real review like Roxor wrote here. It would actually be useful, while the praise is basically ego-massage.

FFS, I wrote a timeline of the game industry from 1975 to 2015 and I got like ONE comment on that saying it was "cool".

 

[Infinitron]

Like you, I'm working hard to make the CRPG genre more popular - reviews like this are counter-productive.

This review is one of the best things the Codex has ever done for the CRPG genre. I only wish we could have published it earlier.

 

[HiddenX]

Put it this way then: I spent 4 years makings the CRPG Book, and now that's out I'm kinda disappointed with the reception.

People loved it and send me many emails praising it, but I got almost no real criticism or debate. Just positive adjectives, complains about typos and "X is not an RPG" stuff.

I would LOVE to have a real review like Roxor wrote here. It would actually be useful, while the praise is basically ego-massage.

FFS, I wrote a timeline of the game industry from 1975 to 2015 and I got like ONE comment on that saying it was "cool".

This is a bit off-topic, but do you remember when you started the book? We tried to review every review and make them somehow better - it didn't work out - too many different opinions.
In the CRPG book are a few games I wouldn't have included, and I disagree with some points in some reviews. But I respect your game selection, your editing and all the work that got into it.
The reviews cannot be consistent, because so many different writers have written them, but this is a plus and not a negative thing.
There's is simply no need to critisize such a good book and I hope you continue to work on it.

In a same way I respect Larians decisions how they created D:OS 2. Certainly I would have made some things different. Sometimes Swen tries to put in too many new features in a game instead of simply optimizing features that are already there.

 

[Fenix]

People loved it and send me many emails praising it, but I got almost no real criticism or debate.

I think that a serious symptome of a modern culture suffering fromsome disease.

 

[Mortmal]

Put it this way then: I spent 4 years makings the CRPG Book, and now that's out I'm kinda disappointed with the reception.

People loved it and send me many emails praising it, but I got almost no real criticism or debate. Just positive adjectives, complains about typos and "X is not an RPG" stuff.

I would LOVE to have a real review like Roxor wrote here. It would actually be useful, while the praise is basically ego-massage.

FFS, I wrote a timeline of the game industry from 1975 to 2015 and I got like ONE comment on that saying it was "cool".

You spend 4 years working on it and want to read something like felipepe's book is a disgrace an fail on every possible fronts ? If roxxor cant find a job as game reviewer, he certainly can find some in BDSM and humiliation, there's a public for that.

 

[Grauken]

You're doing exactly what many accuse Roxor of doing in his review (wrong accusations by the way), exaggerating to the point of getting in the way of honest discussion

Felipe is asking for honest criticism, which doesn't invalidate his book, but helps him to improve, if it comes with some barbs, he's a big boy who can take it

We need the RPG Codex and its antics, because the scales are tipped so much the other direction that almost all reviews from big publications or fansites are useless, the Codex reviews at least give you a better idea of what works or doesn't

 

[HiddenX]

Put it this way then: I spent 4 years makings the CRPG Book, and now that's out I'm kinda disappointed with the reception.

People loved it and send me many emails praising it, but I got almost no real criticism or debate. Just positive adjectives, complains about typos and "X is not an RPG" stuff.

I would LOVE to have a real review like Roxor wrote here. It would actually be useful, while the praise is basically ego-massage.

FFS, I wrote a timeline of the game industry from 1975 to 2015 and I got like ONE comment on that saying it was "cool".

You spend 4 years working on it and want to read something like felipepe's book is a disgrace an fail on every possible fronts ? If roxxor cant find a job as game reviewer, he certainly can find some in BDSM and humiliation, there's a public for that.

Yeah, but Roxor would only read the first 100 pages.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

HiddenX

The way I see things, what is good for the genre is that we have new developers making engrossing cRPGs with solid combat systems, decent character building, interesting itemization, fulfilling exploration, C&C, good writing, etc.

If they can improve and innovate the genre with new game systems or unusual settings while excelling in some of these features, even better.

The role of the cRPG enthusiast is to promote engrossing cRPGs (both old and new), supporting serious developers with their wallets and teaching a new generation how to appreciate these games.

The idea that we should shameless promote any cRPG just because it is an cRPG is arbitrary because cRPG is a not a honorific term. There are plenty of bad developers out there wasting everyone’s time with bad games.

In fact, this kind of attitude is antithetical to the promotion of engrossing cRPGs because they get mixed with bad cRPGs and bad development practices.

In order to promote proper cRPGs you need to separate the “wheat form the shaft”, which requires mercilessly criticising bad cRPGs, or (what is considerably worse) attempts to dumb down the genre to appeal to a larger audience.

It does not matter how well intentioned you think you are, your stance about this topic is completely wrong. To a certain extent, gullible sites like RPGWatch are contributing to make the genre worse, not better.

 

[Villagkouras]

Darth Roxor, any views on camera? I really find it abysmal, both in combat and in exploration, seriously one of the worst aspects of this game.

 

[HiddenX]

Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss
Reviewing games after not even playing a quarter of it is wrong and not even allowed at RPGWatch.
Hell after 40 hours I was still on the first island ... but enough of it I'm preaching against walls.

 

[Daedalos]

Darth Roxor, any views on camera? I really find it abysmal, both in combat and in exploration, seriously one of the worst aspects of this game.

The camera is shyte. The constant panning and turning, 'muh perspective.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss
Reviewing games after not even playing a quarter of it is wrong and not even allowed at RPGWatch.

It is not wrong if the aforementioned criticisms are objective and stand up to scrutiny. The problems Roxor mentioned are representative of the whole game. The way initiative works, the bad itemization and the poorly thought amor mechanics will not magically get better in the second part of the game.

Let’s be honest about this. You didn’t like the negative tone of the review and you want to defend the game, but you don’t provide any actual in detail arguments to support your preference. It is either generic statements “we need to support the genre!”, or blank accusations devoid of content “he didn’t play the whole game”.

 

[Zerth]

felipepepe please write a Codex-worthy review for Divinity: Original Sin 2.

Uh... why me? I haven't even finished D:OS1, and my PC can't run D:OS2.

Tigranes is much more qualified for this, and I agree with him that the Watch review comes out as fanboy-ish and full of empty adjetives. In fact, that's something that always bother me on the Watch reviews & curator: too many games are praised the exact same way.

For example:

• If you're searching for a unique RPG with lots of dialog, non-standard races, memorable NPCs, interesting party interaction and a cool story - here's your game!
• Good short story with many choices & consequences and skill checks, good character progression and spellcrafting.
• A modern CRPG with an interesting storyline and memorable characters!
• Classic isometric RPG with an original story, many dialogs, c&c, great nonlinear exploration & many options to build characters.
• Good Action RPG with RTwP-combat. Nice crafting system, solid character/party management, lots of exploring for loot, rich story and many quests - Fun

Here's five reviews from the Watch's curator page: Ember, Pillars of Eternity, Planescape: Torment, Tides of Numanuma and Tyranny. Which one is which? They all sound the same, you don't get a sense of the MASSIVE gap between the dialog in PST and the dialog in Ember.

Holy crap, all of that sounds like It has been generated by a predictive text bot. Creating ambiguous sentences from key and buzzwords.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Yeah, but Roxor would only read the first 100 pages.

indeed that fucker roxor never finishes the games he reviews

@Darth Roxor, any views on camera? I really find it abysmal, both in combat and in exploration, seriously one of the worst aspects of this game.

Honestly, I don't remember, and since I didn't jot it down in my notes.txt that I kept while playing, it must have been at least inoffensive to me.

Reviewing games after not even playing a quarter of it is wrong and not even allowed at RPGWatch.
Hell after 40 hours I was still on the first island ... but enough of it I'm preaching against walls.

Very well then.

Be a good mensch and please point me to things that are invalid in my revio because they undergo massive changes after those 40 hours. For some more context - I stopped at level 13, after lawnmowing most of the stuff west and north of Driftwood, finally quitting when I got to the cemetery to the east.

This is an honest request. I'll be waiting.

 

[Tigranes]

For me it is still hard to understand, why the Codex funded a game, rated it GotY 2017 and then publishes a review that pulled it to pieces.

Like you, I'm working hard to make the CRPG genre more popular - reviews like this are counter-productive.

We funded a game because we hope to support the making of better CRPGs.

That is a slightly different, and I would argue, a more worthy goal than "making CRPGs more popular".

 

[HiddenX]

Very well then.

Be a good mensch and please point me to things that are invalid in my revio because they undergo massive changes after those 40 hours. For some more context - I stopped at level 13, after lawnmowing most of the stuff west and north of Driftwood, finally quitting when I got to the cemetery to the east.

This is an honest request. I'll be waiting.

Okay - just a few:

I played with

• Ifan ben-Mezd (Ranged fighter) (Main character)
• Sebille (Two knives, Assassin)
• Lohse (Staff or two-Hander, but used mainly as a caster)
• Fane (Two wands, caster)

(End level 21)

The story of these 4 characters evolve over the course of the game, becoming more and more interesting with quite a few twists and choices to make. The character stories are interwoven into the main story and well written IMHO.

Standard fighting with element-casting and normal weapons alone does not work well on later bosses, you have to use more and more tricks like polymorph skills, teleporting, backstabbing, summoning and the advantage to use ranged attacks from higher grounds.
Characters with different mixed skillsets become more and more important. Relying on just one healer or buff up caster for example is fatal.

Special skills like "Monster Vision" that let you talk to spirits make the exploration even more interesting later in the game.

Using source points in combat becomes more and more important in the last part of the game. It adds a strategic level.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I played with

• Ifan ben-Mezd (Ranged fighter) (Main character)
• Sebille (Two knives, Assassin)
• Lohse (Staff or two-Hander, but used mainly as a caster)
• Fane (Two wands, caster)

Then your party was very similar to mine. Lohse ranger, Fane assassin, Red Prince sword and board, Beast aero/hydro caster.

The story of these 4 characters evolve over the course of the game, becoming more and more interesting with quite a few twists and choices to make. The character stories are interwoven into the main story and well written IMHO.

Origin characters are one of the few things that I comment upon positively.

Standard fighting with element-casting and normal weapons does not work on later bosses, you have to use more and more tricks like polymorph skills, teleporting, backstabbing, summoning and the advantage to use ranged attacks from higher grounds.

I don't see how high ground, teleporting, backstabbing and summoning are something separate from standard fighting in DOS2.

Also, summoning is wonky as hell, especially for initiative and turret AI. My first character was a summoner but then I rerolled to ranger because I couldn't even with all the instances of turrets nuking my ass more than the enemies with their dumb targeting.

Characters with different mixed skillsets become more and more important. Relying on just one healer or buff up caster for example is fatal.

This is already important in Fort Joy. And, like I noted, given how inconsequential/unrewarding it is to mix skillsets (or respec on the fly), this is hardly anything in the game's favour.

Special skills like "Monster Vision" that let you talk to spirits make the exploration even more interesting later in the game.

Now this just takes the cake.

I wish I hadn't skipped talking about spirit vision in the revio, because it's one of the dumbest things in the game. It's inconvenient as hell because you have to keep recasting it (why won't it just stay on forever ffs), in my experience the VAST majority of its uses is dull flavour dialogue with spirits that go "blablabla" at you and nothing else, and its only practical application is revealing superobvious puzzle hints that might as well be straight up solutions (like the elemental tiles under Driftwood).

Spirit vision is basically a much worse pet pal.

Using source points in combat becomes more and more important in the last part of the game. It adds a strategic level.

Now if only sauce points weren't so easy (and inconvenient) to refresh.

 

[Jaedar]

Like you, I'm working hard to make the CRPG genre more popular - reviews like this are counter-productive.

This review is one of the best things the Codex has ever done for the CRPG genre. I only wish we could have published it earlier.

You'd best explain yourself Mr "I'd have preferred to publish a more positive review". Would it have been the best thing the codex has done if it was more positive?

We funded a game because we hope to support the making of better CRPGs.

That is a slightly different, and I would argue, a more worthy goal than "making CRPGs more popular".

If a developer has the choice of making his game more popular or better, he'll almost always choose the former. A codexer (and I would argue most "true fans" even though that term is a bit disgusting) wants him to choose the latter.

 

[Infinitron]

You'd best explain yourself Mr "I'd have preferred to publish a more positive review". Would it have been the best thing the codex has done if it was more positive?

If "more positive" means a Tigranes review rather than an RPGWatch review, then possibly.

It's always a tradeoff. Maybe the devs wouldn't take the review as seriously without Roxor's hard edge - or maybe Roxor's hard edge means they'll dismiss us as unpleasable spergs who can be safely ignored. The ideal of course is to do both types of reviews - neutral-positive with lots of criticism and tough love, and outright negative.