RPG Codex's Top 50 vs. Age of Incline Poll

[Lady_Error]

What kind of results can you get from this, when you are asking me to select up to 25 games when I've only played 12?

Create another poll asking people how many RPG's they played. I'd be interested in the result actually, though I think you're definitely on the lower end of things among the people here.

 

[Lady_Error]

I'm surprised D:OS is doing so badly compared to AOD and even Underrail. Both D:OS an D:OS2 were GOTY, so what happened?

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

edit- Looking again in 2014 Dragon age origins was good enough to be considered top 50, yeah it's safe to say this place by 2014 has declined to near gamespot levels.

DAO is about where it belongs. Good enough to be in the Top50, but not awesome enough to be higher than its position.

One is bound to have disagreements with a list (and I haven't played Morrowind), eg for the life of me I don't get what people see in IWD. But generally the Codex produces the only worthy RPG lists that I 've seen and the one here is not bad either. Btw, the top 50/70 list saved my life when I was getting into RPGs, because everyone else was recommending Skyrims and Mass Effects.

Well I consider DAO a game only degenerates and imbeciles could enjoy. Among other games on the list but that one stands out as one of the worst on there.

Firstly Trashos , I can understand why you personally might not like IWD. IWD has never been no.1 on any poll of best cRPGs ever. It's never cited as a masterpiece. It's supposed failings are self-evident and are the same points raised by everyone who doesn't like it. But to steadfastly refuse to understand why it's popular enough to get a strong placement, to be incapable of understanding how neatly IWD fulfils a very specific cRPG itch is just plane bone headed.

Secondly Micormic , when I did my polls last year I didn't even include DA:O in the cRPG vote, because the game was designed from the ground up as a simultaneous console release, that's why it's general mechanics are so weak and why it feels considerably uninspired by comparison to previous Bioware D&D fare. Also, a bit like Pillars of Eternity, this was Bioware trying to invent their own copy-paste D&D, so it also had that sheen of pound-shop fake. But, again, the issues with DA:O are the same issues that everyone knows and accepts, but to steadfastly refuse to understand why it was popular enough to get a placement, to be incapable of understanding how neatly DA:O fulfils a very specific RPG itch is just plain bone headed.

With both these games, what one can say should be obvious in both examples, is that they are undisputedly RPGs, something that cannot be said for a vast number of games on the lists. You could argue that, in hindsight, and with deep anal analysis, they could be construed as not perfect examples of RPGs, you could pick nitpicks, but there's no other gaming categories that these games even come close to as much as they do to RPG.

& so while I can fully understand someone disliking either of these games, finding flaws, finding stuff to, rightly, criticise, I honestly can't understand how someone who claims to find RPGs to be their favourite genre of game can not be comfortable either playing these games nor understanding why they might have a lot of fandom in the RPG sphere. It would be like trying to claim you don't understand why Cornflakes sells so well when people could buy Frosties or Crunchy Nut Cornflakes instead.

 

[octavius]

Create another poll asking people how many RPG's they played. I'd be interested in the result actually, though I think you're definitely on the lower end of things among the people here.

That's already been done.
It's a while back, though.

 

[Lady_Error]

Good to see that the top position among age of "incline" games isn't even an RPG.

Age of Decadence is not an RPG?

 

[Lady_Error]

Create another poll asking people how many RPG's they played. I'd be interested in the result actually, though I think you're definitely on the lower end of things among the people here.

That's already been done.
It's a while back, though.

Finished is not the same as played though. The numbers for "played but didn't finish" should be a lot higher than finished games.

 

[ScrotumBroth]

I'm surprised D:OS is doing so badly compared to AOD and even Underrail. Both D:OS an D:OS2 were GOTY, so what happened?

GOTY is not really something to hold on to. Have you seen the competition for DOS2 poll?

 

[canakin]

lol some fallout 1.5 faggot shit on the list but not tactics.

 

[Black]

Oh boy, more pop lists.

 

[Morkar Left]

No Starflight 1 and 2 or Magic Candle. Poll sucks and OP is a faggot.

 

[Lady_Error]

No Starflight 1 and 2 or Magic Candle. Poll sucks and OP is a faggot.

Nobody voted for them in felipepepe's Top 50 cRPG's of all time poll. So you have only the Codex to blame.

 

[Morkar Left]

No Starflight 1 and 2 or Magic Candle. Poll sucks and OP is a faggot.

Nobody voted for them in felipepepe's Top 50 cRPG's of all time poll. So you have only the Codex to blame.

Because that poll is bullshit and codex is full of faggots.

 

[Trashos]

Firstly Trashos , I can understand why you personally might not like IWD. IWD has never been no.1 on any poll of best cRPGs ever. It's never cited as a masterpiece. It's supposed failings are self-evident and are the same points raised by everyone who doesn't like it. But to steadfastly refuse to understand why it's popular enough to get a strong placement, to be incapable of understanding how neatly IWD fulfils a very specific cRPG itch is just plane bone headed.

Oh, I am not saying that IWD shouldn't be on the Top 50 list at all. I just think it ranks too high. It is interesting to look at the most popular combatfag games on the above list. As of this time, we have:

Underrail 35 (29.4%)
IWD 34 (28.6%)
Jagged Alliance 2 34 (28.6%)
Temple of Elemental Evil 29 (24.4%)

I am ashamed to not have played ToEE (I was having savegame errors when I tried), so I 'll comment on the rest. I don't think IWD is of the same calibre as Underrail or JA2.

(Btw, I think we need a Codex Top Combatfag list)

 

[Bocian]

Only 12 votes for Grimoire? This is a fraud.

 

[DalekFlay]

Yes, all such poll will be influenced by how many games you've played, with older games less played, Fallout from 1997 being the great divide.
You can never get a "true" list. Even if by some fluke every codexer agreed to play all the old classics before voting, it still wouldn't be objective, 'cause if you started playing with Fallout, you may have a very hard time adjusting to the UI of older games, while a relic of the past like me had no problems whatsover with the UI when playing Wiz 1 for the first time a few years ago.

My gaming tastes are pretty much entirely rooted in my teenage love of Fallout 1/2, Baldur's Gate, Thief 2, Deus Ex and Morrowind. Everything I like all through today is pretty much rooted in those.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Firstly Trashos , I can understand why you personally might not like IWD. IWD has never been no.1 on any poll of best cRPGs ever. It's never cited as a masterpiece. It's supposed failings are self-evident and are the same points raised by everyone who doesn't like it. But to steadfastly refuse to understand why it's popular enough to get a strong placement, to be incapable of understanding how neatly IWD fulfils a very specific cRPG itch is just plane bone headed.

Oh, I am not saying that IWD shouldn't be on the Top 50 list at all. I just think it ranks too high. It is interesting to look at the most popular combatfag games on the above list. As of this time, we have:

Underrail 35 (29.4%)
IWD 34 (28.6%)
Jagged Alliance 2 34 (28.6%)
Temple of Elemental Evil 29 (24.4%)

I am ashamed to not have played ToEE (I was having savegame errors when I tried), so I 'll comment on the rest. I don't think IWD is of the same calibre as Underrail or JA2.

(Btw, I think we need a Codex Top Combatfag list)

Bladur's Gate games were combatfag games...

 

[Trashos]

Bladur's Gate games were combatfag games...

You know that I love SoA's combat. What I meant above is games that exist for the combat. The BGs are full packages, they could have existed without paying too much attention on the combat side of things (even if they would have been much inferior that way). IWD, Underrail, JA2 wouldn't have existed without their heavy focus on combat, that's what they are selling.

 

[Dzupakazul]

To echo that, most of the comments I see on typical outlets like geeky Polish (emphasis here - many Poles likely grew up with this game) social media pages, where commentators are people who played Baldur's Gate way back when, but aren't hanging out closely with the BG community, tend to note Baldur's Gate's companions, memorable quotes, the ultimately very subjective notion of "atmosphere", often don't care for the mods or the tactical sphere of the fights, and sometimes have some questionable notions about what is overpowered or optimal. Baldur's Gate is generally accessible; these same people wouldn't care for ToEE or IWD, the "true" combatfag games.

Recently I saw a small tidbit from one such Facebook page, where the blogger mentioned that the game (Icewind Dale) is silly and naive, but ultimately satisfying due to the combat; some of the 'juicier' comments and exchanges underneath went like this:
"IWD is a pretty bad BioWare game [sic!], it has no story, no companions, just gets really boring halfway through, I couldn't finish it."
"IWD isn't even an RPG, there's no roleplaying in putting a pip into Long Swords."
"IWD was basically the BioWare [sic!] response to Diablo."
"Both BG and IWD pale before P:T, which was true roleplaying."

tl;dr: People who don't dwell closely within cRPG communities and mostly go off their memories tend to view BG as a rich game full of excitement, story, exploration and cool characters. IWD is considered a Diablo clone. There's a certain snobbish aura going on around P:T, where some people consider it to be a spiritual experience.

I remember a while back there was a cringeworthy article about the superiority of Fallout 2 and Planescape: Torment on an old Polish fanzine, and the top tier arguments were that Fallout is better because it has better fansites or that Fallout is a more mature RPG because it doesn't take place in a naive magical fairy land with dragons, whereas Planescape: Torment is not a game, it's an experience that only true humanists can understand, and people who prefer Fallout prefer number-crunching and shooting loud guns to actually harmonizing with the human nature. Someone actually believed that Fallout 2 was a combatfag game, and my 10 year old self resonated because I played a 5 IN Small Guns / Big Guns / Energy Weapons character and I had a poor grasp on the English language.

 

[Micormic]

edit- Looking again in 2014 Dragon age origins was good enough to be considered top 50, yeah it's safe to say this place by 2014 has declined to near gamespot levels.

DAO is about where it belongs. Good enough to be in the Top50, but not awesome enough to be higher than its position.

One is bound to have disagreements with a list (and I haven't played Morrowind), eg for the life of me I don't get what people see in IWD. But generally the Codex produces the only worthy RPG lists that I 've seen and the one here is not bad either. Btw, the top 50/70 list saved my life when I was getting into RPGs, because everyone else was recommending Skyrims and Mass Effects.

Well I consider DAO a game only degenerates and imbeciles could enjoy. Among other games on the list but that one stands out as one of the worst on there.

Firstly Trashos , I can understand why you personally might not like IWD. IWD has never been no.1 on any poll of best cRPGs ever. It's never cited as a masterpiece. It's supposed failings are self-evident and are the same points raised by everyone who doesn't like it. But to steadfastly refuse to understand why it's popular enough to get a strong placement, to be incapable of understanding how neatly IWD fulfils a very specific cRPG itch is just plane bone headed.

Secondly Micormic , when I did my polls last year I didn't even include DA:O in the cRPG vote, because the game was designed from the ground up as a simultaneous console release, that's why it's general mechanics are so weak and why it feels considerably uninspired by comparison to previous Bioware D&D fare. Also, a bit like Pillars of Eternity, this was Bioware trying to invent their own copy-paste D&D, so it also had that sheen of pound-shop fake. But, again, the issues with DA:O are the same issues that everyone knows and accepts, but to steadfastly refuse to understand why it was popular enough to get a placement, to be incapable of understanding how neatly DA:O fulfils a very specific RPG itch is just plain bone headed.

With both these games, what one can say should be obvious in both examples, is that they are undisputedly RPGs, something that cannot be said for a vast number of games on the lists. You could argue that, in hindsight, and with deep anal analysis, they could be construed as not perfect examples of RPGs, you could pick nitpicks, but there's no other gaming categories that these games even come close to as much as they do to RPG.

& so while I can fully understand someone disliking either of these games, finding flaws, finding stuff to, rightly, criticise, I honestly can't understand how someone who claims to find RPGs to be their favourite genre of game can not be comfortable either playing these games nor understanding why they might have a lot of fandom in the RPG sphere. It would be like trying to claim you don't understand why Cornflakes sells so well when people could buy Frosties or Crunchy Nut Cornflakes instead.

I don't have as strict of a definition of rpg's as some people here argue about. I consider the Diablo games to be rpg's even though they're bad ones IMO. My disdain for DAO and every bioware game since BG2 has more to do with their completely idiotic writing, and a complete lack of any thought going into encounter design in any of their games.

I've never made any argument that the IWD games aren't rpg's, I consider them RPG's alright. Just mediocre ones for my personal tastes given I'm not a fan of pure dungeon crawlers. That being said IWD 1 is miles and miles ahead of DAO for me to the point where it's not even close. The writing in the IWD games never made me question the state of humanity and modern society, DAO did just that.




When I skimmed the list for games I hated I didn't even look for either IWD games on the top 50. It didn't even cross my mind to look for them. I consider them boring but neither of them insult my intelligence in the way KOTOR or AP or DAO do.

 

[mushaden]

I'm surprised D:OS is doing so badly compared to AOD and even Underrail. Both D:OS an D:OS2 were GOTY, so what happened?

I didn't vote for D:OS or Shadowrun Dragonfall despite enjoying both of them. They're just... not that great. I think when they're next to the true classics like in this poll many others feel the same way.


Can we get another look at the games ordered by votes today? Only if it's easy to do for you as the poll creator...

 

[Jason Liang]

In other news, 1 out of 4 Codexers don't consider Fallout1 to be one of the 25 greatest cRPGs of all time.

There are less than 25 great rpgs. And even less when you don't count JA2 and SC2 as rpgs.

 

[Lady_Error]

Can we get another look at the games ordered by votes today? Only if it's easy to do for you as the poll creator...

I'll do another one when more votes come in - found a way in excel to convert it relatively quickly.

 

[Black_Willow]

Good to see that the top position among age of "incline" games isn't even an RPG.

Age of Decadence is not an RPG?

Nope, it's mostly a CYOA game/video novel with stats.

 

[Bocian]

Nope, it's mostly a CYOA game/video novel with stats.

 

[Vlajdermen]

I see ELEX has more votes than nier:filthomata. Good.

And as to what's the best RPG of all time, it's Gothic 2. It's the second best game of all time if you want my opinion.