Review RPG Codex Review: Undertale

[ArchAngel]

What's the name of his game again, I need to buy it before they die.

It's not that we are going to die soon but we definitely will rethink our approach. Our bet on this niche was not a good bet overall, and there are other issues as well. Now in the survival mode difficulty, novelty, experiments will go out the door. Good difficult hardcore games will still be present in the market I think but mostly done by bigger companies. I think the whole niche is too small for indies to live on it. And I think it's time again to go back to publishers - releasing on Steam without marketing is not enough anymore, and Steam has moved definitely a few steps closer to the app store in this regard.

More like the market is oversaturated with games. I for one never bought or played it because I always have something else to play. When also games like WL2DC, D:OS and some others are bought but waiting for my time, that is the true dilemma.

 

[Lurker King]

They're not reinvigorating the genre, they're beating a dead old horse when most people stopped caring about horses long ago and are now riding cars.

Darkest Dungeon is a dungeon crawler, niche of the niche, in a beaten genre, and sold over 400k in early access. "Age of Decadence" subverted many of the established conventions of the genre; abolishing filler content, unnecessary walking, and making players suffer for their irrational cRPG habits. The game sold 15k in early access. The difference has nothing to do with originality whatsoever.

 

[Lurker King]

Game is successful because it has a lot of ♥

You have the critical skills of a five year old. “Age of Decadence” took 11 years to be made, and “Underrail” seven years to be made, so they’re lifeless games, without love, because they sold less than “Undertale”. Sure, “Shower With Your Dad Simulator 2015” also sold more than these two games, so it’s also a better game. However, “Pillars of Eternity” is even better, because it sold more than 500k units. Ok. Fallout 4 sold more than 12 million copies, so it is in a whole new level of greatness, better than “Undertale” and all the rest, and Skyrm is the best cRPG of all time, because it sold the most. Sure, the sales represent a very reliable criteria.

 

[felipepepe]

So it's a standard tutorial then. I don't see why you'd find it so very impressive to present it in its entirety and say that it was so very impressive and special (I mean come the fuck on, 'wow suddenly the font changes!')

Tutorials just teach you how to play - this scene sets the tone for the entire game, from the clever use of fonts & sound to the "not what you think it is" vibe.

Using different fonts to showcase the characters personality may sound basic, but when was the last time you saw that? Besides EVIL DEMON SPEAKING IN ALL CAPS BOLD? This is one of the things Undertale does well, using "obvious" details that almost no one else uses.

In that case, two questions:

1. Why is 'standard jrpg fair combat' followed by a shmup something very important and thematically consistent with the game? Do you control a jetplane with spiky hair flying ever forward to kill Sephiroth?
2. To ask again, why is "standard fair combat" followed by a standard fair bullet hell something super super unique? Because it looks to me like it's standard fair jrpg combat followed by standard fair bullet hell.

1. Because each monsters has a unique pattern that ties to its personality & the games plot. For example, one of the game's characters is an over-protective monster that tries to stop you from leaving her. You must battle her, but she'll never kill you - once you're low on health, she'll make her attacks avoid you and will awkwardly look to the side. Her personality is present both in dialog & character design, but also in the way she fights. VERY FEW games ever do this.

2. It's an JRPG where you battle via SHUMP. Unless you got some examples to name, I'd say that alone is pretty unique. The fact that it manages to use that to tell stories makes it stand out even more.

Not being able to pause in Dark Souls has the practical application of making the game harder, it's the same as not pausing in Gothic when switching to the inventory. That's a design decision based on a pretty clear premise, and I'd say it can be hardly judged objectively on a flaw/merit scale. Saying that this is an "intentional design flaw" or that it's in some way "not ideal" is idiotic. It's a decision, it could be wise or stupid. Ris3n pausing when you switch to the inventory is also a design decision, but it's a stupid decision. I highly doubt that, again, Piranha Bytes actively decided to intentionally put in flaws into their games.

On the other hand, making sure the game is boring has the practical application of... ???

Of making the player really go out of his way to get to do the Genocide route. This isn't "lol, I'll pick the red choice in the dialog wheel cause I'm evil!" - part of the game's purpose is to question why the hell you're doing all this.

Declaring that something is the x-est ever is a very easy thing to do. Whether that statement has any grounding in reality is a completely different matter.

You mean like "This is literally the worst game I haven't played to date. That’s right, I even had more fun with Dungeon Siege 3 - at least it was a fun romp, as opposed to this lifeless, uninspired husk."?

I thought PoE was Obsidian's worst game. Be consistent bro.

 

[Siveon]

Darkest Dungeon is a dungeon crawler, niche of the niche, in a beaten genre, and sold over 400k in early access.

I'm not sure what you're arguing about here, but Darkest Dungeon owes a lot of its success to publicity and recent trends.

Darkest Dungeon had free publicity by streamers. It's also part of the now-popular roguelite scene, with a promise of lovecraft themes (which is also very hip to like) and difficulty (Dark Souls made that 'cool' again). The successful Kickstarter also helped it gain a lot of buzz. Another similar example would be FTL. More apt examples of dungeon crawlers still being niche would be ones that fit the bill more closer. Such as Paper Sorcerer or Elminage.

If Age of Decadence followed these sort of trends (I'm glad it didn't), it would probably be much more popular.

game is hyped everywhere form youtube, mainsteram sites to metacritic and hipsters from steam = it didn't have too much hype

It didn't have much hype before its release. Only about a month later since it blew up (somehow) did the game reach critical mass.

Anyone else getting deja vu from this thread? It feels awfully familiar, colored text included.

 

[Durandal]

We've already established difficulty has never held a game back, so point 2 is moot.

 

[Alex]

ah
the meme meme

 

[Lurker King]

I'm not sure what you're arguing about here, but Darkest Dungeon owes a lot of its success to publicity and recent trends.

Darkest Dungeon had free publicity by streamers. It's also part of the now-popular roguelite scene, with a promise of lovecraft themes (which is also very hip to like) and difficulty (Dark Souls made that 'cool' again). The successful Kickstarter also helped it gain a lot of buzz. Another similar example would be FTL. More apt examples of dungeon crawlers still being niche would be ones that fit the bill more closer. Such as Paper Sorcerer or Elminage.

I don't buy it. "NEO Scavenger" is also a roguelike, but its sales was nothing in comparison with "Darkest Dungeon". Besides, "AoD" is also dificulty, in fact, it's much more dificulty than arcade games like "Dark Souls". I agree with you that kickstarter would increase the sales of "AoD", but the game would suffer from it. I think that the fact that "Darkest Dungeon" was ported to PlayStation 4 also increased the sales a little bit.

 

[Malpercio]

A lot of people are being triggered in this thread.

 

[Siveon]

I don't buy it. "NEO Scavenger" is also a roguelike, but its sales was nothing in comparison with "Darkest Dungeon". Besides, "AoD" is also dificulty, in fact, it's much more dificulty than arcade games like "Dark Souls". I agree with you that kickstarter would increase the sales of "AoD", but the game would suffer from it. I think that the fact that "Darkest Dungeon" was ported to PlayStation 4 also increased the sales a little bit.

Red Apples and somewhat less popular yellow apples, I think. It's not just because of the fact that it's a roguelike or that it's difficult. Many better games can lay claim to those to factors yet they don't sell at all or even put a twinkle in the eye of [insert popular Youtuber here]. At the risk of repeating myself, it's the theme, the streams, the build up and hype. The presentation looks better in a trailer, and the people oh so love a nifty gr1md0rk presentation. Not to mention that in advertising for this game, you could easily piggyback other games for people to draw a relation to it. And yeah, PS4 also helps.

What Age of Decadence excels at, what I find entertaining, isn't something that can really be advertised as easily. And for something like NEO Scavenger, I think it's too much like a roguelike. It actually emulates that difficulty pretty closely, and if you look at the reviews, that's what the people are complaining about. If I had to make a guess, it's that the people want something sorta challenging, but not something that would throw you out the game in one wrong move (i.e Neo Scavenger). Not saying DD is bad or anything (don't know, don't care), but it's much easier to resonate with your would-be advertisements (streams).

but the game would suffer from it

As if that matters in terms of sales.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Haven't played undertale, but reading comments I have a feeling it all just boils down to a discussion similar to the discussion about what makes a better story: surprising and unexpected plot twists versus solid writing, character development and build ups to events. My vote is on the latter but the well done former can still be much fun.

 

[Excidium II]

Haven't played undertale, but reading comments I have a feeling it all just boils down to a discussion similar to the discussion about what makes a better story:

Memes

 

[Dreaad]

 

[Damned Registrations]

What memes are in Undertale exactly?

 

[Siveon]

What memes are in Undertale exactly?

Spoiler

In the genocide route, I believe Sans says that "You're gonna have a bad time". Or something to that effect, referring to that one South Park segment that was turned into those early 00's memes.

Other than that, I dunno. Not even 100% sure what a meme is.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I completely forgot that was even a thing. Jesus I feel old suddenly.

 

[Crooked Bee]

I haven't beaten Undertale yet (it's still on my backlog), but from what I can tell from my admittedly brief time with it, its writing is not meme-based or about memes.

I think some people may be confusing the fact that parts of Undertale may have become memes, with stuff like e.g. Wasteland 2 meming about "arrow in the knee" (which itself wasn't a meme in Skyrim, but became one thanks to the game's popularity).

 

[Azarkon]

So all in all, Eisenwald strikes me as a game that doesn't know who its audience is, and certainly doesn't know how to market itself, because even within the Codex, by nature sympathetic to such games, it's rarely talked about. It commits just about every cardinal sin there is when it comes to video game marketing, and tries to hit a market - European historical fantasy - that has never done that well outside of existing franchises in the past decade. In fact, our favorite Vince D. Weller's Age of Decadence has the exact same problem, which is why it and Eisenwald both sold like shit. It's though the elitist Codex fosters a concept of what a RPG ought to be that doesn't match what people actually want to pay for... Now why would that be, I wonder?

In any case, I'll be fair: I don't think the Codex ever called for historical fantasy lite European settings, which coincidentally is what both Age of Decadence and Legends of Eisenwald ultimately went for, to their mutual detriment. I don't know what it is with developers who style themselves hardcore Fallout fans setting their games in medieval/classical Europe. I suppose there is reason to believe, with Game of Thrones being all the rage, that there is a market for this out there. But I don't think Age of Decadence and Legends of Eisenwald are marketed correctly for that audience. After all, it's not the tactical medieval combat that's fueling the trend on TV - it's the story and the characters. And come to think of it, that's been the recipe for success for all new RPGs, including JRPG lites.

I'm pretty sure AoD sold like shit not because of the setting but
1. lack of hype / free publicity from youtube celebrites/ 4-chan/ reddit/ mainstream sites like gamespot( unlike undertale )
2. very hard combat
3. the fact that combat is turn-based is not helping with sales either.
They may be other less important reasons ( graphics is not on par with AAA games, iso camera, lack of multiplayer / co-op ) but first 2 are imo main reasons why AoD sold so shitty.

I'm pretty sure it does have to do with the setting, as had it been marketed as Baldur's Gate 3 with the D&D license and a story line & characters appropriate for such a setting, I'm sure it'd have done 5-10 times as well.

But even besides that "ideal," here we are talking about a game solidly in the midst of an established and successful industry ie indie JRPGs, and trying to contrast it with Legends of Eisenwald and Age of Decadence, both of which have no market to speak of besides the one they're trying to carve out of sheer will thinking it must exist as the Codex keeps talking about it. But the fact of the matter is, even besides the quality of the games themselves, just knowing what sells and what has sold in the past decade leads me to having a very difficult time imagining financial success for medieval/classical European fantasy games that focus on turn-based tactical combat as opposed to story & characters. All the best indie RPGs that didn't rely on an existing franchise/developer hype, and which weren't action RPGs, used story & characters to achieve their success and that's where the money looks to be.

The market is fickle but it is not as illogical and random as people think. There are plenty of parallels between Legends of Eiswenwald and Age of Decadence in terms of why they didn't succeed. When I have time I'll add a few other examples, too.

 

[mondblut]

Why am I invited into a thread about some hipster crap?

Let's ask mondblut about kotc vs goldbox.

About KOTC vs goldbox, he is right. About delving into a pool of diarrhea hoping that there is something inside that surprisingly won't infect you with dysentery, not so much.

 

[Infinitron]

Azarkon Seriously, nobody looks at Age of Decadence and says "This is a historical medieval/classical European turn-based tactical combat game, just like Eisenwald". How did that idea that even get in your head

(Also, is Alex Dergay a Fallout fan?)

All the best indie RPGs that didn't rely on an existing franchise/developer hype, and which weren't action RPGs, used story & characters to achieve their success

Can you give us a list of these indie RPGs that didn't rely on existing franchise/developer hype and achieved success?

 

[ArchAngel]

So all in all, Eisenwald strikes me as a game that doesn't know who its audience is, and certainly doesn't know how to market itself, because even within the Codex, by nature sympathetic to such games, it's rarely talked about. It commits just about every cardinal sin there is when it comes to video game marketing, and tries to hit a market - European historical fantasy - that has never done that well outside of existing franchises in the past decade. In fact, our favorite Vince D. Weller's Age of Decadence has the exact same problem, which is why it and Eisenwald both sold like shit. It's though the elitist Codex fosters a concept of what a RPG ought to be that doesn't match what people actually want to pay for... Now why would that be, I wonder?

In any case, I'll be fair: I don't think the Codex ever called for historical fantasy lite European settings, which coincidentally is what both Age of Decadence and Legends of Eisenwald ultimately went for, to their mutual detriment. I don't know what it is with developers who style themselves hardcore Fallout fans setting their games in medieval/classical Europe. I suppose there is reason to believe, with Game of Thrones being all the rage, that there is a market for this out there. But I don't think Age of Decadence and Legends of Eisenwald are marketed correctly for that audience. After all, it's not the tactical medieval combat that's fueling the trend on TV - it's the story and the characters. And come to think of it, that's been the recipe for success for all new RPGs, including JRPG lites.

I'm pretty sure AoD sold like shit not because of the setting but
1. lack of hype / free publicity from youtube celebrites/ 4-chan/ reddit/ mainstream sites like gamespot( unlike undertale )
2. very hard combat
3. the fact that combat is turn-based is not helping with sales either.
They may be other less important reasons ( graphics is not on par with AAA games, iso camera, lack of multiplayer / co-op ) but first 2 are imo main reasons why AoD sold so shitty.

I'm pretty sure it does have to do with the setting, as had it been marketed as Baldur's Gate 3 with the D&D license and a story line & characters appropriate for such a setting, I'm sure it'd have done 5-10 times as well.

I am pretty sure AoD lack of success has nothing to do with the name. Even BGEE is considered hardcore and unwelcoming to average gamers, AoD is 2x that. Its lack of sales can only be attributed to its dev's stubbornness around how it was designed for the niche of the niche.

 

[Dev_Anj]

I think the best description I've heard of what makes this game enjoyable is that it is consistently surprising enough to keep you interested the whole way through. It does that through a lot of different ways, from the humour, to little easter eggs and secrets, to the way the game reacts to you (not just in the endings but in little ways along the way) to the plot itself. Hence why people are reluctant to spoil any of it- it kills that part of the game, like explaining a joke. If you're not willing to spend 10 minutes to try the fucking game why should anyone spend an hour trying to convince you it's worth playing without spoiling it?

Even if that's really the case, there's no reason why it couldn't be done with better writing, better art, non obnoxious characters etc. Besides, that doesn't really do a good job of selling me on the game since it makes it look like the only notable thing this game has is shock value. Know who else packs their stories with twist after twist? Abbas Mustan and M. Night Shyamalan.

Also as said, there's nothing special about doing metacommentary and reacting to the player's actions, there are many games which have done this before, most prominent being Kojima's MGS series. It may indeed have a very high amount of reactivity, but that's not what people are taking an issue with, they're taking an issue with the seemingly core content of the game.

Indeed Youtube playthroughs are not the same as playing the game, but they can give an idea about the story, pacing, gameplay type etc. A game having lot of reactivity or lots of choices is pointless if the choices the player stumbles on aren't good or enjoyable for him/her, as they won't feel interested in replaying the game. In that way, Youtube playthroughs can represent how specific choices play out, and if they aren't good there's little reason for most people to bother with the game.

That's not going into how some aspects of the meta commentary would have no place in a serious game or how it's the onus of the artist to not waste their potential audience's time and to engage them right from the start.

 

[Irenaeus II]

I don't think the Codex ever called for historical fantasy lite European settings, which coincidentally is what both Age of Decadence and Legends of Eisenwald ultimately went for, to their mutual detriment.

 

[Irenaeus II]

lol I had much more brofists than her before DU zeroed them after I quoted a joke by Lundb that she had enthralled DU with magical vagina powers. Also, Ulmicati has more brofists than her, 4x more if I'm correct. Yeah, I had more brofists then him before some betting shit happened too.

Ok, but she only has 2000+ posts. It is an insane ratio which only means her opinion and likes are super highly regarded on this forum. And when such a person glorifies a shit game like Undertale logical thinking only brings me to conclusion that most of Codex would agree with her. So Codex is not the droid I am looking for..

She also got bonus brofists for ebing a woman or some shit. It's safe to say Undertalew is a success with girls and gyno-like people such Jasede e @felipepepepepepepe.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I mean, at this point anyone who's read this whole thread could have just downloaded the demo and actually tried the game instead. Says more about the people in this thread than the game if you ask me.