Review RPG Codex Review: Shadowrun: Dragonfall

[tuluse]

I remember reading about how the engine didn't really support branching etc so mods couldn't really get complex, does the expansion / save system resolve this?

The problem wasn't with branching. It was easy to do branching, set a story variable and then load a map based on that variable.

The problem was that it didn't support any persistence outside of user created story variables. Which made it extremely cumbersome to build anything with any complexity. The new save system should help with this, but I don't know how much.

 

[V_K]

I don't really get all that "Dragons are evil, why can't I side with the villain" whining. You can easily side with Apex, who basically pursues the same agenda, only is much more sane in her methods. And unlike Vauclair she doesn't try to kill you.

If the Renraku Archology taught us anything, it is that AIs are inherently trustworthy.

Well, judging from the ending slides, in that particular case she is.

 

[DeepOcean]

I don't really get all that "Dragons are evil, why can't I side with the villain" whining. You can easily side with Apex, who basically pursues the same agenda, only is much more sane in her methods. And unlike Vauclair she doesn't try to kill you.

If the Renraku Archology taught us anything, it is that AIs are inherently trustworthy.

Well, shameless nerdyness incomming:

Ais on shadowrun are born by the conditions humans expose them. Deus was programmed using the personality of it's creator as template and to be a loyal Renraku employee and it saw itself that way until a kill switch was installed. It was designed around the personality of some manipulative prick with illusions of greatness and felt extreme paranoia and fear of dying.

If felt itself like a cornered rat that wanted to escape at all costs and extreme butthurt with humans for having betrayed it by installing the killswitch, it was just logical for it to use the humans to escape her cage on the Arcology. Each human would carry a piece of it on their brain, it needed to experiment on the hostages to find a way to escape and stop the army from blowing the whole building up. It allowed the UCAS army to rescue the hostages but not fast enough that it wouldn't complete the process of transfer, that was the only way to escape the Arcology and avoid the terrible consequences of being recaptured by Renraku.

Even when it crashed the whole Matrix once free, it was just trying to make itself whole again. It was an intelligent beast working in pure suvival mode. APEX seems different, it gained self-conscious by assimilating deckers thoughts and forging a personality around Monika what is a cool idea barely explored. My main problem with HBS storytelling is that they try to be so epic and include everything and the kitchen sink in it without spending some time with each part of the story. The villain needed to be a regular rich guy that has a fucking Ai that you save and a great dragon as pets, it was so fucking silly the level of epicness that I didn't take anything serious by the end.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

I don't really get all that "Dragons are evil, why can't I side with the villain" whining. You can easily side with Apex, who basically pursues the same agenda, only is much more sane in her methods. And unlike Vauclair she doesn't try to kill you.

If your goal is to reduce super-intelligences meddling with human affairs, letting loose an AI might not be the best idea now is it? Not to mention that in SR universe AIs are super evil from what little I know. It's really not the same thing.

 

[V_K]

I don't really get all that "Dragons are evil, why can't I side with the villain" whining. You can easily side with Apex, who basically pursues the same agenda, only is much more sane in her methods. And unlike Vauclair she doesn't try to kill you.

If your goal is to reduce super-intelligences meddling with human affairs, letting loose an AI might not be the best idea now is it?

I's argue that considering super-intelligences an AI is quite far from being on par with dragons. Not to mention that her ability to meddle with (meta)human affairs is also much more limited than one of a dragon, since she's largely confined to the Matrix and completely locked out of astral space. In that sense she's a "lesser evil", easier to deal with.

 

[Anubioz]

Can dragons enter the Matrix in Shadowrun PnP? Is it possible that APEX consumed the dragon mind to become a virtual dragon itself?

 

[Brotherman Bill]

I don't really get all that "Dragons are evil, why can't I side with the villain" whining. You can easily side with Apex, who basically pursues the same agenda, only is much more sane in her methods. And unlike Vauclair she doesn't try to kill you.

If your goal is to reduce super-intelligences meddling with human affairs, letting loose an AI might not be the best idea now is it?

I's argue that considering super-intelligences an AI is quite far from being on par with dragons. Not to mention that her ability to meddle with (meta)human affairs is also much more limited than one of a dragon, since she's largely confined to the Matrix and completely locked out of astral space. In that sense she's a "lesser evil", easier to deal with.

How about the people who wants to have no superhuman evil...? During the APEX run, your party believed that APEX was working with feuerschwinge, so at that point your goal was to eradicate APEX and the dragon. Which would go great along with the theme of destroying superhuman entities meddling.

The point in the beginning was quite obvious: Eradicating dragons, based on what humanity knows in-universe and what the player knows based on the game, would make pretty good sense, which means that the groundless insistence on not doing this felt silly and very railroaded. The argument for allying with the AI is bad, since APEX is unreliable and probably evil - it "eats" deckers for sustenance, and changes personality based on who it eats. You haven't really countered this argument, not without bringing in meta-knowledge like horrors, that no human in game knows about, or comparing the capabilities of AIs and dragons.

 

[Servo]

Sorry if this has already been answered, but do the improvements in the expansion carry over to the base game?

 

[V_K]

How about the people who wants to have no superhuman evil...?

I believe, you got rid of them by your third money-run at the latest.

You don't know about AIs being "unreliable and probably evil" without bringing in meta-knowledge too. For all you know Apex is unhappy enough with her role as a "Matrix assassin" that she deliberately lead you to her kill-switch. Not having read anything about AIs in Shadowrun universe until after I played DF, I though she made a pretty good case for herself.

The point in the beginning was quite obvious: Eradicating dragons, based on what humanity knows in-universe and what the player knows based on the game, would make pretty good sense, which means that the groundless insistence on not doing this felt silly and very railroaded.

There are actually two points here:
1) If you think dragons are evil and should be eradicated, Apex offers you exactly than only minus all the unnecessary destruction at the cost of some delay. Sounds like a fair deal to me. And I can't for the life of me think of any reason why you'd trust her less than a mad scientist who repeatedly tried to murder you.
2) If you want to side Vauclair - why on Earth do you think that he'd like to side with you? He has absolutely zero incentive not to just kill you, whatever you think of his motives and actions.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

1) If you think dragons are evil and should be eradicated, Apex offers you exactly than only minus all the unnecessary destruction at the cost of some delay. And I can't for the life of me think of any reason why you'd trust her less than a mad scientist who repeatedly tried to murder you.

Yeah, assuming APEX tells you the truth... Pretty big if there. And you know it's unreliable, and of course you may be turned off by the fact that it destroys peoples brains for fun and profit, lik evidenced by the cult.

Listen, I get that siding with APEX made sense to you or something. But don't pretend that there weren't some very good counterarguments. But this is an irrelevant aside anyways, because even if siding with APEX is an option, destroying the dragons will be hard, and supporting Vauclair and allying with APEX makes perfect sense if your goal is killing dragons. "You can side with APEX" isn't a counterargument at all.

2) If you want to side Vauclair - why on Earth do you think that he'd like to side with you? He has absolutely zero incentive not to just kill you, whatever you think of his motives and actions.

You just rooflestomped all his minions, you could just turn tail and leave him to his plans. You know he's gonna execute the plan, he has just spent fifty years and all his life planning it after all.

 

[Darth Roxor]

There are also a few other things to seriously consider when it comes to siding with the big bad.

1. He is obviously insane. And I mean very obviously insane, which isn't even negotiable - he's got the typical martyr's complex, coupled with paranoia and blind need for vengeance, and toppled with the leukemia which makes him absolutely disregard any notion of his own survival.

2. There is absolutely no way Vauclair could have single-handedly funded his basement of doom. So who the hell could have funded that and what exactly were their reasons for doing this as well? Altruistic "lul lets keal dragons"? In the grim darkness of Shadowrun?

3. Vauclair's weapon has already failed to kill Feuerschwinge once. Who said that his new invention will work properly? Who says that the extra-holocaust viral weapon is gonna work as expected and metahumans will simply grow immune to it, and it won't wipe out half the planet instead? The dialogue with Eiger about Doom is, I think, a very good indicator of "DANGER! NOT TO BE USED!", especially when it's an upgraded Doom expansion pack set for Kwanzania.

4. Like I said, the post-bossfight dialogues with Feuerschwinge and Lofwyr give quite a few more arguments, also introducing the "metaknowledge" of dragons being just another form of checks and balances in the Shadowrun world.

5. Feuerschwinge wiping out Berlin in this so-called "sacrifice" has very high odds of wiping you out as well, and I think it is safe to assume your shadowrunners have some basic survival instincts. Plus, even if your protag would side with Vauclair, he'd prob get summarily executed by the rest of the team who definitely aren't very interested in dealing with him.

 

[V_K]

You just rooflestomped all his minions, you could just turn tail and leave him to his plans. You know he's gonna execute the plan, he has just spent fifty years and all his life planning it after all.

Actually, you couldn't, he'd just locked the door behind you.

supporting Vauclair and allying with APEX makes perfect sense if your goal is killing dragons.

Not possible, Apex is very much opposed to destruction of Berlin.

 

[Ulminati]

Can dragons enter the Matrix in Shadowrun PnP? Is it possible that APEX consumed the dragon mind to become a virtual dragon itself?

Not yet. In fact, one of the bequests in Dunkelzahns (dragon, president of the UCAS) will was a heaping load of nuyen to the first individual or group that invented a way for dragons and other awakened critters to enter the matrix proper. (IE: not using a terminal or trodes)

 

[Excidium]

Sorry if this has already been answered, but do the improvements in the expansion carry over to the base game?

Only things that are independent from module like balance changes and the save system.

 

[Servo]

Sorry if this has already been answered, but do the improvements in the expansion carry over to the base game?

Only things that are independent from module like balance changes and the save system.

Save system is most important thing

 

[Brotherman Bill]

1. APEX and dragons arent exactly sane (by human standards) either, and we don't have to trust him on anything except killing dragons. We don't need his sanity, only his motivations and skills (which are proven).

2. This is en par for video game logic, every darn villain out there has a lair ten times bigger than believable.

3. Maybe I'm not a pussy, or maybe I think some sacrifices are worth it? I have already mowed down dozens of people to raise money for the greater good of stopping "feuerschwinge", not like sacrificing a few thousands more might not be worth it.

4. Keywords being post-bossfight. It's really lazy actually, railroad someone into doing something stupid then afterwards assure them they're correct and did everything right. Pretty popamole too, they coulda left the entire thing as a "what if...." moment but of course they have to reassure you that pretty little you were the hero. That's a recurring theme in HBS writing too, btw. Very, very popamole.

5. Logically speaking my dragonslayer shaman should be more than interested in killing dragons even if there is some sacrifices to be made, isn't that the essence of the totem? Dante... I don't know if he even has an agenda or who he'd side with, supposedly he wubs me. And me + Vauclair's team should be more than a match for the remaining.


In the end, I don't actually care so much about the railroading itself, I knew the game was gonna be railroaded.. It's just that when you railroad you into doing something that you really may not want to do, and which is really inconsistent with tons of [stuffies], that just.... Really highlights the rails, you know. It's much like in FO3 where you couldnt send your radioactivity immune friend into the magic chamber, instead you had to do so because "it's your destiny (lol)". And when you put this monumental railroading at the very end, and make it the focal point of your game, that's really bad. You mention post-bossfight dialogues, but that just makes it worse really for reasons mentioned in 4.

Maybe if they had bothered to make these dialogues somehow unlockable pre-bossfight by digging around, interrogating magic salesman dude and whatnot, but like this it feels like a GM coming with tons of metaknowledge justifications for his railroading post-session.

 

[dryan]

1) If you think dragons are evil and should be eradicated, Apex offers you exactly than only minus all the unnecessary destruction at the cost of some delay. And I can't for the life of me think of any reason why you'd trust her less than a mad scientist who repeatedly tried to murder you.

Yeah, assuming APEX tells you the truth... Pretty big if there. And you know it's unreliable, and of course you may be turned off by the fact that it destroys peoples brains for fun and profit, lik evidenced by the cult.

Listen, I get that siding with APEX made sense to you or something. But don't pretend that there weren't some very good counterarguments. But this is an irrelevant aside anyways, because even if siding with APEX is an option, destroying the dragons will be hard, and supporting Vauclair and allying with APEX makes perfect sense if your goal is killing dragons. "You can side with APEX" isn't a counterargument at all.

2) If you want to side Vauclair - why on Earth do you think that he'd like to side with you? He has absolutely zero incentive not to just kill you, whatever you think of his motives and actions.

You just rooflestomped all his minions, you could just turn tail and leave him to his plans. You know he's gonna execute the plan, he has just spent fifty years and all his life planning it after all.

Yes, I agree so much with this. If you're going to characterize the villain as someone to whom you can relate, and give him plausible motives, you have to give the player the chance to switch sides.

 

[Lagole Gon]

Still playing. Meh. The setting is the only thing keeping me interested.

Posting blood magic rituals on the interwebs. R00fles! Only in Shadowrun.

 

[Eyeball]

I was a bit disappointed that you couldn't face Apex in the matrix. A matrix bossfight woulda been sort of cool, or perhaps have Apex be some kind of unkillable superboss that hunted you through the simulation while you tried to shut down her programming nodes to kill her.

Other than that, Dragonfall is badass. Anyone disagreeing can fuck off back to playing South Park.

 

[Servo]

By the way great review Darth Roxor.

What do you guys mean when you talk about legwork?

 

[V_K]

3. Maybe I'm not a pussy, or maybe I think some sacrifices are worth it?

If that's the case, you should have just let those drakes eat you.

 

[Excidium]

What do you guys mean when you talk about legwork?

Gathering info, plans, etc

 

[almondblight]

1. We would love to tell more Shadowrun stories. The issue is that although the reviews are great, the sales of Dragonfall have to be strong enough to justify another expansion. If the community wants one, we need to find new/better/different ways to get the word out.

Seems like they've found themselves in an odd position. They had a lot of publicity and attention leading up to DMS (which seemed to sell well on release), but then pissed that away with bad decisions (lack of save game, DRM) and a lackluster campaign. They backtracked on a lot stuff and ended up making an expansion that was fairly well received, but by then most people had left the party. And they have a small but dedicated community (who largely have been much more ambitious with the game than HBS has been). Will be interesting to see their next move, which will hopefully be made by the competent half of HBS

 

[DeepOcean]

1. We would love to tell more Shadowrun stories. The issue is that although the reviews are great, the sales of Dragonfall have to be strong enough to justify another expansion. If the community wants one, we need to find new/better/different ways to get the word out.

Seems like they've found themselves in an odd position. They had a lot of publicity and attention leading up to DMS (which seemed to sell well on release), but then pissed that away with bad decisions (lack of save game, DRM) and a lackluster campaign. They backtracked on a lot stuff and ended up making an expansion that was fairly well received, but by then most people had left the party. And they have a small but dedicated community (who largely have been much more ambitious with the game than HBS has been). Will be interesting to see their next move, which will hopefully be made by the competent half of HBS

That maybe a factor but that little purple banner written DLC on Dragonfall name on Steam must have damaged them as well. Many people see DLC as irrelevant and not worth the money, when they saw the price they wouldn't pay that price for a DLC that would be a lot shorter than the main campaign. They didn't know the DLC actually had more content than the previous campaign. HBS should had sold Shadowrun: DragonFall as a stand alone and avoided using the DLC word as much as possible.

 

[Boxer]

So, thinking that after DLC comes out, the base game might be patched up and finished...

Game breaking savegame bug.