Review RPG Codex Review: Pillars of Eternity, by PrimeJunta

[Rake]

Easily bullied, eh? At the end of the game you basically choose which god will rule over the others. Not what I would call a low-level adventure.

The term god is also relative. The Aztecs thought Cortez was god, so? The campaign, as it roles out, can easily be seen as mid level faire. Its all perspective.

So the gods aren't that impresive, the man that shaped Eora's history through the ages wasn't that impresive, the ancient vampire-wirards weren't that impressive, ancint dragons aren't that impressive, the ancient dragon that feeds on adra and souls and his unique circumstances allow him to count as an eldrich abomination in PoE setting (and it is the equivalent to BG2's Demogorgon in gameplay terms)apparently isn't that impressive.
That begs the question, what the fuck is considered impressive and High level in PoE's setting? Because nothing in the lore so far supports anything that is High level by your criteria. The long lost civilasation that created the gods themselves? Caed Nua was their Witch-King (and someone so terrible that themselves were the ones that broght him down) And guess what? We already met him along the chosen of the gods, ancient dragons and all that "low to mid level" things.
Maybe in PoE 2 Eora will suffer an Alien invasion, Burning Legion style...

 

[Excidium II]

The expansion gives you a hint of what to expect for PoE 2

 

[Azarkon]

Azarkon:

Summons: see chanters and items

Also, to be fair, some of that stuff, time stops, etc, are not really present in low level or even mid level DnD. I would hold off until PoE2 to make better apples to apples comparisons.

Forgot about chanters being a magic class, but that raises its own issue, actually - why is it that only chanters have summons? Why none for clerics and wizards, and so few for druids? Just because a mechanic is present in the magic system, doesn't indicate it is used well. In this case, the other casting classes desperately need variety in their spells. Too much specialization is also capable of being a problem, as it leads to one-dimensional classes that have no existence outside of their specific role.

 

[Bubbles]

Why none for clerics and wizards

Wizards do have a summon, my little nublet.

 

[Azarkon]

Why none for clerics and wizards

Wizards do have a summon, my little nublet.

Tokenism, in-game as in life, doesn't count. And I'd rather not talk about a spell that thinks it's a project image spell but ends up being a summon because the 'project image' is only cosmetic.

 

[Shevek]

So the gods aren't that impresive, the man that shaped Eora's history through the ages wasn't that impresive, the ancient vampire-wirards weren't that impressive, ancint dragons aren't that impressive,

Really? I found it impressive. I dont think I stated otherwise. I am just saying that we do not have any conception of what will come after. So, our conception of high level vs mid level, etc, may not apply in this instance. I know you really want to drive your point home, whatever it is, but folks on forums tend to see meaning in the posts of others that is not there simply to validate their own opinions. Basically, I would suggest that you look at the contuinity and context of the discussion first rather than projecting your beliefs/opinions on it.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Easily bullied, eh? At the end of the game you basically choose which god will rule over the others. Not what I would call a low-level adventure.

The term god is also relative. The Aztecs thought Cortez was god, so? The campaign, as it roles out, can easily be seen as mid level faire. Its all perspective.

So the gods aren't that impresive, the man that shaped Eora's history through the ages wasn't that impresive, the ancient vampire-wirards weren't that impressive, ancint dragons aren't that impressive, the ancient dragon that feeds on adra and souls and his unique circumstances allow him to count as an eldrich abomination in PoE setting (and it is the equivalent to BG2's Demogorgon in gameplay terms)apparently isn't that impressive.
That begs the question, what the fuck is considered impressive and High level in PoE's setting? Because nothing in the lore so far supports anything that is High level by your criteria. The long lost civilasation that created the gods themselves? Caed Nua was their Witch-King (and someone so terrible that themselves were the ones that broght him down) And guess what? We already met him along the chosen of the gods, ancient dragons and all that "low to mid level" things.
Maybe in PoE 2 Eora will suffer an Alien invasion, Burning Legion style...

I thought everything we fought was impressive, but not indestructible by a good mid level adventurer party. The Adra Dragon was the hardest fight in the game, but not comparable to Demogorgon power level in setting terms (powerful demon prince), being just a specially powerful dragon. We also fight the Spirit of Od Nua, who was imprisoned and demented, not the guy as he was in life.

You should notice that the player doesn't fight any god or goddess themselves, who I imagine are beings of incredible power by PoE's standards.

I like the clear Good vs Evil setting of D&D in general, but PoE's setting is more mysterious which is a novelty and credit goes to its creators: Sawyer, Avellone, Ziets, Fenstermaker, Patel and others.

 

[Lhynn]

the problem with poe isnt that theyve ran out of shit to throw at you, they have enough D&D books to steal ideas from anyway. The biggest problem is that the shit is boring, it has no character or personality whatsoever. Its amazing that some people can actually enjoy this tired crap, but more power to them.

 

[Azarkon]

So the gods aren't that impresive, the man that shaped Eora's history through the ages wasn't that impresive, the ancient vampire-wirards weren't that impressive, ancint dragons aren't that impressive,

Really? I found it impressive. I dont think I stated otherwise. I am just saying that we do not have any conception of what will come after. So, our conception of high level vs mid level, etc, may not apply in this instance. I know you really want to drive your point home, whatever it is, but folks on forums tend to see meaning in the posts of others that is not there simply to validate their own opinions. Basically, I would suggest that you look at the contuinity and context of the discussion first rather than projecting your beliefs/opinions on it.

I think it is less useful to wonder about what high-level Pillars of Eternity is than to ask about whether Sawyerism is capable of being overcome.

Unless the 'is it balanced?' mentality is itself changed, there won't be a sudden switch to AD&D-style magic, regardless of level.

Imagine how you'd do Timestop in this game, then imagine how it'd be nerfed till it's little else than a free disengage, and you have your answer.

 

[Ismaul]

4 reviews? This tells us clearly that at the very least the game's pretty divisive, but some people are trying really hard to justify why it's acceptable to like it.

 

[Excidium II]

All is in the air until PoE 2 is released anyway

 

[Irenaeus II]

All is in the air until PoE 2 is released anyway

What is in the air? The game is great as it stands alone.

some people are trying really hard to justify why it's acceptable to like it.

Hey, just answering people rationally instead of going in emotional rants like it is acceptable for "some people" who deslike it.

 

[Excidium II]

All is in the air until PoE 2 is released anyway

What is in the air? The game is great as it stands alone.

High level content and what comes after dragons and ancient vampires

 

[Irenaeus II]

All is in the air until PoE 2 is released anyway

What is in the air? The game is great as it stands alone.

High level content and what comes after dragons and ancient vampires

Maybe in PoE 2 you start a new low level character in another part of the world

I wouldn't mind, as long as it tells a good story and it's FUN to play.

 

[Lhynn]

4 reviews? This tells us clearly that at the very least the game's pretty divisive, but some people are trying really hard to justify why it's acceptable to like it.

The only reason the opinion of this game is split is because obsidian did it. Had it been ANYONE else, it would have been fucking crucified on the spot.

 

[Shevek]

You rolled a critical fail on that response, Lhynn. Its ok, you can try again. I won't dog you for it.

4 reviews? This tells us clearly that at the very least the game's pretty divisive, but some people are trying really hard to justify why it's acceptable to like it.

And some people are trying really hard to explain why its not. So what? Its the Codex.

 

[Shevek]

So the gods aren't that impresive, the man that shaped Eora's history through the ages wasn't that impresive, the ancient vampire-wirards weren't that impressive, ancint dragons aren't that impressive,

Really? I found it impressive. I dont think I stated otherwise. I am just saying that we do not have any conception of what will come after. So, our conception of high level vs mid level, etc, may not apply in this instance. I know you really want to drive your point home, whatever it is, but folks on forums tend to see meaning in the posts of others that is not there simply to validate their own opinions. Basically, I would suggest that you look at the contuinity and context of the discussion first rather than projecting your beliefs/opinions on it.

I think it is less useful to wonder about what high-level Pillars of Eternity is than to ask about whether Sawyerism is capable of being overcome.

Unless the 'is it balanced?' mentality is itself changed, there won't be a sudden switch to AD&D-style magic, regardless of level.

Imagine how you'd do Timestop in this game, then imagine how it'd be nerfed till it's little else than a free disengage, and you have your answer.

Though I dont agree with every bit of Sawyer's design philosophy, I dont think it has been a hindrance to PoE. Sawyer has stated he wants to see contigencies, sequencers, etc in the game btw. So, there is some hint at where he sees high level casting going. Moreover, Wizards, Druids and Priests are fairly imbalanced with their per encounter low level spell casting. So, I dont think it holds water to say the game suffer due to strict adherance to balance when unbalanced magic already exists.

 

[Harold]

Maybe in PoE 2 you start a new low level character in another part of the world

Five years after what came to be known as the Watcher Civil War, you awake from a coma on a strange ship adrift at sea. You are the Exile, last of the Watchers. The first companion you encounter is the Grinning Grandmother, a mysterious old cipher who becomes your teacher and helps you regain your connection to the Force Adra. Eventually you have to travel to four different planets regions to collect or kill four animancers. After that the true evil of the Grinning Grandmother reveals itself. During the endgame bossfight you have to defeat three floating blunderbusses that she controls with her mind.

MCA wrote this plot synopsis for the sequel before he left. Stumbling upon it, while on the shitter reading the official codex steam curator review for POE, Feargus smiled and yelled 'SLAM FUCKIN DUNK', as his shit hit the toilet water with a splash.

 

[tdphys]

4 reviews? This tells us clearly that at the very least the game's pretty divisive, but some people are trying really hard to justify why it's acceptable to like it.

No, It's because for a lot of people, the relevancy of the Codex lies in lamenting the "Decline" , inflating the halcyon good old days like husks in a retirement home; the arrival of Incline --, a respected game company creating a well-written, decent-production value rpg threatens their perceived niche in society. Hence the need to crucify it by posting reviews filled with subjective nonsense by people who couldn't even be bothered to play the game.

There are a few main subjective nonsense criticism on the codex to PIllars:

Hwerp Drp; -- kneejerk reaction to a competent effort of Obsidian to craft a unique world along with new IP. People compaining about this are just too intellectually lazy to decide whether or not the linguistics are consistent and purposefully used, thus they write it off as trite...

Oh Noes- Magic Sucks must have hard counters: -- kneejerk reaction of BG2 gamers that can't play a game where they aren't little godlets roaming around. Everything else is ... boring.

Combat is too easy- optimal play is tank and spank: and optimal play in some games is a wand of cloudkill


Pillars is not perfect, but it is a good game, has innovative ideas and plot, good world-building, good writing, and challenging combat; It can be enjoyed if you can get over codex-hyperbole-trolling and learn to appreciate it for what it is and not what it isn't.

PrimeJunta's review is a review of someone who's uncovered the good parts of the game by playing it, and is doing the rest of the codex a favor by showing them the true way to cast aside their canes and learn to walk again.

 

[Lhynn]

You rolled a critical fail on that response, Lhynn. Its ok, you can try again. I won't dog you for it.

What the fuck are you even talking about?

 

[Shevek]

Who knows

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Why does PoE elicit such butthurt and drama, and so many reviews, I wonder. Is it because Obsidian's creative freedom resulted in a game much safer and less memorable than their previous efforts under the yoke of evil publishers? Is the Codex collectively experiencing a prolonged Sensuki-breakdown?

 

[Azarkon]

So the gods aren't that impresive, the man that shaped Eora's history through the ages wasn't that impresive, the ancient vampire-wirards weren't that impressive, ancint dragons aren't that impressive,

Really? I found it impressive. I dont think I stated otherwise. I am just saying that we do not have any conception of what will come after. So, our conception of high level vs mid level, etc, may not apply in this instance. I know you really want to drive your point home, whatever it is, but folks on forums tend to see meaning in the posts of others that is not there simply to validate their own opinions. Basically, I would suggest that you look at the contuinity and context of the discussion first rather than projecting your beliefs/opinions on it.

I think it is less useful to wonder about what high-level Pillars of Eternity is than to ask about whether Sawyerism is capable of being overcome.

Unless the 'is it balanced?' mentality is itself changed, there won't be a sudden switch to AD&D-style magic, regardless of level.

Imagine how you'd do Timestop in this game, then imagine how it'd be nerfed till it's little else than a free disengage, and you have your answer.

Though I dont agree with every bit of Sawyer's design philosophy, I dont think it has been a hindrance to PoE. Sawyer has stated he wants to see contigencies, sequencers, etc in the game btw. So, there is some hint at where he sees high level casting going. Moreover, Wizards, Druids and Priests are fairly imbalanced with their per encounter low level spell casting. So, I dont think it holds water to say the game suffer due to strict adherance to balance when unbalanced magic already exists.

Insofar as this is imbalanced, I don't think that was by design.

 

[Shevek]

Oh, they very much designed that in from very early on. Its not like a little coding gnome snuck past a sleeping Sawyer and coded that in vehement protest to his strict balance dogma.

 

[Tigranes]

I'm going to address the magic system section.

The issue is not just the scarcity of hard counters and the lack of distinction between high-level and low-level spells, but *diversity* in magic. The bulk of the arsenal in Pillars of Eternity is stat buffs, stat debuffs, movement buffs, movement debuffs, and damage spells. Had AD&D's magic system been comprised of stat buffs, stat debuffs, movement buffs, movement debuffs, and damage spells, then it also would've sucked ass. But that was not the case. AD&D had classes of spells that PoE doesn't even begin to match.

Good post. On one hand, I agree. They had the opportunity to make some really crazy stuff with their own IP, and they didn't do that at all. My assumption is that they spent too much time on creating all those classes and making them all work, so a lot of their good ideas were distributed across different classes. (Of course, they should still have made, say, Cipher spells more distinctly different from mage spells.)

On the other hand, nearly every single example you cite from IE games are 6th or higher level spells. That is, the original Baldur's Gate didn't have Spell Trap, Wish, FoD... I don't think it had any sequencers, either. POE spellbooks sseem to have slots up to Level 10, and we only get to 6. Given 'm pretty willing to cut them a break as long as they continue to improve; if they don't, then they'll never have anything close to matching BG2.

I don't expect to see a lot of systemic improvements in the White March, especially because they cut the expansion into two (a horrible idea). But I do expect to see a bit more thought gone into encounter setup; a bit more out-of-the-way quest design now that they're using existing assets; and a bit less uneven writing quality that gets back to Obsidian's best (K2/MOTB) and away from its worst (NWN2 OC). And, for god's sake, more story adventures with more different outcomes/ skill checks / checking your previous C&C.