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Review RPG Codex Review: Pillars of Eternity, by PrimeJunta

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Glanced over the magic section. The author spends 10 paragraphs saying the magic system is shit in so many words. In the 11th paragraph the author suddenly proceeds to congratulate everyone because we have a deep and meaningful magic system on our hands. What the shit? Was it written by 10 different people and then patched up together with no editing or is the author some kind of special retard? If the system is good, then why didn't you give a single argument FOR it? This is argumentation structure 101. I don't have time for this, if I wanted to read some 13 year old dipshit's opinion, I would've turned to Obsidian's forums or something. Didn't expect it of the codex, this is seriously retarded... Stopped reading after that.

I would totally agree with you, if those 10 paragraphs really were calling the magic system shit. Looks like you never started reading.

In the real world, it seems to be calling the magic system... wait for it... 'works pretty well but with numerous flaws that drag it down'. But wait, that doesn't make sense! Is that a fanboi or h8er? I are confused! IT MUST BE ONE OR THE OTHER
 

Immortal

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Glanced over the magic section. The author spends 10 paragraphs saying the magic system is shit in so many words. In the 11th paragraph the author suddenly proceeds to congratulate everyone because we have a deep and meaningful magic system on our hands. What the shit? Was it written by 10 different people and then patched up together with no editing or is the author some kind of special retard? If the system is good, then why didn't you give a single argument FOR it? This is argumentation structure 101. I don't have time for this, if I wanted to read some 13 year old dipshit's opinion, I would've turned to Obsidian's forums or something. Didn't expect it of the codex, this is seriously retarded... Stopped reading after that.

I would totally agree with you, if those 10 paragraphs really were calling the magic system shit. Looks like you never started reading.

In the real world, it seems to be calling the magic system... wait for it... 'works pretty well but with numerous flaws that drag it down'. But wait, that doesn't make sense! Is that a fanboi or h8er? I are confused! IT MUST BE ONE OR THE OTHER


Didn't you help write / proof read the review?

Oh yea - this was like the only part I read:

Review edited by Tigranes, screenshots by Gord.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
I proofread the review. I'm also an Obsidian moderator. Any other irrelevant posts?

Given that I post every day on the Codex, my opinions about various games should be pretty transparent.
 

Telengard

Arcane
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Messages
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Glanced over the magic section. The author spends 10 paragraphs saying the magic system is shit in so many words. In the 11th paragraph the author suddenly proceeds to congratulate everyone because we have a deep and meaningful magic system on our hands. What the shit? Was it written by 10 different people and then patched up together with no editing or is the author some kind of special retard? If the system is good, then why didn't you give a single argument FOR it? This is argumentation structure 101. I don't have time for this, if I wanted to read some 13 year old dipshit's opinion, I would've turned to Obsidian's forums or something. Didn't expect it of the codex, this is seriously retarded... Stopped reading after that.

I would totally agree with you, if those 10 paragraphs really were calling the magic system shit. Looks like you never started reading.

In the real world, it seems to be calling the magic system... wait for it... 'works pretty well but with numerous flaws that drag it down'. But wait, that doesn't make sense! Is that a fanboi or h8er? I are confused! IT MUST BE ONE OR THE OTHER
I will illustrate, because it is not an issue of opinion. That is fine. Rather, it is an issue of Lack of Foundation [red markup ink]. Which the piece is riddled with, and thus would be destined to get the infamous See Me After Class designation.
By the time IE game magic would start to really hit its stride, towards the end of Pillars, underlying weaknesses start to emerge, and it never develops the depth and emergent complexity of a Baldur's Gate 2.
Since Accuracy goes up with wizard level, Slicken is likely to score a Graze even on very high-level enemies, and since the duration is quite short to start with, there's little difference in practice between Graze, Hit or even Crit.
High-level wizards get to cast first-level spells per-encounter, with no strategic cost. This means that often the most efficient way to play a high-level wizard is to chain-cast Slicken in every fight, while the rest of the party pummels the prone enemies to death.
Damage over time (DOT) status effects have a different problem: in many cases, the numbers have been nerfed to insignificance.
One last point is the relative poverty of high-level magic.

And all that supposedly leads to:
Despite the weaknesses, Pillars’ magic and spell-like special abilities work together well enough. There are a lot of features to explore, synergies to discover, and tactics to hone. The system is complex enough to serve as a foundation for rich and varied gameplay.
But it doesn't lead there. Nowhere in the preceding paragraphs has the WHY of "it works well enough" been explored. It may be true, but the review doesn't lay the foundation showing it, so the audience wouldn't know it one way or the other (unless they have already played the game and so are only reading the review as an editorial opinion). For instance, why are their plenty of tactics to explore and hone when Sicken does it all? Where are these tactics? What do they consist of? What makes them fun?

When illustrating a point in a review, this is basic, foundational stuff. ie Reviewing 101.
 

Shevek

Arcane
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Sep 20, 2003
Messages
1,570
He talks about the improvement of the low level arcane experience and how things work fairly well in PotD. There was other stuff too. Useless to point it out since you obviously intentionally left it out of your cherry picked BS.
 

Telengard

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He talks about the improvement of the low level arcane experience and how things work fairly well in PotD. There was other stuff too. Useless to point it out since you obviously intentionally left it out of your cherry picked BS.
I illustrated all main points. He stated that low-levels were fun and more complex than IE, but that does not explain how the game is more complex and fun than IE. In fact, stating that only the beginning is fun and complex illustrates that the overall game is exactly the opposite. (Not intentionally so, I'm sure.)

And again, none of these points are explained. Which is key. In a review (rather than an editorial opinion), these things must be explained. Or you get a very low grade on your paper.
 

Cadmus

Arcane
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Messages
4,280
Omg this is so fucking long I don't think I'm even gonna read it. It's also not fun to read, judging from the first 2 paragraphs. PrimeRetard indeed.
 

Zed

Codex Staff
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Codex USB, 2014
The 2016 GOTY vote early next year will put every game in its place.
 

Tigranes

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Messages
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Telengard

I don't disagree, I think it just comes down to how you're reading that last bit. I simply read the section as a whole as "works OK but marred by x y z", and so talking about the flaws make sense. Now if he said "marred by x y z but anyway OMG SUPER COOL BEST SYSTEM" then I'd go WTF.

My personal opinion is that the Graze/Hit/Crit system and the 3-defences system are pretty cool and already synergise really well... when you actually use it, that is, and that's a big fat If at the present. They would be better off abandoning this misguided adherence to "no hard counters" and introducing hard abilities that allow the player to intuitively manipulate the system. For example, a defensive spell that makes someone immune to all Fortitude attacks - a spell cast frequently by, say, enemy wizards as well as players - would actually force players to use the system. Not only should spell grazes be nerfed as the review suggests, there should be qualitatively different ways in which grazes are less effective - e.g. grazes only working on engaged enemies, or abilities that allow graze immunity... those aren't good suggestions themselves, but they need to find a way to make grazes something you purposefully use to try and make it past heavily armoured/protected opponents, fulfilling the original design goals, and not just something that makes you feel like 'i'm damaging everybody no matter what i do so eh whatever'.

In other words, POE xpack/sequel needs to make sure that the aspects of the system that reward deliberate manipulation of the rules are maximised, and that aspects of the system encouraging dumb brute force play are minimised. Ironically, if half the things Codex say in their dreams about Josh Sawyer were true he'd have it taken care of...
 

Telengard

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My personal opinion is that the Graze/Hit/Crit system and the 3-defences system are pretty cool and already synergise really well... when you actually use it, .
Oho, now that's the stuff that should have been in there. I think we have the topic sentence for the missing transitional section right here.

Follow it up with a concrete example of that synergy working, and then a separate illustration that counterbalances the Sicken example, in order to show how the system can be fun despite that Sicken example, and then we would have a sensible flow leading to the conclusive paragraph.

Then the gentle readers who never played POE would understand what it was that the reviewer liked about the gameplay and why.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
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Messages
10,350
*shrug* Those are not my opinions, not PrimeJunta's, so I don't know if he agrees. I'd just write my own review if I wanted to (and then we'd be nearly at 7!), but I don't.

I think the easiest way for any player to check the synergy at work is the Adra Dragon on PoTD with a non-munchkin party. That's one of the few (too few) situations where enemy stats are high enough to force you to hobble their defences, and you're only fighting 1 enemy so it's easy to keep track. I've shelved POE until xpack so excuse me for fuzzy details, but there you find cases where, say, the player who had been robotically recycling a few spells like Adragan and Mental Binding left and right discovers those are only hitting once on a blue moon. While many players, idiots as they are, will choose to just reload until their shitty 'tactic' lucks out or complain on the Internet, others will realise that things like Scrolls of Valour and the Eldritch Gaze potion, which previously looked like pointless crafted items, can now be a key ticket to producing more reliable strategies for the party. The player then begins organising the party: e.g. Eder, previously able to tank things without batting an eye, now finds he has to stay back, and maybe becomes the support guy reading Scrolls of Valour for the spellcaster who's trying to debuff the dragon. Since the 3-defenses system operates for most abilities and not just spell effects, learning and manipulating them becomes even more important in such a situation: there's no point paralysing the dragon with a lucky Mental Binding on a high-stat Cipher if your paladin goes to whack it and misses all the time with his special ability.

The first problem POE has is that it's currently very difficult to encounter such a numerical challenge. This is compounded by the Graze problem mentioned in the review. So people will just messily hit and graze their way to victory and not even realise how inefficiently they're fighting. A well built 6-player party on Level 12, half the time, won't even be too fazed by Adra - (though the converse of that is, anybody complaining about Adra's "bloat" isn't really manipulating the combat system efficiently, either.)

The second problem is that POE already offers many ways to manipulate the system precisely to change the battlefield, but they do not appear that way to the players. A Globe of Invulnerability is easy to understand: total immunity to all low level spells, and you get a huge shiny globe that shows it, and enough enemies use it even in BG1 for you to learn the lesson. POE does subpar on all of those points. Nobody takes Eldritch Gaze potions or Scrolls of Valour seriously. Combine that with the shitty ethereal spell effects that I've criticised since the very first videos, and you get a situation where players, once again, brute force way to victory only thanks to the low difficulty levels, without even understanding that they were targeting the strongest defence of the critter or something.

To me, POE has been surprisingly enjoyable solo for this reason: the limited parameters, the limited chaos, and the added difficulty (at least once you mod down the retarded XP bonuses) are all conducive to an experience where you're really calculating what's going on because you can't just charge in. Now, if only the game would be like that to begin with, then we'd have something really cool on the table.
 
Weasel
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At last, the neutral-positive review


TAh7kou.jpg
 

Shevek

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The notion that the review lacks supporting details is laughable. This thing has more concrete details and weighed arguments than the other 3 combined.
 

Lucky

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Messages
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Hands of Fate also deserves a review... and Card Hunter... and Toukiden: Kiwami... and Way of the Samurai 4... and Hyperdimensional Neptunia... and Chroma Squad... and Invisible Inc... and...

One of these things is not like the others.
 

Jack Dandy

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Divinity: Original Sin 2
4 POE reviews and still no Serpent in the Staglands review, thanks Infinitron .
Hands of Fate also deserves a review... and Card Hunter... and Toukiden: Kiwami... and Way of the Samurai 4... and Hyperdimensional Neptunia... and Chroma Squad... and Invisible Inc... and...
Come on. You know there's a big difference between these titles and SiTS.
 

Grotesque

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Divinity: Original Sin Divinity: Original Sin 2
When all others around the world would have forgotten about Pillars of Eternity, it will be remembered on the Codex as a way to discredit yourself by believing it's a good game despite it's small flaws.
A warm "Fuck off!" to the actual and next reviewer of Pillars of Eternity here on the RPG Codex with the message, "Nobody gives a shit anymore, the train left the station a long time ago."
 

SausageInYourFace

Codexian Sausage
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Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. Pathfinder: Wrath
That's THE review I agree with. Good job confirming my opinions are shared by other people, I can't decide for myself if I like something without official approval!

Whats your point, FeelTheRads? surprised someone likes the reviews best that coincides with his own opinion the most?

good review, most fans go yay! by default
bad review, most haters go yay! by default

all of them critical thinkers, naturally.

Omg this is so fucking long I don't think I'm even gonna read it. It's also not fun to read, judging from the first 2 paragraphs. PrimeRetard indeed.

You know what Cadmus, thats the second time I notice that your "critique" of someone elses writing is 'lol didn't read'. Perhaps you shouldn't call other people retards but learn to fucking read instead or just shut your impudent mouth. If you didn't read something, don't bother commenting on the quality of its writing, its fucking ridiculous.
 

mindx2

Codex Roaming East Coast Reporter
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Perusing his PC Museum shelves.
Codex 2012 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire RPG Wokedex Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
... and so the long and weary Codexian Civil War continued with no clear winner with many a wounded and butthurt member languishing in the many PoE review threads strewn throughout the forum...
 

crawlkill

Kill all boxed game owners. Kill! Kill!
Joined
May 9, 2012
Messages
674
Didn't IE mod do it like 3 days after release? Could be wrong.

The last two times I've tried to install IEMod (two different computers) it hasn't shown up, not sure it's compatible with the current version anymore.

Anyway, the dichotomy between an encounter power and a daily power is meaningless when sleeping means nothing but "eventually you might need to run away and go back to town." It's not like when you run out of supplies you're gonna go, "Whelp, guess I can't clear this dungeon! It's beaten me!" There's no interesting failure state to do with taking too much time, which is the only meaningful rest mechanic there can ever be--if you have to get through a dungeon without resting more than X times or else Worse Things Happen in the World, that's meaningful. If you can only rest X times between meaningless visits to the village and back, everything is terrible. And it doesn't -really- make much sense either way, because apparently fuckers just stand around in dungeons -forever- and have no kind of communication between them, and sleeping eight hours doesn't result in the entire rest of the cave falling upon you en masse while you sleep. your enemies can't respond to your presence. tell me it's immersive that invading an enemy's fortress over a period of two and a half days, with no response from the fortress but what you then choose to walk into.

Concept: Remove the 4e concept of the "short rest," make it instant, call a rest a "short rest" and have it make 2-5 minutes, and introduce mechanical or narrative consequences for completing a dungeon in over X seconds, where 2-5 minutes is a significant proportion of X. Then, and only then, can limited rests be meaningful--when the world around you changes based on passing time. It also ups the value of being good at combat--even if all encounters are basically easy, being -quick and efficient- in combat becomes important. Maybe each downed PC drops a minute off the timer. And if the players fuck it up, hey, that's fine! But they might find that they've got a worse situation at the end of the dungeon than they otherwise would've.
 

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