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Review RPG Codex Review: Undertale

Vikter

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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
This place fucking hates anything that is playable. There are people here who say Planescape: Torment is a JRPG and hyped Pillars of Eternity until it came out and then they started hating it. Undertale shouldn't be immune to the hivemind of contrarian hatred that this place is loved for.

By the way, I played a little more Undertale. It's a funny game, but seriously, it doesn't belong in an RPG. It should be an adventure game or even an YouTube animation or something like that, because only the dialogue, characters and soundtrack are actually great like everyone says. The gameplay aspect is seriously lacking, and no amount of "mind fucking" by having alternate saves or breaking the fourth wall in practice can save it from being boring in this aspect.
 

Siveon

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I consider it more in lieu of those RPG Maker games like Yume Nikki, OFF, Corpse Party, etc. I wouldn't call it a good RPG per se, but I do think it's a very enjoyable game on its own.
 

Vikter

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I consider it more in lieu of those RPG Maker games like Yume Nikki, OFF, Corpse Party, etc. I wouldn't call it a good RPG per se, but I do think it's a very enjoyable game on its own.
But Yume Nikki, Corpse Party (which is not an RPG Maker game, or is it?) and To The Moon focused on story and ditched combat entirely, if I remember well. Undertale's combat kind of makes sense because it's a world with monsters, and you have the option of sparing them, but it's such a chore to deal with combat in that game.
 

Siveon

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Corpse Party was at first an RPG Maker game, and then received enhanced ports/remakes. I mentioned these games because they focused on story around a JRPG frame, but didn't play out exactly like JRPGs. OFF would be the closest comparison, but it actually has more straightforward combat than Undertale. As well as less story bits.

As for the combat in Undertale, I found it endearing enough. I like STGs (Bullet Hell, Shmup, etc), and it didn't last any longer than 7 hours, so I didn't really see much of a problem with it. I certainly had more fun with it than some other RPGs (not good ones, mind). It could be fantastic (if you like dodging things) if the game was difficult for both routes, and was consistently difficult. Instead of being easy > easy > somewhat not easy > easy > ball-crushingly hard > easy.
 

Vikter

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Well, I personally am hating it. Finding out the overlay in enemies' patterns is fun for the first time, but it gets boring as you explore. And even when I try to explore, I realize how linear and claustrophobic the environment is. I'm not saying the game is unbalanced or anything. It's just that it's really time consuming and boring for me.
 

Siveon

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The layout is very reminiscent of older JRPG dungeons. Especially those made for the GBC. It didn't really take me that long to explore anything, and the random encounter rate is actually really low for most JRPGs. Plus it only took me about two days to beat it, so I can't really say much of it. The combat is many things, but time consuming might not very accurate.

Unless you're going for the genocide route and/or exploring every nook and cranny that is. Sounds to me that you're simply not of fan of some elements in older JRPGs. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
 

Vikter

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I liked Earthbound, for example, which had a system where underleveled enemies would just give you the battle spoils without making you go through the trouble of fighting them. In Undertale, I'm doing a Pacifist run right now and since I can't level up, I have to stack on healing items when I can't dodge stuff from new enemies. The problem is that while I'm exploring I get like one or two encounters max per room (like you said, it's a low encounter rate compared to other jRPGs), and I have to do the same thing again, when I already spared that specific type(s) of monster. In the Genocide route you can exhaust the encounters, which makes sense, but the Pacifist run likes something to make "non-combat" more bearable. In Shin Megami Tensei (the closest thing you get to this mechanic), sometimes you can talk to enemies and they won't even attack while you're talking, and this is good. In Undertale you Act once and that's it for the rest of the turn. There should be a more complex layer of conversation instead of doing the same pattern of choices every time even for the weakest enemies.
On the subject of exploring, I still dislike the map layout. Sure, it could pass as something from the GBC (don't know what, though, since even Pokémon is way more open), but it could seriously use an actual hub where you interact with the characters instead of being a big corridor. Maybe it's because the game is trying to convey that it's a quest, and evoking something like a real tale where the character just wander around meeting quirky characters (Wizard of Oz or something), but it also tries to evoke the image of a living world full of cool monster characters, without building a world that does that per se.
 

Eyestabber

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Haven't played Undertale yet but I'm happy that it was made cause apparently the fact of its existence alone is some sort of self-sustainting butthurt and drama generator of massive proportions.

The only difference between this and estrogen-drenched jrpgs is that this was made by an American.

After reading all those posts from people claiming Toby Fox didn't intentionally try to pander to tumblr and simply made a game for himself, I decided to look him up. Unsurprised to see that he's an effeminate 24 year old manlet from Boston, Massachusetts, former home to the creator of Depression Quest and her beta-cuck ex-boyfriend. He is tumblr. Expect to see more of this in the next few years as these urban kids age up into adulthood.

This.

Not even the in-house SJW tumblerina is buying into the "but but, the game isn't meant for tumblerinas, guise!!!" bullshit.
 

Siveon

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On the subject of exploring, I still dislike the map layout. Sure, it could pass as something from the GBC (don't know what, though, since even Pokémon is way more open)
Well, not an RPG, but it reminds me a lot of the Zelda Oracle games on the GBC. As well as the first Mother game, on the NES.
 
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Toby Fox worked on fucking homestuck, aka a webcomic that SA, tumblr, even 4chan loved the shit out of for a while but only tumblr cares about it now. It's not shocking that this game would share similar jokes and themes.
 

Vikter

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Well, not an RPG, but it reminds me a lot of the Zelda Oracle games on the GBC. As well as the first Mother game, on the NES.
I can see that, although both are a little less linear. Undertale would work so well if it was an action adventure and focused on puzzles like Zelda instead of doing what it did, in my opinion. This is why I'm a little against it. It's such a missed opportunity in some areas, which is a shame, because the jokes are great and the music is awesome.
 
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The problem is how do you 'make friends' if it was real time? You could give the player a stun friendship weapon, which just makes me think of the MGS series but one of the main strengths of this game is the players 'act' choices and the monster's response to it. I can't really think of a way that would be able to do both at the same time, Toby Furfag probably came to the same conclusion and just said 'fuck it, i'll do it turn based'.
 

Damned Registrations

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The protagonist is obviously possessed by Satan
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

The gameplay aspect is seriously lacking, and no amount of "mind fucking" by having alternate saves or breaking the fourth wall in practice can save it from being boring in this aspect.

This is actually true. Only 2 fights in the game truly offered a serious challenge. I think I also died once or twice against a couple of the other bosses but that was mostly just due to laziness/underestimating them after being lulled into autopilot. It's a shame the difficulty is so low, the combat would actually be truly great if it was hard enough (the two difficult fights were some of the best fun I'd had in months.)

Edit: I will say that I actually enjoyed the combat anyways, because while the actual bullet dodging was dull, seeing all the different enemies and the different ways I could make them react was entertaining in and of itself. And the boss battles each had novel gimmicks that were enough to pique my interest for the one fight they appear in.
 
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Siveon

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Well, a way of approaching this in real time would simply to have a window open at any time to talk to the foes you're currently fighting. Kingdom Hearts-ish, with being able to scroll through a menu while playing. So, instead of a heart, you'd see the main character walking around Zelda style - still dodging bullets (being able to hit them if you're evil). After a certain amount of time they would get tired or something and then you could talk to them. If you'd try talking to them during an attack it could prompt something like "[blank] isn't listening". I would also structure the game so that each encounter is unique, which would probably make the game shorter than it already.

That would make things a lot more complicated, but because it's top down you might be able to make more sight gags with the player character.
 

felipepepe

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The problem is how do you 'make friends' if it was real time?
I ask that myself everyday. ;_;

But on a serious note, Way of the Samurai does kind of that... at any time during combat you can talk to your enemy, asking him to surrender, begging for mercy or just trying to convince him of something. You can even attack with the back of your blade to just know them out instead of killing them. Not a friendship simulator, but shows that it can be done.
 
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I was talking more about the how could ACTions work in real time, which is very clear they are an essential part that makes the game memorable. You can still make a solid game without them and still make it out to be a pacifist game but you'd be missing what makes the current game memorable. Siveon suggestion sounds like something in right direction keeping the ACTions intact, although it took two years for toby furfag two years make this game. Probably would of added an extra year or two to make it real time.
 

Bradylama

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It's funny how many people accuse Undertale of being a Tumblr SJW game, while lauding AoD, a game where you're forced to roleplay as an Asexual.
 

Dev_Anj

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It's like if I was shitposting in the Witcher subforum because I think Witcher 2 and 3 are unbearable popamole crap (which I believe they are). However, I just ignore that subforum instead.

To be fair, this is supposed to be the discussion thread of a review, and a review is supposed to convince people that a game is great, good, mediocre or bad on the strength of its arguments. Most people here don't seem to be too convinced by the review and so they're expressing their displeasure here. Of course, sometimes people just want to complain because it's a review of a game in a genre they dislike or because they really dislike/like a game and don't care about the review besides that it doesn't match up to their opinion.
 

Dark Matter

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Against my better judgment, I decided to give the demo another try.

Right of the bat, we get a taste of some of that brilliant subversion of player expectations that everyone keeps talking about. The two paths you see in the top left and right are actually blocked off by an invisible wall and instead the correct path is through a black section near the bottom right. I guess consistency in the relationship between art design and level design is too passe for indie hipster trash.

CBaLWBT.png


After encountering the flower, you spend a few minutes following a character through a linear corridor like in every shitty linear AAA game. Oh but it's ok here because the character quite literally holds your hand so it's just a self-aware jab at mainstream gaming. Seeing as the game is supposedly big on subversion, why not subvert something that should actually be subverted? Maybe the goal here was to subvert my expectation for the game to subvert something that should be subverted.

Pretty much all throughout the demo, the level design involves just following a linear corrider until you reach the exit with repetitive combat encounters along the way. Occassionally, you'll drop down an invisible pit, at which point you just take an exit to the previous room, this time trying to cross the room while avoiding the pit. So whenever the game attempts to do something to spice up its boring level design, it fails miserably.

There are combat encounters against the same few enemies every 10 seconds (no exaggeration). Each combat encounter lasts about 30 seconds, and involves the exact same set of actions (click fight/act option for genocide/pacifist run respectively, followed by one round of bullet hell minigame, followed by clicking on mercy option for pacifist playthrough). The demo was a repetitive chore to play through, which is inexcusable for a game that supposedly only takes about 5 hours to finish.

As for that "expert characterization and storytelling" through bullet hell combat, this is what it basically amounts to: Dodging flies when fighting frog monsters, tears when fighting sad ghosts, vegetables when fighting vegetable monsters. The bullet hell patterns are different but considering that each round lasts about 3 seconds, it feels pretty inconsequential one way or another. I don't know why the combat encounter rate wasn't drastically reduced while making each round of bullet hell last longer so you actually need to master each pattern. As it stands, as long as you put yourself in a decent position at the start, you're pretty much set because of how brief each round is. If it lasted longer, constantly scrambling to reposition would make for a slightly more tense and fun experience. I mean it would still be a terrible bullet hell game, but anything is better what's there now.

The combat interface is horrible. There's no reason why all the options shouldn't be available in a single screen instead of hidden behind 4 different sub menus. Older games and handheld games did this because they were restricted by resolution/screen size. What kind of braindead idiot thinks this is actually good design that should be implemented when there's no need for it? Also, it does the whole JRPG thing of each dialog prompt containing like five words with slow text crawl, so you constantly have to keep spamming the Z and X keys, one to go to the next dialog and the other to skip the text crawl.

As for the characters and writing, it turns out that our initial impressions that they come across as a teenage girl's attempts at being quirky/random was pretty much completely accurate. There's the evil flower, a motherly goat, a sad ghost, a talking rock with who refuses to be pushed onto a floor plate like the other rocks, a "spider bake sale" which amounts to a couple of cobwebs you can interact with to buy an item. Truth be told, I think if some of these character concepts were handed to a better writer and if there was more interaction with these characters, they might even be able to come up with something funny and charming. As it stands, the concept is all there is. Take the ghost for example, you come across it pretending to sleep, you initiate combat, you press the "cheer up" action a few times (for pacifist run), it puts on a top hat and calls you nice, and that's it. Don't expect any amusing Monty Python-esque exchanges. At best, the writing is innocuous. At worst, it'll make you roll your eyes. If you're expecting something charming and endearing like in the old Lucasarts adventure games, you won't find it here.

So there, I tried it and it's shit. Considering that several people have been praising the game for how consistent the game is, it's probably fair to assume that the whole game is just as bad. Also, fuck off with that "oh I guess you're just not a fan of these types of games" excuse. Shit design is shit. I don't see anyone here making those concessions for Bethesda & Bioware games (nor should they), which are enjoyed by a much larger population.
 
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If you thought that the ghost was 'PeNgU1N oF d00m' level you've seen/heard nothing yet. I think that the Mad Dummy or Samael So Sorry fit's the bill. The former is a dummy that looks like the one in tutorial but when head for the exit the game pans and zooms on the dummy which now has angry eyes and a dramatic sting is played. The latter is somebody's fursona that was shoved into the game. Toby realized that putting this furry's donut steel screams bad idea, but unwilling to refuse the degenerate's money decides to make the boss only accessible for one day at 8pm for the entire year. So Sorry is both pathetic and annoying as fuck.

In fact Samael the furfag is the main reason why i mocked:

I'm willing to fund shit I like with my near-infinite White MEN generated money, faggot. How about that? Ask any REAL RPG developer around here to see what I do. Fucking kids

You need to understand that furries also have a near-infinite purse as well, as in there are furries who are engineers, doctors, and surgeons who spend their money only on their fetish fueled hobby. They will hold a game's development hostage if their fetishes are not catered to. The only way through funding games you're going to stop these fucks is either out bid the degenerates so thus spineless devs consider you more important or know that the developer has a fucking backbone, which is in rare supplies these days.
 

TigerKnee

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For what its worth, I don't think the review should have taken the "I don't want to spoil anything but it's really good, trust me guys" path - there's already a whole bunch of those on the Internet. Just give them the "spoiler warning" at the start and then really go in-depth on dissecting the game.

and I have to do the same thing again, when I already spared that specific type(s) of monster.
I was under the impression that after you spared a monster once, you can automatically mercy them the next time you encounter one... or just run away, because all you get is money anyway for healing items if you don't need if you can dodge things.
 

Siveon

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I vaguely remember something like that. I might have to check, but that would make things a lot faster.
 

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