RPGs cannot have action-based movement or combat, Fallout: New Vegas is not an RPG

[damager]

Possibly retarded tag when?

 

[HeatEXTEND]

It isn't closer to any of those. That's a pretty weird question.

That's because I'm pushing the argument ("fps dodge/kill gameplay", thus closer to Doom) but you are obviously not willing to engage .

 

[Prime Junta]

Lacrymas loves attention. We love attention whores. Match made in ... uh, well, some Outer Plane anyway.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

et's take another example - Gothic and F:NV, Gothic doesn't have an "extensive enough" character system or skill checks of any kind, so why are you considering Gothic as an RPG when F:NV is also one because of its character development and skill checks? Seems arbitrary, like everything else in their defense.

Who says it doesn’t have extensive enough character development? Skill checks are one example of your build controlling how the PC interacts with the world, turn based combat is another example—they might be the most refined examples, but they are not the only examples.

As you yourself have pointed out, the skills you decide to train in the Gothic series have an extraordinary impact on what your PC can do. Learning stealth lets you sneak, learning pickpocket lets you pickpocket; if you don’t put points into either, you can’t do either. You know exactly how skill point allocation changes the combat: it’s fucking dramatic. Your PC moves differently depending on your build: without acrobatics you move like a spaz, with acrobatics you can somersault all over the place or fall from a lowish height and rather than dying you’ll do a flip. Joining a faction in Gothic is very much a build decision, as is joining a class, and there is plenty of faction and build related reactivity.

But you’ve played Gothic 2 and you used to believe this stuff mattered to its RPGness, so rather than asking this kind of question I urge you to think about how you yourself would have answered it before you decided to become a menu mediated purist. That ought to let you anticipate pretty much all of the counter arguments here. This is what I find so baffling. Two years ago, did you consider Gothic 2 an ARPG just because you liked it and thought it belonged in your favorite genre? I doubt you were that stupid. This is why I can’t tell if you’re being mendacious or you just have a not so hot memory.

Anyway, you could change my definition to exclude ARPGs by swapping one word: replacing “including combat” with “especially in combat.” There really is no reason to bring the UI into it; it weakens your case because it sounds silly and it’s not even necessary to create the genre exclusivity you’re aiming for.

Bloodlines and New Vegas are more talking simulators than shooters. You spend more time in conversation than in combat. I would therefore argue that a big part of the core gameplay is still menu mediated; what is a dialogue tree if not a menu? And, as many others have pointed out, New Vegas is kind of a special case because it does have optional menu mediated combat with VATS. By your own definition it’s designed to be played as an RPG or a shooter. If that’s not a genre hybrid, I don’t know what is. The difference is that a definition relying solely on menu mediated combat (and character building/progression, but that’s so ubiquitous across genres now that it almost goes without saying) means that Fallout 4 is also an RPG if you play using VATS (hint: it’s not). I know you’ve said VATS doesn’t count, but your argument there was very unconvincing.

Now, how do you know when character options are enough to call something an RPG? You draw an arbitrary line in the sand, like with any other genre definition. Just as you’ve drawn a line between TB, RTwP, and top down real time combat on one side and 1st or 3rd person over-the-shoulder real time combat on the other. One could just as easily draw that line between TB and RTwP, or between RTwP and Diablo style real time action combat from an isometric view. I don’t think anyone would be giving you a hard time here if you would acknowledge that your definition is just as arbitrary as everyone else’s.

Let me put it another way: if someone said there’s no such thing as bisexuals (ARPGs), just gay people with one foot still in the closet (shooters with narrative elements that we like), you would probably laugh in their face, or scoff, and with good reason.

 

[Jason Liang]

CURRENTLY Work in Progress

Sigh.

Strategy Game

Battle Chess

Arcade Action

Gauntlet

- real time combat
- single gameplay UI
- 3rd person overhead, 2D environment
- non-online multiplayer gameplay supported
- linear game progression (game levels)
- no permanent character progression
- no money system
- joystick controls
+ collect items
+ tracks health
+ four different player characters with different abilities
+ basic story
+ basic setting

Flight Simulator

Dragonstrike

Adventure

Loom

- primitive infrequent preset combat
- single gameplay UI
- 3rd person pseudo 3D environment
- no defined health system
- single player character only
- equipment based permanent character progression
+ keyboard and mouse controls
+ open world exploration
+ collect items
+ developed story
+ developed setting
+ npcs with limited interaction

(War) Strategy Game AKA Map Porn

Castles II: Siege and Conquest

Tactical Battle Game

Fantasy General

Squad Tactics Game

X-Com: UFO Defense

Action Adventure

The Legend of Zelda

- real time combat
- single gameplay UI + inventory menu
- 3rd person overhead, 2D/ pseudo-3D environment
- gamepad controls
- single player character only
- equipment based permanent character progression
+ single player gameplay only
+ open world exploration
+ collect items
+ tracks health
+ simple money system
+ basic story
+ basic setting
+ npcs with limited interaction

Dungeon Crawl RPG AKA Blobber

Wizardry I

- 1st person 2D environment
- limited linear exploration and game progression (can backtrack through previous dungeon levels)
+ turn-based combat
+ no movement in combat
+ single player gameplay only
+ keyboard controls
+ town menu + exploration gameplay UI + combat gameplay UI + character menu
+ open world exploration
+ random combat
+ collect items
+ tracks health
+ experience based character progression
+ advanced character attribute system (6 primary stats)
+ developed magic system
+ simple money system
+ basic story
+ basic setting
+ npcs with basic interaction (improves with Wizardry IV, V, VI and VII)

Strategy RPG AKA Goldbox

Pool of Radiance

Japanese RPG AKA JRPG

Phantasy Star IV

Tactical RPG

Final Fantasy Tactics

Action RPG

Diablo

MMO RPG

World of Warcraft

Arcade Shooter/ Adventure/ Strategy Hybrid

Star Control II

Strategy/ Squad-based Tactics/ Adventure Hybrid

Jagged Alliance 2

Arcade/ RPG Hybrid

Dungeons and Dragons: Shadows of Mystara

Action Adventure/ RPG Hybrid

Zelda II: The Adventures of Link

- real time combat
- 3rd person overhead + side scrolling, 2D environment
- gamepad controls
- single player character only
- equipment based permanent character progression
- no money system
+ single player gameplay only
+ exploration gameplay UI + combat gameplay UI + spell menu
+ open world exploration
+ random combat
+ collect items
+ tracks health
+ experience based character progression
+ control multiple player characters
+ create your own player characters
+ multiple player character classes
+ simple character attribute system (3 stats - life, magic and attack)
+ simple magic system
+ basic story
+ basic setting
+ npcs with limited interaction


Strategy/ Squad-based Tactics / RPG Hybrid

Heroes of Might and Magic III

 

[Lacrymas]

You seem to be misunderstanding the whole discussion Kit Walker, nobody is religiously devoted to RPGs and nobody thinks they deserve special status among other genres. It's a debate of what constitutes an RPG, not whether we should "protect" it or venerate it.

 

[Bladeract]

Lacrymas and a lot of people here, you seem to think that RPGs are some kind of a religious object. There is nothing sacred about them or special; they are like all other games and they mostly don't even differ in gameplay from other games. There was a time when games i.e. board games/kid's games existed and RPGs did not. RPGs came into being for a particular autist class of people called Nerds who wanted more control over their characters than playing wargames with fixed characters. Read my signature to understand how terrible that is.

Why do you think that RPGs deserve special status within games is beyond me when they simply encroach on other genres (and there is nothing wrong with that) and culturally appropriate their lifestyles? They are the racist white dudes of the gaming world.

Now, I understand that you like to see your imagination come to life on paper in PnP or in the video game you play to while the time away. But, worshipping RPGs is a bit silly. Get over it.

Lacrymas
it is quite clear you are very invested in the debate of the form: if explosive diarrhoea is still shit or not. The answer to that is, yes it is shit. It is just not the best shit that you can have, but sometimes when you have constipation this is what you get.

I leave solving the analogy to you and other RPG philosophers.

Guys I like popamole shit games with cutscenes, so instead of killing myself I have to pretend they are some kind of cool "RPG Gaem". You can tell because there's swords and shit so liking/watching them makes me cool instead of a typical console loving faggot who plays call of doody. Anyone who say it not RPG Gaem just because it "plays" exactly like super mario with swords is a big meany autist person.

 

[Jacob]

blobber/ eroge hybrid.

This triggers my weeaboo autism. Come on, the term eroge was about the sexual content of the game, not any gameplay mechanics.

 

[Brancaleone]

- snip -

Tactical Battle Game

- snip -

Fuck you, the last thing I needed right now was having to reinstall Fantasy General for the umpteenth time.

 

[Jason Liang]

This triggers my weeaboo autism. Come on, the term eroge was about the sexual content of the game, not any gameplay mechanics.

By Eroge I mean the Adult Sexy Visual Novel "gameplay" of most of the Rance games.

 

[Reapa]

Where do these people come from? DnD PnP isn't a RPG because you only control one character.

i thought it was obvious we weren't talking about pnp here, but about the single player simulation of pnp.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Lacrymas
it is quite clear you are very invested in the debate of the form: if explosive diarrhoea is still shit or not. The answer to that is, yes it is shit. It is just not the best shit that you can have, but sometimes when you have constipation this is what you get.

I leave solving the analogy to you and other RPG philosophers.

No, Lacrymas is right on this particular issue: it’s a debate over terminology. Whatever your definition, there will be plenty of shitty RPGs and shitty hybrids. e.g. I say something like Fable is an action RPG, Lacrymas says it’s just an action game. Either way, it’s still terrible. And whether Gothic is an action RPG or an action game, it’s still great. There’s nothing inherently elevating about the CRPG label.

At the end of the day, this may not be a very profound or important debate, but if you want profound and important discussions I humbly submit that you are in the wrong place.

 

[unfairlight]

Possibly retarded tag when?

We cannot dilute the value of the Possibly Retarded tag, and as such I believe that the best outcome would be to give mine to Lacrymas
Please make it happen, JarlFrank Infinitron

 

[HeatEXTEND]

I don't think I misunderstand.

You argue googling something is an RPG, you probably misunderstood.

We cannot dilute the value of the Possibly Retarded tag, and as such I believe that the best outcome would be to give mine to Lacrymas

Might wanna throw Mr.Walker a bone there.

 

[Sigourn]

Guys I like popamole shit games with cutscenes, so instead of killing myself I have to pretend they are some kind of cool "RPG Gaem". You can tell because there's swords and shit so liking/watching them makes me cool instead of a typical console loving faggot who plays call of doody. Anyone who say it not RPG Gaem just because it "plays" exactly like super mario with swords is a big meany autist person.

That you don't see the irony in your own post is hilarious. You said it yourself:

liking/watching them makes me cool

So you like/watch RPGs because you think it makes you cool. But in reality you are just an

autist person.

who is against others liking RPGs because you don't want them hanging around with the big kids like you.

 

[aweigh]

There’s nothing inherently elevating about the CRPG label.

On this point I must disagree: withholding or application of said label is one of the most efficient ways to elevate butt-hurt in any given forum thread.

^_^

 

[Mr. Hiver]

The spectrum of RPGs had grown vast and wide.

At the center true RPGs reside while at the opposite extremes are action games on one side and the CYOA games on the other.

New Vegas falls into an action RPG section of the spectrum, due to its combat mechanics and increased importance and influence of player skills, but an RPG because a lot of content is limited through various character abilities such as skills, perks and speech skill.
Its closer to the true center then many other action RPGs, but still falls into that range.

 

[existential_vacuum]

Is this thread about Lacrymas going half-retard or full-retard? Stay tuned and find out on page 50 along with other pressing questions such as:
"What is an Action-RPG?"
"Why you can't call PoE paladin a paladin?"
"Who killed JFK?"
"Are Master Planetar and Infinitron alts of DarkUnderlord?"

 

[Risewild]

Too many pages for me to read them all in the short time I have at the moment. So I don't know if anyone already mentioned these things, but:

It's a shooter because you directly control the shooting, it definitely doesn't matter that gun skill influences that, otherwise Deus Ex is also an RPG. Diablo and clones are more hack and slashers than RPGs, though, they are just "more RPG" than New Vegas.

You only directly control the shooting if you want. If you use V.A.T.S. the shooting is totally dependent of your character Skills and Attributes. There is no direct control by the player when using the V.A.T.S. system. Even how many shots/hits you can do in V.A.T.S. depends on the character Agility stat.

Fallout New Vegas is one of the few games that is a true hybrid between Shooter and RPG. You can play the game as a shooter or as a RPG. It is dependent on you as the player (most players play it as a mix of both, to be honest).

But a little note, even if you play the game as a shooter (going around, attacking in real time and controlling the character's aim), the combat is still dependent on the character's skills and attributes: You need a specific Strength value to be able to properly use weapons, if you don't, your weapon will sway more and make aiming harder and VATS accuracy is also lower (for ranged weapons), while you also attack slower (for melee/unarmed weapons). The accuracy and damage your character does (both on real time and V.A.T.S.) with any attack is also dependent on the "combat skill" for that weapon (Unarmed, Melee, Guns, Explosives, Energy Weapons). How much skill points your character has in Unarmed and Melee skills will dictate if you can use (and which, since some weapons have several different special attacks) special attacks on V.A.T.S. and real time combat.

So even if you play the game as a shooter, the character skills and attributes are still deeply used by the game, helping and/or hindering the real time combat.

 

[Klarion]

There isn't any sort of even nearly clear definition of what RPG is. It's the most ambiguous video game genre and almost anything can fall into RPG category.

Give me a role(or a few roles, can even be up to dozen of them), put in some dialogue, few stats and bam, you got yourself an RPG. Thats how the majority here thinks, unfortunately.


What's an RPG? It all comes from PnP and thats what we have to stick to then. We can't say that dressing up and pretending you're a knight or something is RPG, right? So how can we call New Vegas or Diablo an RPG? Can't.

If it was up to me, the current RPG genre would be split into into two following categories:
CRPG - which would have to adhere to some core principles of PnP like turn-based combat, random number generation for success of certain action etc.
VGTIRP(Video Game That Includes Role Playing) - everything else

 

[Parabalus]

If it was up to me, the current RPG genre would be split into into two following categories:
CRPG - which would have to adhere to some core principles of PnP like turn-based combat, random number generation for of certain action etc.

So IE games, Kotors, NWN1&2 etc. aren't RPGs, or are aRPGs, since they don't have 'proper' turn based combat, but the closest thing there is (phase based)?

Imposing this criteria would cull more than half of the Codex top RPGs list.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

If the game doesn't have stat checks then it isn't a CRPG.
hope that helps, friends.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

What the hell are you talking about you moron?

Never mind, fused you with another retard, my bad.

 

[Klarion]

So IE games, Kotors, NWN1&2 etc. aren't RPGs, or are aRPGs, since they don't have 'proper' turn based combat, but the closest thing there is (phase based)?

They wouldn't fall into my CRPG category. I think current RPG genre is too wide.

Imposing this criteria would cull more than half of the Codex top RPGs list.

If you look at Codex top RPG list, the range of games that can be found in there is staggering... When I say words like FPS, racing game, RTS etc. you know exactly what you're gonna get. With RPG though, it can go from some simple roguelike to something like Fallout 3 to NWN to new Battletech... What do all these games have in common? What do they have in common so that someone could easily put them in same category?

Dialogue? Stats? What?

 

[Jason Liang]

Battletech is not a rpg.