Savegame limitations?

[otsego]

Games are about having fun

then use cheat engine
this same exact argument can be used to include any stupid shit in a game that someone happens to find "fun"

This is totally incorrect. The game establishes the rules and boundaries and the player has fun working within those boundaries. Using a cheat engine goes outside of those boundaries, which of course is also fun otherwise the cheats wouldn't exist, but is an extra once you've had time with the boundaries already established.

Who wants to start off any game with the ability to fly across mountains and kill enemies with a single blow? No one. Until they've already played it 'normally' several times over.

 

[Peachcurl]

Magic makes things too easy in games. Remove magic. Magic is cheating.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Games are about having fun

then use cheat engine
this same exact argument can be used to include any stupid shit in a game that someone happens to find "fun"

This is totally incorrect. The game establishes the rules and boundaries and the player has fun working within those boundaries. Using a cheat engine goes outside of those boundaries, which of course is also fun otherwise the cheats wouldn't exist, but is an extra once you've had time with the boundaries already established.

Who wants to start off any game with the ability to fly across mountains and kill enemies with a single blow? No one. Until they've already played it 'normally' several times over.

So you're saying that saving is indeed part of the game's rules and therefore games are balanced around the idea that players will savescum?
Thanks.

 

[otsego]

So you're saying that saving is indeed part of the game's rules and therefore games are balanced around the idea that players will savescum?
Thanks.

Yes and no. I understand the argument of 'well if you always want the best outcome why not just put on a cheat that guarantees it', but sometimes you don't always want that outcome and the (save) system lets you choose it, which allows for some variation within the boundaries of the game as you want to play it. I don't see that as inherently bad, though I'd still argue games that are so random that they actively encourage save-scumming have some design issues.

Rogue-likes aside.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

So you're saying that saving is indeed part of the game's rules and therefore games are balanced around the idea that players will savescum?
Thanks.

Yes and no. I understand the argument of 'well if you always want the best outcome why not just put on a cheat that guarantees it', but sometimes you don't always want that outcome and the (save) system lets you choose it, which allows for some variation within the boundaries of the game as you want to play it. I don't see that as inherently bad, though I'd still argue games that are so random that they actively encourage save-scumming have some design issues.

Rogue-likes aside.

Games never design routes other than success ones because they know cheaters(AKA casuals/codexers) will just savescum everytime they fail.

 

[otsego]

Games never design routes other than success ones because they know cheaters(AKA casuals/codexers) will just savescum everytime they fail.

Agreed that designers don't plan for routes of failure (for the most part). Disagree that savescumming is the reason for this design. If that was true then there would be no failure at all. Problem is even if they give an option of failure, there is no interesting outcome other than you lose something. Which also isn't inherently bad. But a casual does not like failing to get the cookie at the end of the trail.

 

[fantadomat]

Games are about having fun

then use cheat engine
this same exact argument can be used to include any stupid shit in a game that someone happens to find "fun"

Then don't use saves.

 

[BING XI LAO]

Potentially interesting topic that deserves better than rusty's one-liners.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

You know what would be interesting? Allowing the computer opponents to savescum.

Imagine an RPG where part of the fun is not killing the enemies ('cause they'll savescum), but crushing their will to fight (i.e. making them ragequit instead).

 

[Gargaune]

You know what would be interesting? Allowing the computer opponents to savescum.

Been done.

 

[BING XI LAO]

You know what would be interesting? Allowing the computer opponents to savescum.

Imagine an RPG where part of the fun is not killing the enemies ('cause they'll savescum), but crushing their will to fight (i.e. making them ragequit instead).

 

[Can't handle the bacon]

• 'Bad' outcomes should have some upside.
• 'Good' outcomes should have some downside.
• Some downsides / upsides should be revealed much later on.

Ah, yes, let's turn every choice into a Russian roulette that results in things that no sane person could have predicted. Did you say "Be more confident" to a guy in the early game? Too bad, now you can never remove the curse from the undead witch-queen in the consumed elven ruins. Butterfly effect, amirite? Lulz.

 

[Gargaune]

Techno Union, you seem familiar somehow... Are you the artist formerly known as Auraculum?

 

[Can't handle the bacon]

 

[Azdul]

• 'Bad' outcomes should have some upside.
• 'Good' outcomes should have some downside.
• Some downsides / upsides should be revealed much later on.

Ah, yes, let's turn every choice into a Russian roulette that results in things that no sane person could have predicted. Did you say "Be more confident" to a guy in the early game? Too bad, now you can never remove the curse from the undead witch-queen in the consumed elven ruins. Butterfly effect, amirite? Lulz.

You've defeated a high level boss through cheap tactics and now you wear his shiny armor - people will notice it and may want to steal it for themselves.
You've acquired something valuable through deception and lies - people will be more careful when making business with you.
You've got caught stealing - NPC will be more likely to offer you lucrative illegal job.

The quest results should not be just +1000 XP, +500 GP. Not everyone will be happy about your heroic deeds. For example - saving heir to the throne is the worst thing that could happen for the guy next in succession line.

 

[Can't handle the bacon]

You've defeated a high level boss through cheap tactics and now you wear his shiny armor - people will notice it and may want to steal it for themselves.

And if I defeat a high level boss through expensive tactics and wear his shiny armor - people won't notice it and won't try to steal it for themselves?

 

[lukaszek]

You've defeated a high level boss through cheap tactics and now you wear his shiny armor - people will notice it and may want to steal it for themselves.

And if I defeat a high level boss through expensive tactics and wear his shiny armor - people won't notice it and won't try to steal it for themselves?

alternative is oblivion: use expensive tactics to obtain mithril armor only to be mugged by some ruffian with glass set

 

[octavius]

You are lvl 20 in Oblivion and Ambrose the Robber Kitten in full glass armour demands 10 gold from you or death.

EDIT: ninjaed by a determined poster.

 

[Pentium]

You know what would be interesting? Allowing the computer opponents to savescum.

Imagine an RPG where part of the fun is not killing the enemies ('cause they'll savescum), but crushing their will to fight (i.e. making them ragequit instead).

Spoiler

NPCKill()
{

if(NPCDeaths > 1000)
{

instaSpawn = false;
NPCSay ("Fuck you, bitch! Eat shit n kill ur mom n rape ur grandpa, anus fisting mothafucka nigger!");​

}
else

NPCDeaths++;​

}

 

[mondblut]

You've defeated a high level boss through cheap tactics and now you wear his shiny armor - people will notice it and may want to steal it for themselves.

Are you implying that more xp and loot is somehow a bad thing? Bro, do you even RPG?

 

[mondblut]

Especially these rogue like games where you game is saved automatically in one slot and you can't load old saves anymore annoy me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-Tab
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copy_(command)

 

[mondblut]

You know what would be interesting? Allowing the computer opponents to savescum.

Cool. Now we need to invent a way to have computer opponents buy games, and we're set.

 

[fantadomat]

You know what would be interesting? Allowing the computer opponents to savescum.

Cool. Now we need to invent a way to have computer opponents buy games, and we're set.

Looking at the world at this moment....i wouldn't be surprised if that happens. We do have bullshit magic coins like bitcoin and endless growth muh economy delusions,so it sounds pretty rational compared to that shit lol.

 

[Azdul]

Are you implying that more xp and loot is somehow a bad thing? Bro, do you even RPG?

RPG is more fun when DM is an asshole.

Low level player should suspect that the invisibility ring with infinite charges was clearly intended for someone more powerful. And player won't resist the temptation of using it to get out of embarassing social situation.

At this point it does not matter that you have a save just before acquiring the ring. You'll stick to your choice and try to take advantage of poor Nazguls pathfinding - to get to the ferry before them.

 

[Sinatar]

The developers may be confident enough in their game's stability that they think it won't crash in between save spots.

I'm not so confident. Fuck your console gimmicky save systems and just let me save the fucking game when and where I want. If some tryhard wants to go ironman and have some save limitations there is nothing stopping them from doing that.