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Codex Review RPG Codex Review: Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous

CryosR

Barely Literate
Joined
Apr 26, 2023
Messages
2
I enjoyed the game, though I wish I could skip right to Drezen act 3 and that turning off crusade management didn't lock you out of content. I use the Toybox Mod to improve on those features, probably a bad idea but... I guess I just want a Pathfinder rules based video game and Kingmaker didn't quite do it for me...
 
Joined
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Messages
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I wonder how long Baldurs Gate series is front to back. Probably similar to Wrath.

The length is hardly the games biggest issue though.
I'd wager BG+ToSC is 100 hours for a completionist. BG2 +ToB is probably 200-250 for a completionist. The major difference is that BG is comparatively freeform. There is rarely anything in your way, like crusade management or even being constrained to the overworld path. Both WotR and KM feel like they are constantly slowing the player down. Even dialogues.
 

Kev Inkline

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Messages
5,016
A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I also found WOTR way too long. Twin Elms Syndrome corrupts yet another game that could have been great.
Is Twin Elms syndrome one where you stop playing the game at a (certain) choke point (because of the story gets jarring etc etc)? Because I know I dropped PoE at TE.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
11,587
A fare more focused / simple experience such as Solasta (and its story DLC), I finished in a couple of days, barely taking a breath in between. And those aren't ultra short stories either, in particular in combation. Solasta employs a design ethos competely alien to Owlcat though, which is:

Less (and more unique where possible) is more. There are designated DUNGEON areas with barely 2 or 3 fights.
Good post, glad I'm not the only one who noticed this about Solasta. A combat-focused tactical RPG that doesn't actually have that much combat. Yes, developers, you can do this!
Solasta has little apart from combat, since exploration is unfortunately rather lacking; it's just that the dungeons / areas tend to be fairly small, meaning only a few combat encounters can be present, though the encounters themselves can be large and complex. :M
 

ga♥

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
7,443
I wonder how long Baldurs Gate series is front to back. Probably similar to Wrath.

The length is hardly the games biggest issue though.

I wonder how long Baldurs Gate series is front to back. Probably similar to Wrath.

The length is hardly the games biggest issue though.
I'd wager BG+ToSC is 100 hours for a completionist. BG2 +ToB is probably 200-250 for a completionist. The major difference is that BG is comparatively freeform. There is rarely anything in your way, like crusade management or even being constrained to the overworld path. Both WotR and KM feel like they are constantly slowing the player down. Even dialogues.

bg2+tob completionist run is more likely around 60-70 hours, probably less...
 

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,531
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
I wonder how long Baldurs Gate series is front to back. Probably similar to Wrath.

The length is hardly the games biggest issue though.
BG and BG2 is an interesting comparison. I am curious how many trash encounters WotR has compared to BG or BG2.

I don’t know if my issues with WotR were due to Owlcat’s encounter design or pathfinder’s systems in general. Absent meta builds, I cannot imagine going through the map with a suboptimal build.
 

Kev Inkline

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Messages
5,016
A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I wonder how long Baldurs Gate series is front to back. Probably similar to Wrath.

The length is hardly the games biggest issue though.

I wonder how long Baldurs Gate series is front to back. Probably similar to Wrath.

The length is hardly the games biggest issue though.
I'd wager BG+ToSC is 100 hours for a completionist. BG2 +ToB is probably 200-250 for a completionist. The major difference is that BG is comparatively freeform. There is rarely anything in your way, like crusade management or even being constrained to the overworld path. Both WotR and KM feel like they are constantly slowing the player down. Even dialogues.

bg2+tob completionist run is more likely around 60-70 hours, probably less...
Wrong. The median (145 average) is 150h without tob, which adds another 27h.

https://howlongtobeat.com/game/810
 

Fedora Master

Arcane
Patron
Edgy
Joined
Jun 28, 2017
Messages
27,134
I was thinking: Compare the average BG dungeons like say Ulcaster or the Candlekeep basement to the average dungeon in Wrath. Ulcaster has maybe 20 kobolds and a handful of traps, Candlekeep has 7 or 8 encounters. Wrath dungeons are at least thrice that.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,938
Location
Russia
Just the opening tombs in candlekeep has 5 mob packs, followed by skelingtons doppel rooms doppel elminster more doppels spiders and party fight. Wotr act 2 inner castle is fairly similar. But of course wotr is just more difficult, its not like encounter = 1 ghast.
 

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
Yeah it's no comparison. Okay if you play your cards right then you'll start cutting through your enemies like butter at some point in act 3 or 4. But an 'encounter' in a BG dungeon is, sometimes, a succubus, and most often 3 gibberlings and a kobold. Firewine wouldn't even qualify as a dungeon if the pathfinding wasn't horrible and constantly put dynaheir on a kobold commando's line of sight.
 

ga♥

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
7,443
I wonder how long Baldurs Gate series is front to back. Probably similar to Wrath.

The length is hardly the games biggest issue though.

I wonder how long Baldurs Gate series is front to back. Probably similar to Wrath.

The length is hardly the games biggest issue though.
I'd wager BG+ToSC is 100 hours for a completionist. BG2 +ToB is probably 200-250 for a completionist. The major difference is that BG is comparatively freeform. There is rarely anything in your way, like crusade management or even being constrained to the overworld path. Both WotR and KM feel like they are constantly slowing the player down. Even dialogues.

bg2+tob completionist run is more likely around 60-70 hours, probably less...
Wrong. The median (145 average) is 150h without tob, which adds another 27h.

https://howlongtobeat.com/game/810
It seems to me you guys never played the games, and just use that website. Do you seriously remember taking 250 hours to play BG2.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,488
It seems to me you guys never played the games, and just use that website. Do you seriously remember taking 250 hours to play BG2.
BG2 has a reputation for being a long RPG with a ton of content. 100-150 for SoA and 20-30 for ToB seems about right. Over 200 would be going really slow.
 
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
2,477
Location
The Present
I think part of the disconnect is that Pathfinder (D&D 3.75) is far more complex and fiddly. BG combat is going to be positioning, a few attack commands, an occasional spell, and an infrequent item. BG2 requires far more spells and responsiveness, but still pales in comparison to WotR unless it's a set-piece battle. Outside of the first trench area, you're rarely going to be auto-attacking through combat unless you've got a fully developed Haplo AoO build. Every character is very fiddly. Couple this with trash mobs that are often way tuned up, and people start using the word "slog".
 

Kev Inkline

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Messages
5,016
A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I wonder how long Baldurs Gate series is front to back. Probably similar to Wrath.

The length is hardly the games biggest issue though.

I wonder how long Baldurs Gate series is front to back. Probably similar to Wrath.

The length is hardly the games biggest issue though.
I'd wager BG+ToSC is 100 hours for a completionist. BG2 +ToB is probably 200-250 for a completionist. The major difference is that BG is comparatively freeform. There is rarely anything in your way, like crusade management or even being constrained to the overworld path. Both WotR and KM feel like they are constantly slowing the player down. Even dialogues.

bg2+tob completionist run is more likely around 60-70 hours, probably less...
Wrong. The median (145 average) is 150h without tob, which adds another 27h.

https://howlongtobeat.com/game/810
It seems to me you guys never played the games, and just use that website. Do you seriously remember taking 250 hours to play BG2.
I hate games, but that’s not even close to 250h.
 
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
2,477
Location
The Present
That's a range. I estimated up to 250 hours for a completionist doing BG2 and the expansion. Also consider it from a first time player prospective. Still, the point is that it's a long game but it doesn't feel long compared to Owlcat. It's much more free form. Fewer cutscenes, in-engine or otherwise. The dialogues are not bloated. Lesser NPC maintenance. Fewer gates and timers. No abstracted strategy layers. Less plot urgency. More exploration through areas, rather than shuttling your party to and from small zones with specific tasks. The nature of the encounters and combat ruleset make for faster play, especially in BG1. That was the point.
 

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
I didn't really feel like BG2 or WotR felt any longer than one another. I'd classify them as more or less on the same level. Only I was left wishing WotR's last chapters had more to them.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,488
Did this review just unironically refer to a rotatable camera as a...... downgrade? Did that actually happen?
I've yet to see any bird's-eye-view game where camera rotation added anything other than busywork that gets in the way of fun. Static view is best, designed-for-one-particular-view-but-with-the-option-to-rotate like Wasteland 3 is also acceptable.
 

Immortal

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
5,059
Location
Safe Space - Don't Bulli
I also found WOTR way too long. Twin Elms Syndrome corrupts yet another game that could have been great.

Mehhh..

PoE can be finished in like 20 hours.. From the minute you step in Twin Elms you're basically an hour or two from finishing the game unless you fart around.

WOTR is like 5000 hours long and most of it is running your face through hordes of encounters, slamming through war and peace novella's of dialogue between 2 static npc's just standing there staring at each other boringly and back tracking through walmart-sigil over and over.


EDIT:
I also found WOTR way too long. Twin Elms Syndrome corrupts yet another game that could have been great.
Is Twin Elms syndrome one where you stop playing the game at a (certain) choke point (because of the story gets jarring etc etc)? Because I know I dropped PoE at TE.

nvm, I misunderstood the reference. I thought you were implying Twin Elms made the game "double in length" or something to an excessive point that it's unfinishable.
I would agree the quality / interest for me completely drops off there but not because of game duration. PoE is fucking short if you beeline it.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
11,587
Did this review just unironically refer to a rotatable camera as a...... downgrade? Did that actually happen?
I've yet to see any bird's-eye-view game where camera rotation added anything other than busywork that gets in the way of fun. Static view is best, designed-for-one-particular-view-but-with-the-option-to-rotate like Wasteland 3 is also acceptable.
For an actual bird's-eye view, camera rotation would be unnecessary, but for something resembling an isometric view, camera rotation is often invaluable during turn-based, tactical combat. :M
 

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