Interview RPG Dot chats with DW Bradley

[DemonKing]

I liked this bit from the interview:

Dungeon Lords may mark the return of classic dungeon levels replete with puzzles and lots of hidden rooms. “Some dungeons may have 30-50 hidden chests…and you may only find 15. Some of them are diabolical”.

OOooooHHHH!

Hidden chests!

Diabolical!

Great - a treasure hunt. Who said CRPGing is dead?

 

[the_dagon]

about skill check & dialog

Hi all,

one of my worst dialog experience on a cRPG was... Planescape Torment.

a guy asked my a good riddle (I love good riddles in crpgs), and after a bit of thinking I found the answer.
when I wanted to put in the answer, I had only two choices :
- I don't know
- Goodbye
How frustrating was it !
As I restarted the game with a more intelligent character (choosing to increase int.), the riddle answer was simply written, so I just had to click on it : ALSO frustrating.

so what's the point having skills to determine the dialog options if it becomes so frustrating ?

Ultima 7 didn't use skills to determine dialog options, and its' dialogs were AWESOME.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Ever heard about role-playing?

 

[Volourn]

"If you're not going to bother to take anything I say seriously, specially replies, then please indicate this from the get go, as I have more important things to waste my time on. Seriously. I don't expect you to agree with me, but if the r00fles haven't clogged your brain fully, then please have the courtesy of not wasting my time by jsut spouting nonsensical one liners whenever you don't feel like backing up your claims or continuing the discussion. Its already hard enough to try and be active here and in other forums when I'm getting less time to do so by the week; I don't need it to be wasted even more by you."

I already did. I posted what I thoguht of issue in two posts. youd siagreed. i could, hence, repeat what I already said, or say I disagree.

If you don't like my replies then don't rpely to me or at least reply intelligently and not repetively or else you will get a udner handed and nons eriosu response.

Gothic 2 is a role-playing game. Thoguh I feel dialogue skills would enhance it; you very much can play a role where you chocies do matter. That is role-laying. I'd take Gothic 2's role-playing over MW's any day of the week. Or, for that matter, PST's.

Next.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I already did. I posted what I thoguht of issue in two posts. youd siagreed. i could, hence, repeat what I already said, or say I disagree.

Nice backpedalling, but you can't claim that you just disagree with me, then proceed to say I'm wrong. Either you disagree and go away, or claim I'm wrong and prove it - not both.

If you don't like my replies then don't rpely to me or at least reply intelligently and not repetively or else you will get a udner handed and nons eriosu response.

Wait, you're asking me to post intelligent replies when you barely can come up with arguments against what I post? Sorry but "you're wrong" doesn't work in the real world. Either you expose your idea consistently or you don't - posting the rethorical equivalent of "LA LA LA I'm not listening to you!" doesn't prove your argument in the least. But here, something intelligent just for you: R00fles!.

I'm done with this trash.

 

[Avin]

"one of my worst dialog experience on a cRPG was... Planescape Torment"

what? what? what?

"You are wrong, deal with it".

 

[Volourn]

"I'm wrong and prove it - not both"

I alreayd proved it. Role-playing is about playing your character and being able to make meaningful choices that matter. Gothic 2 accomplishes this hence it *is* a RPG whetehr you like it or not. Dialogue skills per seis just an extra. D&D was a pretty done good RPG system way before it introduced any sort of 'rule" for dialogue skills.

Next.


"I'm done with this trash."

Take your ball, go home, and cry to mummy then. I'll shed a tear for you.. or not.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Ever heard about role-playing?

Words to live by, Dagon. Think about it. YOU may have been intelligent enough to figure out that riddle, but not your character. You are roleplaying a character that is NOT you. In a pen and paper game, the GM would have had you make an intelligence check against the riddle to see if you can figure it out, especially if your character was of low intelligence. Now, if your character was of high intelligence and you, the player, managed to figure the riddle out on your own, then the GM should allow for that. It's good roleplaying and adds to the fun.

 

[almondblight]

Words to live by, Dagon. Think about it. YOU may have been intelligent enough to figure out that riddle, but not your character. You are roleplaying a character that is NOT you. In a pen and paper game, the GM would have had you make an intelligence check against the riddle to see if you can figure it out, especially if your character was of low intelligence. Now, if your character was of high intelligence and you, the player, managed to figure the riddle out on your own, then the GM should allow for that. It's good roleplaying and adds to the fun.

I agree with this, to an extent. However, the problem with most conversation stat checks in games is that they take the "playing" out of roleplaying. I've seen how much people have been clamoring for choice, but often stat checks are a replacement for choices. If you are of a high enough intelligence to get the right answer, that's the one you pick because that's the one with the best outcome. This often means that roleplaying comes down to picking what level of intelligence will dictate a characters choices throughout the game, you pick it, then are set on a dialogue track. Yet you still have to make the choices. It's not like if you are intelligent and pick "I don't know" in the Planescape example you can play dumb and extract information. Often there's no reason, if you are intelligent enough, to not pick the "right" answer.

Because I find conversations in games to be poorly designed in general, not having stat checks doesn't bother me all too much.

 

[Dhruin]

I'm late to all the fun. It sucks that dialogue stat checks are are out of favour with developers, partly to appease the mass market -- although some of them genuinely believe that the development time in scripting enough responses with stat checks would be better spent developing overall more dialogue responses with forks that every character will see, hence more choices (their thoughts - not mine!). I have spoken to several developers who see it this way (probably including DWB, I guess - I didn't have the time to expand on this). Get used to it -- it's the way it's going IMO.

Anyway, I loved Gothic and had fun with things like Blade of Darkness. I doubt DL will have the atmosphere of Gothic but if the combat is better (who knows?), it might be great fun as an action RPG. Looks like there's quite a bit to character development (combat related), so if the world is interesting and open, I think I'll still enjoy it.

 

[Whipporowill]

I guess you don't know anything about it actually making it out in 2004, Dhruin?

 

[Volourn]

"It sucks that dialogue stat checks are are out of favour with developers, partly to appease the mass market"

Interetsing comment. Bioware is rumoured to cater the mass market but they don't seem to shy away from dialogue skills. Even their so called action RPG Jade Empire has dialogue skillz. In fact, they have 3 of 'em.

WOWSERS! BIO *is* hard core.

 

[Whipporowill]

In comparison, yes.

 

[the_dagon]

more on dialogs

This often means that roleplaying comes down to picking what level of intelligence will dictate a characters choices throughout the game, you pick it, then are set on a dialogue track. Yet you still have to make the choices. It's not like if you are intelligent and pick "I don't know" in the Planescape example you can play dumb and extract information. Often there's no reason, if you are intelligent enough, to not pick the "right" answer.

exactly.

two remarks:
- we're talking about computer games, so should developers forget gameplay to choose roleplaying at all costs ? I don't think so. The fact that they choose mass market and not roleplaying is another problem

- when playing a pen&paper game, a friend playing a genius mage took a really stupid decision which caused his own death. I was DMing. Should I made him roll an intelligence check and tell him his character is too intelligent to do such a stupid thing ? (funny, that was admitting he's not very bright) ?? As his character was dead he told me that. I don't agree.

...to be discussed

still no word about Ultima 7 & dialogs ?

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

He made a bad decision and, as GM, you made a judgement call on that. No problem there. Especially if he made that bad decision "in character". That's all about roleplay.

I'm not saying everything should come down to a toss of the dice. Hell no. What I -am- saying though, is that low intelligence character could just so happen to know this one particular thing even if his player doesn't. At that point it's the GM's discretion as for what to do. Maybe have the player do a skill check at a high difficulty, or not let him have it, deeming the character too stupid, even if the player knows the solution. It really boils down to what kind of history was worked up for the character.

One thing I've seen that alot of nowadays gamers just dont get is this:

You're playing someone that's not you and if you can't "be" that character, then what's the fun? There will be plenty of times that you will know stuff your character doesn't. Take advantage of that and any decent GM will punish you for it.

Therefore, skill checks exist to help the GM keep his players in check. As far as using them in CRPGs though, it's a whole different reason. If you've put alot of points into diplomacy, then you should get more dialogue options, OR, have dialogue options that are best for the situation at hand be highlighted for you since you have high diplomacy and would know the right thing to say. Like the Empathy trait in the Fallout games, but instead of being constant, everytime a new screen of dialogue choices came up, it would roll against your diplomacy skill, compare it to previous successes in the current dialogue tree, and give you the appropriate results.

If you fumbled, well then a bad choice will be highlighted instead of a good choice, or even better, nothing but bad choices will be available just to show how badly you fumbled. Even the most silver tongued person can slip up now and then.

Maybe I am wishing for too much, but that's the way I would want to play. Not the way THEY want me to play. I'll give DL a chance. Nothing wrong with a good action/rpg. I just think what he said in that interview was pretty bunk shit and an insult to the CRPG player in general. That dumbed down shit is for consoles, not computers. Kthx.

 

[Dhruin]

"It sucks that dialogue stat checks are are out of favour with developers, partly to appease the mass market"

Interetsing comment. Bioware is rumoured to cater the mass market but they don't seem to shy away from dialogue skills. Even their so called action RPG Jade Empire has dialogue skillz. In fact, they have 3 of 'em.

WOWSERS! BIO *is* hard core.

The truth is: yes - Bio did some good things with KotOR (never got around to playing HotU). I didn't like the combat and they couldn't fully commit to the evil path bla bla... but they did try to offer some dialogue skills and multiple solutions.

 

[the_dagon]

watch out...

If you've put alot of points into diplomacy, then you should get more dialogue options, OR, have dialogue options that are best for the situation at hand be highlighted for you since you have high diplomacy and would know the right thing to say.

ok but watch out... if developers read you, they just could think like this :

- his character has high intelligence, so the player couldn't be wrong, so his only choice is the correct answer... that would be easier for them

don't underestimate their lazyness...

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

"I'm wrong and prove it - not both"

I alreayd proved it. Role-playing is about playing your character and being able to make meaningful choices that matter.

LOL. That is news? You just proved my point, or rather, that you didn't pay attention to what I said at all. I'm not gonna bother quoting all that again, but anyone barely sentient will notice that I didn't disagree with your proposed definition, but instead disagreed on the matter of there being merit to using mechanics which determine what your character can and can't do, in this specific case, for dialogue. It's right there, and you keep fudging it up and fighting invisible windmills. It takes skill to be this daft, I have to applaud you there.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Interetsing comment. Bioware is rumoured to cater the mass market but they don't seem to shy away from dialogue skills. Even their so called action RPG Jade Empire has dialogue skillz. In fact, they have 3 of 'em.

The irony is that BioWare actually started developers down that road with BG and BG2.

 

[Volourn]

" but instead disagreed on the matter of there being merit to using mechanics which determine what your character can and can't do,"

Only one who is daft her eis you. In my very first post in this thread, i amd eit quite clear my preferred method is have dialogue skills. however, others were arguing that without dialogue skills it is no longer a role-playing game. i disagreed with them. My defintion which you seem to agree with quite clearly illustrates that Gothic 2 is a RPG. Deal with it.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

My defintion which you seem to agree with quite clearly illustrates that Gothic 2 is a RPG. Deal with it.

Too bad for you I didn't questioned neither your position on roleplaying neither on Gothic 2 being an RPG. Ooopsie! Care to waffle some more? Or are you going to read back and finally manage to understand what I was talking about.

 

[Volourn]

"Gothic 2 being an RPG."

Bull. I said Gothic 2 was a an RPG despite its lack of a dialogue skill. Some bonehead disagreed, and said it was actually an adventure game. You basically agreed. So, what is it? Is Gothic 2 a RPG or an adevnture game? Do you need actual dialogue skills for a game to be a RPG or not? Make your choice, and stop "waffling". Until then, I'll be laughingling.

 

[Shevek]

"Gothic 2 being an RPG."

Bull. I said Gothic 2 was a an RPG despite its lack of a dialogue skill. Some bonehead disagreed, and said it was actually an adventure game. You basically agreed. So, what is it? Is Gothic 2 a RPG or an adevnture game? Do you need actual dialogue skills for a game to be a RPG or not? Make your choice, and stop "waffling". Until then, I'll be laughingling.

Way not to read peoples posts or to read into them what makes your point "work." As I recall, no one said this. Are you just trying to troll? Again, I feel that if dialogue is not checked by a stat or skill, then it exists outside the rpg system in that given game and is essentially an adventure element. This is not to say that the game is a pure adventure game (as other aspects like combat/tradeskills/whatever - this is why some games are called Action RPGs, others are Strat Games with RPG Elements, etc - it all the depends on the strength and breadth of the RPG system) may exist within with the rpg system. I just dont think choices in dialogue which are not part of character development are great roleplaying since choices in dialog exist in other genres where character development is not prevalent. It is for this reason that I think the roleplaying in various titles (such as the BG series) could be better (since it very rarely reflects any stats, much less skills, the player character may have in the dialogue). Volourn, stop wasting my time and please keep a tight lip on those personal insults.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

What Shevek said. Wonder if it'll matter anything, though. I honestly doubt it.

 

[Volourn]

"Volourn, stop wasting my time and please keep a tight lip on those personal insults."

I'm not. You are. Youa re the troll. You guys said if a game doens't have dialogue skillz it's not really a RPG. Youa re wrong. Deal with it.

As for personal insults. You do your fair share so stop crying about it.