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Review RPG Codex Review: Pillars of Eternity, by PrimeJunta

felipepepe

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For Defiance Bays lore says a lot but just like for the rest of the game shows very little. City feels more then half empty, no signs of colonist, adventurers and explorers or masses of refugees that game says they are there. As said in BG2 you can see power struggle at night while in PoE you are told there is one but little is actually seen.
Well, duh. How can a city be a lively center of trade when its harbor is in ruins, the road north is blocked by a collapsed bridge + a collapsed AND haunted stronghold, the road east is flooded and the road south is where be dragons?

Artificial gating is artificial.
 
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Irenaeus II

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For Defiance Bays lore says a lot but just like for the rest of the game shows very little. City feels more then half empty, no signs of colonist, adventurers and explorers or masses of refugees that game says they are there. As said in BG2 you can see power struggle at night while in PoE you are told there is one but little is actually seen.
Well, duh. How can a city be a lively center of trade when its harbor is in ruins, the road north is blocked by a collapsed bridge + a collapsed AND haunted stronghold, the road east is flooded and the road south is where be dragons?

Artificial gating is artificial.

The flooding happened like 2 weeks ago. The dragon area doesn't exclude other roads south, you just don't need to go further south in the game. The port destruction happened as part of the latest war.

Still, there's a massive number of refugees, adventurers and merchants in Defiance Bay. I'll post screenshots when I get home and fire up the game.
 

Azarkon

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I'm going to address the magic system section.

The issue is not just the scarcity of hard counters and the lack of distinction between high-level and low-level spells, but *diversity* in magic. The bulk of the arsenal in Pillars of Eternity is stat buffs, stat debuffs, movement buffs, movement debuffs, and damage spells. Had AD&D's magic system been comprised of stat buffs, stat debuffs, movement buffs, movement debuffs, and damage spells, then it also would've sucked ass. But that was not the case. AD&D had classes of spells that PoE doesn't even begin to match:

Summons: where in the world are PoE's summoning spells? I think druids have one? Contrast that to the AD&D system in which you get to summon monsters, floating swords, undead, elementals, demons, djinn, angels, versions of yourself, etc.

Shapeshifts: in Pillars of Eternity, druids have the ability to shapeshift into a few classes of animals, none of which scale to late game. In AD&D, casters are able to shapeshift into tons of different monsters, all of which have their own unique abilities, and a few of which do scale into the late game.

Special spells: Limited Wish/Wish, Timestop, Maze/Imprison, Knock, Invisibility, Wizard's Eye, Find Traps, etc.

Meta-spells: this was mentioned in the review, but it isn't just a case of 'there are no sequencers and contingencies that allow you to blow your wad 3-4 spells at a time.' Consider Spell Trap: this isn't a sequencer, but it's an unique spell that breaks the rules. Breaking rules is fun.

In addition, the hard counters issue is not about the presence of *counters*, but the presence of *high-impact spells*. Spells eg Finger of Death, Flesh to Stone, Sphere of Annihilation, Absolute Immunity, Dominate, etc. are cool not because they have hard counters, but because they have such devastating effects that they *need* hard counters.

Indeed, it's when these spells *aren't* hard countered that they are fun to use. An ancient dragon that has immunity to basically everything is a painful fight for a wizard and isn't at all fun. Blowing up a group of giants with an instant-kill AoE spell, on the other hand, *that's* fun.

Thus, hard counters exist *because* of all-powerful spells, not the other way around. No one wants a hard counter to Arkemyr's Wondrous Torment and Arkemyr's Capricious Hex because who the fuck cares? The few spells in Pillars of Eternity that are actually worth hard countering - for example the old Gaze of the Adragan - all managed to get nerfed. It's the *philosophy* of Sawyerism whereby mages have to be balanced with fighters that is the problem, not the absence of hard counters.

Lastly, while the Pillars of Eternity magic system was obviously designed for intricate combos, you have to think about how such a system works in RtWP. RtWP stands for "real time with pause" not "turn based with unpause." RtWP is designed for fast-paced, low actions/round gameplay that requires extra attention now and then, not slow-paced, high actions/round gameplay that requires pausing every three seconds to play correctly.

Trash encounters in BG 2 and other RtWP games were dealt with by grouping your characters together and "attack moving" through, not micro managing your characters every turn to ensure that they don't get engaged to death. The same applies to the spell system. Combos eg "have your wizard cast this AoE spell that causes Hobbles, then have your rogue disengage and sneak attack the opponents that were Hobbled, while your priest does X, and your fighter does Y, and your bard does Z" are not executable without pausing every round and in that case, you're not playing a RtWP game but a TBwUP game, and that's fucking annoying given what Pillars of Eternity sacrificed, in terms of turn-based mechanics, to have RtWP in the first place.

It's been said already - Pillars of Eternity's magic system falls too deep into "is it balanced?" Sawyerism and fails to capture the wonder that magic ought to have been. Magic is about breaking the rules, it's about making the player jizz in his pants when he wipes out a room of ogres with a single spell, it's about creating unique and fantastic situations and effects. It's not about -10 accuracy, -5 intelligence, -3 defense.
 
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felipepepe

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Also, there are no non-combat utility spells, like revealing the map, unlocking stuff, teleport, identify, turn invisible, detecting monsters & traps, producing food & water, remove curse, etc...

A fully realized & complex setting where magic only serves to used to deal & heal damage.
 
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Irenaeus II

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I'm going to address the magic system section.

The issue is not just the scarcity of hard counters and the lack of distinction between high-level and low-level spells, but *diversity* in magic. The bulk of the arsenal in Pillars of Eternity is stat buffs, stat debuffs, movement buffs, movement debuffs, and damage spells. Had AD&D's magic system been comprised of stat buffs, stat debuffs, movement buffs, movement debuffs, and damage spells, then it also would've sucked ass. But that was not the case. AD&D had classes of spells that PoE doesn't even begin to match:

Summons: where in the world are PoE's summoning spells? I think druids have one? Contrast that to the AD&D system in which you get to summon monsters, floating swords, undead, elementals, demons, djinn, angels, versions of yourself, etc..

Chanters have that.

1st level Invocations

If their Bones Sleep Still Under that Hill, None Can Say – Summons three skeletons until the combat ends.

2nd level Invocations

Gernisc Slew the Beast, but Soon Faced Its Kin – summons three wurms.

My Son, Do you See your Sisters across the Moor? – summons two Will O'Wisps.

3rd level Invocations

Oh, But Knock Not on the Door of Urdel and Gurdel – Summons two fearsome ogres to fight for the party for the duration.

Gernisc's Beast Lit the Night with his Breath – Calls down a drake from the skies to fight for the party.

Btw, chanter invocation names always amuse me.

Shapeshifts: in Pillars of Eternity, druids have the ability to shapeshift into a few classes of animals, none of which scale to late game. In AD&D, casters are able to shapeshift into tons of different monsters, all of which have their own unique abilities, and a few of which do scale into the late game.

Shapeshifting spells is a good suggestion. I find them very funny, particularly turning enemies into pigs or toads.

Special spells: Limited Wish/Wish

Guess that's limited to implement?

Timestop, Maze/Imprison, Knock,

Would be really useful indeed.

Invisibility

Could be done now that stealth will be reworked for the expansion.

Wizard's Eye

That would be nice and if enemies had True Sight and were actually mobile, they could get the Eye (or even Gaze attack it), and search for the party/alert their allies.

Find Traps

As it is the trap finding system is too simple, as it is grouped with the mechanics skill. Maybe a spell that gives a boost to mechanics?

In addition, the hard counters issue is not about the presence of *counters*, but the presence of *high-impact spells*. Spells eg Finger of Death, Flesh to Stone, Sphere of Annihilation, Absolute Immunity, Dominate, etc. are cool not because they have hard counters, but because they have such devastating effects that they *need* hard counters.

Yeah, those are cool and I hope they are implemented for higher levels of the system that Obsidian is developing for PoE and its expansions and sequels.

(...) Pillars of Eternity's magic system falls too deep into "is it balanced?" Sawyerism and fails to capture the wonder that magic ought to have been.

I like the current PoE magic system in that it works in combat, but I agree that the wonder of magic is lacking.

In addition to the above, I don't have a problem with "trash combat" as you (and many others) have, since I like the current TBwUP as you described the combat.
 
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Shevek

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Azarkon:

Summons: see chanters and items

Also, to be fair, some of that stuff, time stops, etc, are not really present in low level or even mid level DnD. I would hold off until PoE2 to make better apples to apples comparisons.
 
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Also, there are no non-combat utility spells, like revealing the map, unlocking stuff, teleport, identify, turn invisible, detecting monsters & traps, producing food & water, remove curse, etc...

A fully realized & complex setting where magic only serves to used to deal & heal damage.

There's that one guy who changes his face to impersonate a low level drug dealer, that's non-combat magic. Would be too powerful in the hands of the player, of course.
 

Shevek

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Why? :salute:

At the time it was written, the author felt that both Decado's and Roxxor's review were lacking. I kind of agree. Decado lacked detailed analysis of core systems and design goals. Roxxor's read like a teenage forum rant so filled with purile angst that reading it literally gave me acne. A better review was needed and PJ delivered.
 

felipepepe

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Also, to be fair, some of that stuff, time stops, etc, are not really present in low level or even mid level DnD. I would hold off until PoE2 to make better apples to apples comparisons.
PoE isn't low-level by any stretch of the imagination. By the end game you're killing ancient dragons, millenia-old vampires, golems from lost civilizations and a guy that's basically Evil Elminister. Hell, the Gods are begging you to please help them at the end.

Seriosuly, what you expect for PoE 2? Thanos was basically the setting's most powerful man, an immortal that manipulated the entire world to believe in man-made gods. All that's left is killing the gods themselves.
 

Shevek

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Low level and high level is all relative. We have no conception of what high level encounters are for PoE2 yet. All we have right now are the quantifiable values of the player levels.

In PoE2 we may fight ancient vampire dragons and their army of golem elminsters. Who knows?

All we can guess is there are higher levels in this universe and whatever kinda crazy soul battles against the gods await us in PoE2, the levels will be higher and, presumably, that means higher level spells.
 
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Just wait for PoE 2 man, everything will be alright. Everyone knows Obsidian is good at making superior sequels and this time they will have full creative freedom
 

Shevek

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Doesnt the game confirm this? Look at the spell levels, we dont reach them all.

Edit: Hmm, or do we? Not sure. Nevermind, I think we do barely get to 6th level spells. Not sure if higher levels are confirmed for sequels.
 
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Irenaeus II

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Hell, the Gods are begging you to please help them at the end.

I must have missed that part, since they just gave me tasks and promised to punish me should I fail/betray them.

you're killing ancient dragons

Optional, really fucking hard and the toughest battles of the game.

millenia-old vampires

Millenia-old vampires in this setting are not the legendary Antedeluvian vampires from Vampires: The Masquerade. They are just high-level undead.

golems from lost civilizations

Cool, but not indestructible.

a guy that's basically Evil Elminister. Thanos was basically the setting's most powerful man, an immortal that manipulated the entire world to believe in man-made gods. All that's left is killing the gods themselves.

Thaos was a great political shadow force, a manipulator like maybe no other in the setting, but he wasn't a super wizard, just a powerful one. I bet he's not the only powerful guy in the setting.

Seriosuly, what you expect for PoE 2?

To be awesome like PoE.
 
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felipepepe

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In PoE2 we may fight ancient vampire dragons and their army of golem elminsters. Who knows?
Baldur's Gate began slowly, all the way from a sick gibberling to ganking up to defeat Sarevok, one of many Bhaal-Spawn (including yourself). The BG2 slowly introduces dragons, vampires, mind-flayers, drow, Githanki, etc... in Throne of Bhaal you're already on epic levels, facing imprisoned demons and the final, most powerful Bhaal-Spawns.

There's nothing like that in PoE. It already jumped the shark throwing dragons, ancient vampires from lost civilizations and whatnot. There's nothing in all the setting that even hints at something more powerful than the Adra Dragon or Thaos, except for the gods themselves.

Hell, the Gods are begging you to please help them at the end.
I must have missed that part, since they just gave me tasks and promised to punish me should I fail/betray them.
Easily bullied, eh? At the end of the game you basically choose which god will rule over the others. Not what I would call a low-level adventure.
 
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Irenaeus II

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Hell, the Gods are begging you to please help them at the end.
I must have missed that part, since they just gave me tasks and promised to punish me should I fail/betray them.
Easily bullied, eh? At the end of the game you basically choose which god will rule over the others. Not what I would call a low-level adventure.

My PCs are not easily bullied, but they simply acted according to the personalities I gave them. I'm not sure you choose which god will rule over the others, you just do what which one want and it has a huge effect for the Dyrwood (and small effects for other parts of the world). The gods, fake or not, seem detached or amused at the material world. Maybe expansions and sequels will explain their relation and characteristics better, I'm intrigued and counting on that.

Edit:
From what I'm reading of the Endings, only giving the souls to Woedica (which I didn't do in any of my so far three playthoroughs) seem to have a real (and sinister) effect on the Pantheon. But there's no immediate consequence, just a foreshadowing.
 
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Shevek

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Easily bullied, eh? At the end of the game you basically choose which god will rule over the others. Not what I would call a low-level adventure.
The term god is also relative. The Aztecs thought Cortez was god, so? The campaign, as it roles out, can easily be seen as mid level faire. Its all perspective.
 

felipepepe

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Easily bullied, eh? At the end of the game you basically choose which god will rule over the others. Not what I would call a low-level adventure.
The term god is also relative. The Aztecs thought Cortez was god, so? The campaign, as it roles out, can easily be seen as mid level faire. Its all perspective.
Except that the ending slides show they have actual godly powers:

An epidemic of unexplained deaths struck Dyrwood in the days that followed the Legacy. Most often the dead would be travelers on the road, known to be a favorite target of Bareth's Pallid Knight, who exacts impossible tolls from those who have journeyed for too long. The elderly, too, seemed to pass on in alarming numbers. But just as often the deaths appeared to strike randomly and for no reason at all.

In the months that followed, the frontier settlements of Dyrwood were inexplicably attacked by packs of beasts and monsters, suddenly organised and unafraid to approach kith on their own land. Many such villages were all but destroyed by the time troops could be dispatched from local garrisons.

Those that weren't destroyed by the beasts of Galawain often found themselves at the mercy of the fires of Magran. A dry spell throughout Dyrwood led to a rash of forest fires on a scale not seen since the War of Black Trees, and many settlements paid the price for their proximity to the wilderness.

Yup, just like Cortez setting fire to a bowl of alcohol or something...
 
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Yup, just like Cortez setting fire to a bowl of alcohol or something...

Snipers, trained animals, and weather satellites. There's no hard and fast rule saying that the PoE setting can't have "Sci-Fi"/modern day elements.
 

Shevek

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Shit, the player has godly powers too. Its a fantasy role playing game, man.
 

Shevek

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Yup, just like Cortez setting fire to a bowl of alcohol or something...
Snipers, trained animals, and weather satellites. There's no hard and fast rule saying that the PoE setting can't have "Sci-Fi"/modern day elements.
Now that would be 100x more interesting that anything Obsidian will likely deliver...
22fef552e8fe377ebb950d12eb71eb.jpg
 

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