Review RPG Codex Review: Tyranny - Kyros Demands Better

[Shilandra]

That's a shame. It looked like they were trying to set up something interesting with gravelight. It would have been neat if they did things like only make certain areas of the old walls accessible through certain gravelight spells. Especially since the only way to get the terratus grave sigil is through really high loyalty with eb. So another missed c&c opportunity there.

With regards to the ongoing combat discussion. Could it have been improved by having a visible action queue Ala nwn2? Like, you can queue multiple actions with shift but you don't see anything happening when you do so it's kinda easy to lose track of actions when you do that.

You can also get gravelight if you have high fear. :D As for the oldwalls, I guess it'll be a "find out the truth about banes" dlc.

I don't think this combat system can be fixed, there are just too many issues with it (bad pathfinding & ai, copy & paste encounter design, regenerating health & wounds, engagement, random target switching). There are some things that could be done to make it more challenging, but whether it would make it also fun, I have no idea. Enemy mages need better spellbooks, because even late game they are stuck with basic spells. Enemies need a "call for help" function, because sometimes the back row doesn't even notice the frontlines are fighting for their lives. There needs to be better coordination between abilities. E.g. if frozen makes the target vulnerable to crushing damage, then put a frost mage next to a guy with a hammer and make them tag-team. And so on.

Shit, didn't know about the fear thing. Oh well. I guess any old walls dlc will have to come after the obligatory fight kyros dlc though.

And why does random target switching happen anyway. There's no reason for verse, Landry and eb to stop pelting their archers with their attacks after I've ordered them to do that. Yet they still end up switching to the immortal tanks I'm occupying anyway. I can't understand why that should ever happen and it's really annoying when it does.

 

[Prime Junta]

fight kyros dlc

P sure that's gonna be Tyranny 2. If they make one.

And why does random target switching happen anyway. There's no reason for verse, Landry and eb to stop pelting their archers with their attacks after I've ordered them to do that.

Default AI is really aggravating. I tried a few of the settings and ended up leaving it at Passive, that way they'll self-heal when necessary but otherwise won't do much, such as switch targets randomly.

 

[Haplo]

But Dragon Age Origins currently holds the shit-dripping trophy for worst RTwP combat I have ever suffered through

See you didn't bother with DA2 or Inquisition (or kotor 1/2 or NWN 1/2 for that matter).

Well, NWN 1 mechanics were based on DnD 3.0, so actually a much better system then DA:O.
NWN2 was based on 3.5 therefore also good, however the dev decision to remove round combat "filler" animations and the shitty quality of animations in general somehow made the combat flow much worse then NWN1.

 

[Excidium II]

3.5 therefore also good

(said noone ever)

 

[tuluse]

Incidentally, what kind of dummy complains about the combat density of Tyranny (which has fewer than 2 hours of combat and only about some 400odd enemies to kill at most) but not Dragon Age (2600-2800 if you do everything in the base game)?

Presumably, since DA:O combat is fun, it's enjoyable to a certain amount of density. While, Tyranny being not-fun, is enjoyable to 0 amount of density.

Of course John Walker is bad, and seems to be re-writing his own history regarding DA:O.

 

[agris]

Agreed. I play DA:O with Nightmare + difficulty mods, and fights being longer certainly isn't a result of general bloat.

What difficulty mods? Is there a DA:O equivalent of SCS? I've been contemplating playing it again (and finishing Awakening this time) so I'm looking for something to spice up the gameplay.

It's been years, but the best one was an item revamp mod that changed the entire tiering system and also equipped new items to enemies and changed their AI to use consumables more effectively. It doesn't seem to be on the Nexus though (no DA nexus back then).

from my dragonage.txt

http://lilura1.blogspot.com/2014/10/modding-dragon-age-origins_26.html

Lilura referral dollars plz

 

[Lilura]

Thanks, but do you see PayPal or Patreon faggotry on my ads-free blog?

Have a brofist.

 

[Prime Junta]

Well, NWN 1 mechanics were based on DnD 3.0, so actually a much better system then DA:O.

DnD 3 as a system sucks less than DA:O's (although not all that much less; its main selling point is that it's really rich).

Moment to moment gameplay in the NWNs is just bad however; DA:O does that better.

 

[l3loodAngel]

Moment to moment gameplay in the NWNs is just bad however; DA:O does that better.

Competition of handicapped?

 

[Grunker]

Agreed. I play DA:O with Nightmare + difficulty mods, and fights being longer certainly isn't a result of general bloat.

What difficulty mods? Is there a DA:O equivalent of SCS? I've been contemplating playing it again (and finishing Awakening this time) so I'm looking for something to spice up the gameplay.

It's been years, but the best one was an item revamp mod that changed the entire tiering system and also equipped new items to enemies and changed their AI to use consumables more effectively. It doesn't seem to be on the Nexus though (no DA nexus back then).

from my dragonage.txt

http://lilura1.blogspot.com/2014/10/modding-dragon-age-origins_26.html

Lilura referral dollars plz

Don't see the item mod I mentioned though

 

[Prime Junta]

Competition of handicaped?

Compared to what came before, hell yes.

-> tangent

I've been playing a lot of these more or less back to back lately. The IE series, NWN1-2, DA:O, Pillars, Tyranny, even DA:I. It's striking how apparent the decline -- and subsequent incline -- become when you do it that way, and think of moment-to-moment gameplay and ignore the systems.

The IE games really are superb in that respect. They're responsive, the controls are exactly there, and once you've racked up a few levels you have a massive amount of toys to play with. NWN1 series still has the toys, but it feels like wading through molasses in comparison, and of course completely lacks the party aspect of it. NWN2 puts back the party gameplay but gives us a horrid camera to wrestle with, while doing nothing to fix the spongy, unresponsive feel of commanding the units. (Even more toys though.)

DA:O is a significant step forward in terms of moment-to-moment feel. The units respond properly, it's possible to target and apply your abilities in a controlled way, and the general feel is much crisper. You still have to wrestle with the camera, you can't do proper formation positioning, and the party aspect is significantly diluted with only four members to command, so it's a far cry from the IEs; also your toolkit is much more limited than in the IE or NWN series.

Pillars is another big step forward. By now, commanding the units and applying abilities is just about as good as in the IE games. It's only behind them in clarity -- the camera angle is too low and the FX are way too pyrotechnic so it's a quite a lot harder to see what's going on. In terms of toys to play with we're close to IE series levels too -- the spell system isn't as diverse, but the other class and item abilities partly make up for it.

Tyranny keeps some of the advances Pillars had -- feel of commanding units and applying abilities -- but then does a complete faceplant on the systems. It's like a car that won't come out of first gear.

And the less said about DA:I, the better.

 

[vortex]

How big is the team now working in Obsidian?

Armored Warfare maintenance
PoE2 in the making (Josh said he works the best with 30-ish people)
Cain/Boyarsky team (number unkonwn ?)

Is Tyranny team transfered to PoE2 or they are making new DLC or Tyr2?

 

[Morality Games]

How big is the team now working in Obsidian?

Armored Warfare maintenance
PoE2 in the making (Josh said he works the best with 30-ish people)
Cain/Boyarsky team (number unkonwn ?)

Is Tyranny team transfered to PoE2 or they are making new DLC or Tyr2?

I have to presume they are in the planning stages for Tyranny DLC.

 

[Shilandra]

How big is the team now working in Obsidian?

Armored Warfare maintenance
PoE2 in the making (Josh said he works the best with 30-ish people)
Cain/Boyarsky team (number unkonwn ?)

Is Tyranny team transfered to PoE2 or they are making new DLC or Tyr2?

I have to presume they are in the planning stages for Tyranny DLC.

If they make any dlcs I hope at least one of them is focused around the gravelight mystery.

Sorry if I'm talking to much about gravelight btw. It's just one of the most interesting setting unique magics the game has. It might not look as pretty or feel as Impactful as the other spells but I'll be dammed if I'm not in love with it.

 

[Average Manatee]

Competition of handicaped?

Compared to what came before, hell yes.

-> tangent

I've been playing a lot of these more or less back to back lately. The IE series, NWN1-2, DA:O, Pillars, Tyranny, even DA:I. It's striking how apparent the decline -- and subsequent incline -- become when you do it that way, and think of moment-to-moment gameplay and ignore the systems.

The IE games really are superb in that respect. They're responsive, the controls are exactly there, and once you've racked up a few levels you have a massive amount of toys to play with. NWN1 series still has the toys, but it feels like wading through molasses in comparison, and of course completely lacks the party aspect of it. NWN2 puts back the party gameplay but gives us a horrid camera to wrestle with, while doing nothing to fix the spongy, unresponsive feel of commanding the units. (Even more toys though.)

DA:O is a significant step forward in terms of moment-to-moment feel. The units respond properly, it's possible to target and apply your abilities in a controlled way, and the general feel is much crisper. You still have to wrestle with the camera, you can't do proper formation positioning, and the party aspect is significantly diluted with only four members to command, so it's a far cry from the IEs; also your toolkit is much more limited than in the IE or NWN series.

Pillars is another big step forward. By now, commanding the units and applying abilities is just about as good as in the IE games. It's only behind them in clarity -- the camera angle is too low and the FX are way too pyrotechnic so it's a quite a lot harder to see what's going on. In terms of toys to play with we're close to IE series levels too -- the spell system isn't as diverse, but the other class and item abilities partly make up for it.

Tyranny keeps some of the advances Pillars had -- feel of commanding units and applying abilities -- but then does a complete faceplant on the systems. It's like a car that won't come out of first gear.

And the less said about DA:I, the better.

I've played a few of them lately as well, and it strikes me that any cRPG that is RTwP needs to do what Baldur's Gate did tech-wise: Make a competent RTS engine first and then stuff it full of more stuff to do with less units.

You'll notice that there are zero good RTSs in which the player is required to fuck with the camera. There are zero good RTSs in which eye candy dominates the screen to the point where you can't see what's going on. There are zero good RTSs where units or abilities feel slow/laggy/unwieldy, unless that's the intentional design for that unit or ability. Anyone looking to make an RTwP RPG should try to license Blizzard's RTS engine because modders in their basements can make better combat-focused RPGs with WC3 and SC2 than RPG devs pouring millions into their engines.

 

[imweasel]

Is Tyranny team transfered to PoE2 or they are making new DLC or Tyr2?

I don't see a DLC or a sequel even happening unless Tranny starts selling better. Still a bit early to tell how well the game is actually selling, but it is #51 on Steam ATM and according to SteamSpy they have only sold like 100K copies. Not good. Even for a 40 dollar game.

 

[vortex]

Every cRPG from now on should come on consoles too, if developers want to make a livin' from it. PC has become edgy floor, me thinks.
Even if tomorrow Baldur's Gate III comes , it could dust on steam.

 

[Roguey]

I don't see a DLC or a sequel even happening unless Tranny starts selling better. Still a bit early to tell how well the game is actually selling, but it is #51 on Steam ATM and according to SteamSpy they have only sold like 100K copies. Not good. Even for a 40 dollar game.

It's pretty good given the budget.

You want to see disappointment, check out Dishonored 2.

 

[Urthor]

Tyranny is going to get DLC, but it'll get 1 unit only probably.


The monetary equation for DLC is too good for them to NOT release it, it's literally just free cash. They invested thousands of hours making the hardware and backend for Tyranny, releasing another 1-2h of gameplay for 10 bucks is relatively cheap in terms of man hours, and 10*30k is 300 thousand dollars.

Plus, lolParadox. A paradox game without DLC? Blasphemy

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If I had to be brutal about the combat, they clearly went for the easy to balance combat approach. You can forget just how many balance passes PoE combat has been through, and all those balance passes will probably be closely reflected in PoE2.

Tyranny they didn't have that option of tweaking the balance because budget, so they went for the easy option. Which was also the shitty unfun option. Then released it at Christmas like lumpnuggets because they didn't have the balls to release in the first half of 2017 and compete with InExile, which they probably could have done and either avoided TToN or just flat out defeated TToN, because TToN's interface and combat are much, much worse than Tyranny's.

 

[imweasel]

I don't see a DLC or a sequel even happening unless Tranny starts selling better. Still a bit early to tell how well the game is actually selling, but it is #51 on Steam ATM and according to SteamSpy they have only sold like 100K copies. Not good. Even for a 40 dollar game.

It's pretty good given the budget.

What was the budget?

They have made something like 3m dollars in revenue so far (after Steam takes their cut).

EDIT: + a bit from GoG

 

[Urthor]

If they double 3M that's still a borderline rate of return for video games. IF the budget was that low. Vidya games are like films, you need to make a multiple of your budget because you tie up the budget for multiple years, and compound interest is a thing

 

[Roguey]

What was the budget?

Less than Pillars of Eternity (which is getting a sequel).

 

[Morality Games]

I don't see a DLC or a sequel even happening unless Tranny starts selling better. Still a bit early to tell how well the game is actually selling, but it is #51 on Steam ATM and according to SteamSpy they have only sold like 100K copies. Not good. Even for a 40 dollar game.

It's pretty good given the budget.

You want to see disappointment, check out Dishonored 2.

Both of these games are probably going to have long lifetime sales, especially Dishonored 2.

 

[Trashos]

What was the budget?

Less than Pillars of Eternity (which is getting a sequel).

I am very curious about the conclusions that Feargus, Josh and Eric are going to draw from the lack of success of Tyranny. I am convinced that they wanted to go 4-member party with potentially simpler combat for PoE2, but now?

 

[Morality Games]

What was the budget?

Less than Pillars of Eternity (which is getting a sequel).

I am very curious about the conclusions that Feargus, Josh and Eric are going to draw from the lack of success of Tyranny. I am convinced that they wanted to go 4-member party with potentially simpler combat for PoE2, but now?

Don't think they've drawn anything, because the game is still selling and will sell more with quality DLCs.