Review RPG Codex Review: Undertale

[Dark Matter]

It's amusing seeing the people who tried the game and didn't like it discuss only the least memorable moments in the game, as they clearly didn't go out of their way to explore things while playing. I'm not going to say these people should try it again and play differently, if that's how you played then you clearly don't give a crap about exploring and wouldn't enjoy finding the neat stuff anyways. But there is clearly a type of person that doesn't like this game, and I'd feel sorry for them if they weren't also being misleading cunts, like someone who played through Fallout without ever reading dialogue and just murder-hoboing through the whole game complaining about the bad combat.

What are these memorable moments? Considering that the game forces you into a pointless, repetitive combat encounter every damn 10 seconds, you'll have to excuse me if I didn't feel the urge to stand around and painstakingly find every single interaction and detail. However, I still tried to interact with nearly everything in the demo and I did read all the dialog. It's possible I missed some more of the more obscure things but I'd say my experience was representative of what someone would experience playing the game for the first time.

Anyways, I thought what made Undertale special and beyond explanation is that everything about it is well-designed with nothing obvious that sticks out. Now you guys are telling me my assessment isn't valid because I didn't experience all the super special moments.

 

[Dev_Anj]

Remember my post where I said it's the onus of the artist to make sure they aren't wasting the time of their potential audience? The same is true here; just because a game may have interesting things hidden somewhere doesn't mean that it shouldn't try to interest people going through the main path or that some paths should be dull. These bring down the game as a whole and also ensure that people who do have their experience hurt by it don't feel like returning back to it.

Also, ignoring the dialogue of a game is much more different than trying to explore the entirety of a game just because some fans insist there's good content hidden somewhere there.

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

Considering that the game forces you into a pointless, repetitive combat encounter every damn 10 seconds

Other than the ruins (which is a pretty bad area really) this really isn't true.

 

[Vikter]

It's amusing seeing the people who tried the game and didn't like it discuss only the least memorable moments in the game, as they clearly didn't go out of their way to explore things while playing. I'm not going to say these people should try it again and play differently, if that's how you played then you clearly don't give a crap about exploring and wouldn't enjoy finding the neat stuff anyways. But there is clearly a type of person that doesn't like this game, and I'd feel sorry for them if they weren't also being misleading cunts, like someone who played through Fallout without ever reading dialogue and just murder-hoboing through the whole game complaining about the bad combat.

What are these memorable moments? Considering that the game forces you into a pointless, repetitive combat encounter every damn 10 seconds, you'll have to excuse me if I didn't feel the urge to stand around and painstakingly find every single interaction and detail. However, I still tried to interact with nearly everything in the demo and I did read all the dialog. It's possible I missed some more of the more obscure things but I'd say my experience was representative of what someone would experience playing the game for the first time.

Anyways, I thought what made Undertale special and beyond explanation is that everything about it is well-designed with nothing obvious that sticks out. Now you guys are telling me my assessment isn't valid because I didn't experience all the super special moments.

You have to replay it three or four times to "get it".

And something I forgot to say in my other post: a genre is defined by its mecânica, mostly, and personally, I don't think the combat is a core mechanic in Undertale in the sense that it would be missed if it was different. It's obviously a gameplay mechanic, but it would work better if it was less intrusive, which it was, for me. In games like PoE, you get experience from doing non-combat stuff, which is cool and works in that setting of adventure and shit. In Undertale it wouldn't make a lot of sense because the game os actively trying to subvert the genre by having the different routes and options. If it didn't have a leveling system at all, it wouldn't subvert anything but would, in my opinion, play better because it could be better designed around the status quo of the character's strenghts. And it wouldn't matter if it was turn-based or not, if it remained consistent, which could happen by having non-combat options outside of combat, which doesn't really happen. Everytime you have to be diplomatic you are on a fight.

 

[Dark Matter]

I am currently playing the game and if nothing else the dialog battles are pleasant and make the game particular. I mean, I am not particularly interested in pacifist playthrough through stealth and fleeing, but dialog battles are generally a good thing. Some dialog battles in Arcanum for example are better thant those of Undertale, so far, but you can't resolve every encounter in Arcanum via dialog.

This is just an insulting comparison.

First of all, in Undertale, both the genocide and pacifist approaches to combat play out almost the same. You're forced into a combat encounter and you go through one or more rounds of bullet hell minigame in both cases. It's just that some of the options you click during combat are different.

Secondly, it's very easy to write non-combat encounters with the sort of minimalist approach that Undertale has to character design, where characters are all just a random assortment of objects & animals with a singular trait that defines what sort of actions are available in the act menu. E.g. there's the sad ghost who you avoid combat with by selecting "cheer up". In comparison, Arcanum is a relatively more grounded game with believable characters in believable situations with believable dialog options to convince them to avoid combat.

 

[Bubbles]

Somebody should do an "Undertale vs. Arcanum" blow-by-blow analysis. Frontpage exposure guaranteed.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

"Undertale vs Crimzon Clover, who is the king of bullet hell?!"

Spoiler

It's Crimzon Clover.

Spoiler

I could actually write something like that after I get around to actually playing Undertale sometime this month. Wouldn't generate much butthurt though, so no point.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Spoilers ahead because IDGAF at this point, everyone who's willing to try the game by now already has.

Spoiler

First of all, the notion that all the enemies are entirely one dimensional and the various actions are equivalent to just fighting isn't true. While that might be the case for a portion of the enemies (and admittedly the start is bad for this because they're all simple enemies because it's a tutorial) there are examples of rather complex encounters as early as before reaching the first town. The 'Greater Dog' enemy has a large number of ways to interact with him and end the battle, like ignoring him until he becomes bored and leaves, or making him get too excited and pass out, etc. These do all just play out for gags as opposed to tangible rewards, but it's certainly much more interesting than the descriptions of 'frogs shoot flies and thats all' that people have been giving as examples of the combat.
Here's a list of all the flavour text just from this one particular enemy:
Flavor Text

• It's so excited that it thinks fighting is just play. [Check]
• It's the Greater Dog. [Encounter]
• Greater Dog is seeking affection. [Neutral]
• Greater Dog is waiting for your command. [Neutral]
• Greater Dog is watching you intently. [Neutral]
• Greater Dog is not excited enough to play with. [Play]
• You call the Greater Dog. It bounds toward you, flecking slobber into your face. [Beckon]
• Greater Dog's ears perk up. Nothing else happens. [Beckon again]
• Greater Dog curls up in your lap as it is pet by you. It gets so comfortable it falls asleep... Zzzzz... ... Then it wakes up! It's so excited! [Pet after Beckon or Ignore]
• Greater Dog's excitement is creating a power field that prevents petting. [Pet again]
• You make a snowball and throw it for the dog to fetch. It splats on the ground. Greater Dog picks up all the snow in the area and brings it to you. Now dog is very tired... It rests its head on you... [Play after Pet]
• As you pet the dog, it sinks its entire weight into you... Your movements slow. But, you still haven't pet enough...! [Pet after Play]
• You pet decisively. Pet capacity reaches 100 percent. The dog flops over with its legs hanging in the air. [Pet #2 after Play]
• Tummy rubs are forbidden. [Pet again]
• Greater Dog is too tired to play. [Play again]
• Greater Dog inches closer. [Ignore]
• Greater Dog is making puppy-dog eyes. [Ignore 3 times]
• Greater Dog decides you are too boring. [Ignore 4+ times]
• Greater Dog is patting the ground with its front paws. [Neutral after petting]
• Greater Dog wants some TLC. [Neutral after playing]
• Pet capacity is 40-percent. [Neutral after petting again]
• Greater Dog just wants affection. [Neutral after ignoring]
• Greater Dog is contented. [Neutral after meeting spare conditions]
• You threw the stick and the dog ran to get it. You played fetch for a while. [Use Stick]
• Greater Dog is panting slowly. [Low HP]

It is rather facetious to have all that available to you and then claim that there was nothing distinguishing it from the frogs.

Outside of combat, even in the tutorial portion of the game before you've left the ruins, there are things like the way the candy pillar reacts if you take more than one piece, or Flowy creepily being behind you that you can notice before he burrows away if you backtrack in many places. The game also reacts to subtle things like whether or not you were injured before reaching the house, or if you kill the frogs in the random encounters, they won't be waiting further along in the ruins to give you advice. There's like half a dozen extra pieces of dialogue written just in case you were curious enough to find out what happens if you just sit and wait for Toriel to come back after she tells you to wait for her while she runs her errand. The game is utterly crammed with details like these that most of the detractors seemed to have not noticed at all.

Comparing this to something like Skyrim where you can shove buckets on people's heads without provoking a reaction is it that hard to see why players would be enamoured with a game that actually responds to things they do?

 

[Jasede]

Bro are you retarded, it's exactly like the frogs. You still only click on menu options and dodge, it's the same fucking thing; it's exactly like Bloodlines and Call of Duty 3; in both games all you do is move your mouse, click the right mouse button and hit WASD a bunch. Samey garbage.

 

[Vikter]

Aren't all flavor text just flavor, though? Not to shit on the game's best factor (dialogue is great), but there's always only one solution that must be repeated. I think some enemies have alternate tactics to be spared, but his biggest complaint is that they all feel the same, aside from the dialogue. After you have done it once, you don't even need to read and that makes it more of a puzzle that you have to repeat than a conversation per se.
For example, there was an enemy in the second area of the game who made ice jokes. You just need to wait until he tells it and then laugh, which makes sense. There are a lot of different nomes as well, but you don't need to read the other ones after you done it once. In other games with dialogue-based non-combat you usually have to pay attention and talk instead of solving a puzzle again and again. I'm not even talking about CRPGs. Shin Megami Tensei has a similar mechanic but adds more diversity. Even though it's RNG-based, at least you have to actually read and participate in the dialogue.

And while I can't complain about the easter eggs and cool snippets when you examine stuff, I'll just say that they are not an essencial thing. They are more like a bonus that won't sway people who are not fond of the game's main aspects.

 

[Irenaeus II]

#LMAO those interactions are great, maybe I'll play this after all. Hilarious shit.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Spoilers ahead because IDGAF at this point, everyone who's willing to try the game by now already has.

... and this was one of the supposed heavy spoilers whose spoiling will spoil the entire game FOREVAR?

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

more like, ahaha, Blundercuck. UnderLAME am i right

 

[Ellef]

Well now i've got to fire it up to read minor variation flavor text. Good thing you spoilered it.

 

[Black_Willow]

more like, ahaha, Blundercuck. UnderLAME am i right

 

[Damned Registrations]

Well, if I'd spoilered anything serious there were pretty decent odds one of you asshats would have just quoted it. I still think that reading about those things completely sucks the fun out of all of them though. For a game that's only ~4 hours long for a single playthrough, sucking the fun out of half an hour of it is rather significant.

but there's always only one solution that must be repeated

I -just- posted an example of that not being the case. WTF.

 

[TigerKnee]

Aren't all flavor text just flavor, though? ...
...Even though it's RNG-based, at least you have to actually read and participate in the dialogue.

Those flavor text are usually hints for the next step you should take though - isn't that basically "participating in the dialogue"?

 

[Eyestabber]

It really feels like the entire purpose of this review and this thread is to give RPG Elitists™ the middle finger. As it has been pointed out, the review pulls the "trust me, it's awesome!!!!" card and barely talks about the "game". Then it tries to convince us that a games whose core gameplay mechanics relies on playing a bunch of crappy minigames is somehow good. Then the reviewer tries to shove post-modernist crap like "le intentional design flaw" down our throats. And then it just goes full "degenerate and proud of it!" with tsuderplanes and whatnot, ending with a classic "the game gave me funneh feelings, you should try it too!".

This is a non-review of a non-game, exactly the kind of crap that sites like Derpasutra is about. If you really feel the need to "stick it to the gaming conservatards" then might as well go all out. Ask that potatojohn guy for a Fo4 review. I hear Todd is a very forgiving guy (because he lacks reactivity ).

 

[Ellef]

How many hours have you spents yiffing to this furry games characters? Longer than your average playthrough?

furfagcodex

 

[Vikter]

And I said right after that how there are enemies with alternate solution. You know, the discussion would be much better if you were interested in discussion points without bias instead of trying to look right all the time. More people here are trying to have a healthy discussion about the merits of the game than shitting on it without reason and even went and tried the game. I don't know why this game must be held in such an altar even when discussion minor things.

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

more like, ahaha, Blundercuck. UnderLAME am i right

 

[Irenaeus II]

It really feels like the entire purpose of this review and this thread is to give RPG Elitists™ the middle finger.

Woah, I now can't see this review and thread as anything else than a response to that Roqua thread on Site Feedback. What has been seen can't be unseen.

 

[Damned Registrations]

And I said right after that how there are enemies with alternate solution. You know, the discussion would be much better if you were interested in discussion points without bias instead of trying to look right all the time. More people here are trying to have a healthy discussion about the merits of the game than shitting on it without reason and even went and tried the game. I don't know why this game must be held in such an altar even when discussion minor things.

I mean, maybe you cannot into english, but saying that "X is always Y" followed by "I think maybe sometimes X isn't Y" is a contradiction. The discussion would be much better if you were interested in making coherent points rather than repeating talking points you know aren't true.

 

[Durandal]

I don't think anyone's opinion on the Codex about Undertale has changed since the publishing of this review

 

[Vikter]

And I said right after that how there are enemies with alternate solution. You know, the discussion would be much better if you were interested in discussion points without bias instead of trying to look right all the time. More people here are trying to have a healthy discussion about the merits of the game than shitting on it without reason and even went and tried the game. I don't know why this game must be held in such an altar even when discussion minor things.

I mean, maybe you cannot into english, but saying that "X is always Y" followed by "I think maybe sometimes X isn't Y" is a contradiction. The discussion would be much better if you were interested in making coherent points rather than repeating talking points you know aren't true.

Or maybe it's called an exception.