Sawyer and ToEE, Troika, BIS and Bio

[AlanC9]

Except that it is important to demonstrate to the player that there has been an attack done for that AoO and the best way you can do that is with the animation for the attack. You can't really use a text box console for that, either, because we're talking about real time here. That stuff would be scrolling pretty fast in that situation. Floating text wouldn't work well either, since you're talking about 8 goblins getting swatted at roughly the same time.

I'd say the goblins falling down dead would be pretty effective feedback. Just add one text floater.

The AoO case where the enemy doesn't drop is a little worse. But the enemies will still have their hit animation on. This would make them pause for an instant, but I dont consider that a bad thing.

And you replay the AoO animation as long as AoOs are still happening. Simple.

Yeah, they're throwing a lot of stuff into HoTU. Bio seems to have been working on this since the release. I get the feeling that a lot of it would have been in the initial release if they had had the time.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Great cleave was supposedly impossible. It is now in.

This was actually sort of neat. Okay, so it's mostly for opponents so flimsy compared to you you shouldn't be fighting them anyway, but it's still nice.

Multiple henchmen was not a part of the engine; now it is.

Too bad henchman AI is still so mind-bogglingly stupid. One is too much frustration as it is. Xanos squared, eh, I'll pass.

Tumbling was not included; and look at it in the game.

I've seen it in the game. I've had a rather silly experience watching my dwarf fighter/rogue in full plate making his tumbling checks and avoiding attacks of opportunity. Giving bonus AC too, that was a nice idea. Now if you don't have tumble maxed out, even buying it cross-class, you're either a bonehead or one of those odd folks who only buy skills that fit their character concept.

3 different dialogue skills instead of just one are now being added.

Yay, now I can spend 3 times the skill points to get the mayor to give me an extra 100 gp after I bring him the head of the orc chieftain. Go Bioware!

Seriously, the point is, just because something is not in the game; doens't mean it can't. It just means they haven't added it for whatever reason. ie. omey, time, find a good way to do so; etc.; etc.

Nothing is impossible in game design.

Exactly. Whenever I hear stuff like that, I often get the feeling all manner of "impossible" improvements are just be a question of whether Dave & Friends can put down the donuts for a couple of hours to catch up with what the modders have been kludging together for quite some time. But then they wouldn't sell expansion packs because the mod community would have already beat them to the punch.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Exactly. Whenever I hear stuff like that, I often get the feeling all manner of "impossible" improvements are just be a question of whether Dave & Friends can put down the donuts for a couple of hours to catch up with what the modders have been kludging together for quite some time. But then they wouldn't sell expansion packs because the mod community would have already beat them to the punch.

Allow me to illustrate. A guy complained that scripting is too complicated:
http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic ... 2&forum=42

Even more shameful is the lack of action on the part of Bioware to correct this grave deficiency to what would otherwise be an almost perfect piece of gaming software. Get a clue guys, GIVE US THE POWER!! Sure, sure...you can say that you have, but let's be real. Focus on streamlining the whole process and do something to make scripting MUCH easier, THEN you have given us the power...and that is of course NWN's only real distinguishing attraction.

Thus far we have seen one expansion and glimpses of another yet to come. What did the community get from SoU? A few prestige classes and fewer tilesets. Oh yeah, and a short but entertaining storyline, which is of course not what the die-hard NWN fans are really clamoring for.

And wat will we see in HotU? Hmmm, a few prestige classes and fewer tilesets...again!! Don't get me wrong, I am thankful for them, as are most I am sure. But c'mon, I would much rather spend twice the cost of a CD game on a disk or two chocked full of usable world building materials than on a short story and a couple teaser capabilities to *** to my arsenal.

Here's a tip for those who may be listening (although in my experience, it is rare that you dev types ever do)...expend your efforts making the scripting process easier for the common guy, give us more options for our worlds like more tilesets, items, character graphics. Give us a simple interface to enable persistent worlds...

Here is a response

Do you have Lilac Souls Script Generator? Although not BioWare created it is a fantastic tool to make scripting of alot of things easy. In addition after creating scripts with it you learn alot about the scripting language by looking back on what the scripts it has created for you.

The BioWare script wizard can do a fair number of scripts as well but it is kind of buried in the conversation editor part of the toolset.

I have a feeling, though it is a totally unsubstantiated feeling that BioWare was relying on the World Builders guide to be the big scripting helper when the game came out, for better or worse.

Once again, Bioware relies on the community to do work for them.

 

[Volourn]

And? Doesn't mean the DM client, or tool set isn't getting any upgrades; it's just that most people are more interested in BIO's campaign so that gets most of their attention. Period.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Hmm, one would think that the overhyped toolset was the main product or at least as important as campaigns, and what's more important for the toolset then scripting?

Also, it's interesting to note that when people complain about campaigns, Bio's defenders such as Volourn argue that the main product is obviosly the toolset, when people bitch about the toolset, the defenders say ... what was that line again, "most people are more interested in BIO's campaign so that gets most of their attention. Period."

Btw, if some guy can do it in his spare time, surely a company like Bio can match the efforts, but evidently, it's more important to work on new tiles, then on actual features.

 

[Volourn]

Nope. I have never stated the main thing is the toolset. You must be mistakingly me for the other BIO fanboys. In fact, I ahve argued with them that most players only play the OCs so of course the OC is the most important thing. Heck, if BIO were to say no to actual OCs for thee xpansions; they would not sale. Period.

There are lots of new features in both patches, and the expansiosn for the toolset and DM client. They are not being ignored; but they aren't the number one priorty.

 

[Ibbz]

Btw, if some guy can do it in his spare time, surely a company like Bio can match the efforts, but evidently, it's more important to work on new tiles, then on actual features.

Does it ever occur to you that Bioware only has a limited number of people? The programmars/developers are making an expansion pack with new features etc that will be used in the expansion story line, they're not there to fulfill all the community's wishes{Which would be impossible considering the number of differing requests}.

The live team handles most of the community requests and have made alot of improvements - Eg: Plot wizard, new monsters etc I believe their currently working on database feature for Persistent worlds. People also seem to forget that they're doing it for free with Bioware not actually making any money from it.

Also I dont see whats so hard about the scripting language, most people wanting to build modules have picked it up within 3 days. Those with the expectation that they can just tell the computer to "Make a module with an epic storyline, new monsters with the BEST NPC's evar!" and expect it to just appear are deluding themselves. If you want to do fancy things, then you have to know how to script, simple as that. Wizards will never achieve all that you want. I'd suggest people who want something that easy go back to Click n Play.

 

[Vault Dweller]

1. One more time: one guy did it and it took him days. Surely a company that employs many people can do it fast enough without leaving other duties unattended.

2. Script generator is an important and necessary feature, not some fancy wish. In fact, it was done by Bio, but "it's kinda buried somewhere" which means it's fucked up and nobody can use it.

3. Yes, of course, why don't the lazy bastards (the community) learn scripting, and while they are at it, learn everything else so they can do all the missing features, fix bugs, etc.

People also seem to forget that they're doing it for free with Bioware not actually making any money from it.

Clueless award of the year goes to Ibbz! :wink:

 

[Voss]

Nothing is impossible in game design.

Except having a hand reach out the monitor and rip your head off when the PC dies to maintain 'realism'.

Stupid technology limitations.

But they say I'm crazy and hard light pixels just aren't possible, and anyway they couldn't leave the medium of the monitor screen in the first place.

But I'll prove them all wrong. One day. Oh yes.
And then they'll pay.

 

[Volourn]

LOL, Voss, i guess I shpuld ahve added within reason.

 

[Ibbz]

2. Script generator is an important and necessary feature, not some fancy wish. In fact, it was done by Bio, but "it's kinda buried somewhere" which means it's fucked up and nobody can use it.

Bullshit. How is it important and neccassary? There are over 2000 modules and I betcha at least half never used the generator.

learn everything else so they can do all the missing features, fix bugs, etc.

Missing features such as? As for bugs, the fact that they've released upwards of 10 patches sorta hints that they fix the bugs themselves.

Clueless award of the year goes to Ibbz!

Do you really think that the Live Team and its existance would make any difference to sales what so ever?

Also, here's another quote on the "issue" of the toolset.

See, the Toolset you have is the same Toolset we are using to create our game and the expansions, and there have been several occasions where features that would have been very cool for us to have could not be included because they would make the toolset more powerful, more dangerous to use for the end user, and more complicated (because those features would allow you to break something if used in the wrong way - and creating the appropriate checks to prevent the end user from using a certain feature in the wrong way would cost time and manpower we could not spare). This kind of trade-off hurts us, because those "complex" features help to create cool single player experience. In a way I (as former member of the community not involved in the creation of the NWN OC) blame this for the not too exciting parts of the Official NWN campaign.

You need to understand that the Toolset feature in NWN was only possible because the Toolset was also be used internally, thus time put into the Toolset was not "wasted". Compared to the overall sales number of NWN copies, the number of people that would use a toolset, regardless how easy it is to use, would be too small to justify putting the man-years into the toolset development that are required to make it as accessible as it is right now. NWScript shares lots of things with C, and there is a reason for it - its a "programming/scripting" language. There is not much you can make to make it more accessible. Even if it had a syntax like Visual Basic, people who got problems with C would not understand it any better - because its a programming language. In a way, setting up plots and quests IS like programming. Developing them in your mind is one thing - putting them into a computer game another. Its *much* like programming because these things share common structures.

There can be things like the Plot Wizard and Lilac's scripting tools that make scripting easier and more accessible, but they are never as flexible as You can be and want to be if you *understand* how to use NWScript as opposed to just using. There is one point I am agreeing with you: Basic tasks are too hard to do for the non programmer in NWN. But I don't think that's because you have to script them - its because there is no really good sorted scripting repository on the web, and in the Toolset. There are so many scripts/ideas that have already been coded and that could, if they would be easy to find, help a lot of people with their mods. I know NWVault has a large library of scripts, as have many other sites and the NWN Data files - but they are a pain to navigate and even if you find the scripts, they are often documented in a way that you need scripting knowledge to use them.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Bullshit. How is it important and neccassary? There are over 2000 modules and I betcha at least half never used the generator.

I agree, and out of those 2000 modules how many are primitive crap? I'm not saying that lack of more accessible scripting is to blame for every one of them but it certainly could have improved the ratio.

Missing features such as? As for bugs, the fact that they've released upwards of 10 patches sorta hints that they fix the bugs themselves.

Such as? There are plenty of stuff that stand between nwn and true 3E implementation beside TB of course.

Do you really think that the Live Team and its existance would make any difference to sales what so ever?

First, It's business, and Bioware was always doing things for profit vs creativity, so if Bio has a business unit such as LT, you can bet your ass it's to make money out of it. That's common sense. Do you think that Blizzard's working on 1.10 just because they care about the community? These little things do help sell games and that's why they're done. There is no other reason.

From your quote on the toolset:

Compared to the overall sales number of NWN copies, the number of people that would use a toolset, regardless how easy it is to use, would be too small to justify putting the man-years into the toolset development that are required to make it as accessible as it is right now

I heard this logic before. It was something like "the number of people who would play the game more then once would be too small to justify multiple paths". Now, regarding man-years, I'll repeat again, some guy made a decent scipt generator in a few days, so why Bio is talking about man-years? Are they that incompetent?

 

[Volourn]

Unlike silly fans, BIo and other companies ahve to go through a process to make a game. Fans answer to themsleves, and that's it. Yes, many fan mods are crap (lucky, I'm smart enough to avoid MOST of those); but who do those fans answer to? No one. Somebody hates your mod; woopity do. Obly had 5 people download it? Woppy do dah. Not to mention, BIO (like Troika with TOEE) have to answer to upwards to 5 different groups). It's not just as simple as doing something, and there ya go. Why do you think on all HOTU screenshots have a warning that they haven't been approved by Atari/WOTC/Hasbro/ Spaghetti Man/Cheesecake/Dogfool? Too many hands in the pie.

The bottom line is most people don't use the toolset, DM client, or even do something as simple as download mods so of course when trying to sale the product they ahve to work on the OCs.

Plus, we all know, most mods would be "crap" no matter what tools are available.

 

[Elwro]

Unlike silly fans, BIo and other companies ahve to go through a process to make a game.

It would be great if they went through this process BEFORE publishing the game.

And this section that Ibbz quoted puzzled me:

See, the Toolset you have is the same Toolset we are using to create our game and the expansions, and there have been several occasions where features that would have been very cool for us to have could not be included because they would make the toolset more powerful, more dangerous to use for the end user, and more complicated (because those features would allow you to break something if used in the wrong way - and creating the appropriate checks to prevent the end user from using a certain feature in the wrong way would cost time and manpower we could not spare). This kind of trade-off hurts us, because those "complex" features help to create cool single player experience. In a way I (as former member of the community not involved in the creation of the NWN OC) blame this for the not too exciting parts of the Official NWN campaign.

I just have the intuition that the guy is lying. It just shows that they hadn't really wanted to do a good OC. If they had, they would have added the abovementioned "complex" features to the editor, and if they were still scared, they would then cut them out, which would perhaps take one man-hour to do. But why should they care for the safety of silly end users so much? I think that they could insert a suitable "Bioware won't be responsible for any damage you do to your cat using the Aurora Toolset" easily in the EOL, or even they already did.
And come on, no one using the Elder Scroll Construction Set cries that his toolset did him any damage.

 

[Volourn]

What the heck are you babbling about? Really? That post makes no sense. I wnat VD to post as he tends to make sense... most fo the time.

 

[Elwro]

What the paragraph quoted by me says can be imo summed up like that:

1.BIO could have made a better toolset.
2. BIO wanted to make a better toolset (by adding Z features) in order to improve the OC.
3. BIO thought that the Z features were dangerous, because the end user could "break something" using them.
4. So, BIO decided not to add Z features.

So, you really think, Volourn, that it was a reasonable behaviour? I just meant that it would be easy from the programming point of view to remove some toolset functions after improving the OC. Isn't that strange they didn't think of that?
Sorry for being unclear in my previous post, I hope this one is more readable.

And finally, by using TECS you can break everyting you want in the game, and everyone agrees it's not the fault of the editor. It gives warnings. Too hard to implement?

EDT: typos.

 

[Volourn]

I'm not going to comment on ES' toolset as I have nevr tried to use it so anything I'd post good or bad - would be foolishness.

BIO always intended for a fan friendly toolset (though imo, it's nowhere near as easily useable as I thought it would be), and the OC was originally non existent. Remember, the OCs are made using the same exact tools the players have access to. Anything inculded in the BIO OCs - both good and bad - are doable by players.

Why would they remove certain toolset functions as that would get rid of something that they were talking abot - the toolset used to make the OCs by BIO can be used by players.

As for breaking things; I'm no tech junkie, so I'm not gonna comment on that. It sounds like hyperbole on BIO's part, imo.

P.S. That post was much clearer for my simple mind. :D

 

[Vault Dweller]

The bottom line is most people don't use the toolset, DM client, or even do something as simple as download mods so of course when trying to sale the product they ahve to work on the OCs.

You are well aware that they were pimping the toolset and DM client a lot, often as a main feature. Ability to make your own mods and adventures was the main selling and buying point. So I'm surprised that it was in a half-assed state, that's all. Whether or not most people would have used it is a different matter, but from what I can see this fan made script generator was rather popular, so the demand was there (27,700 downloads).

Plus, we all know, most mods would be "crap" no matter what tools are available.

True, but no excuse. :wink:

Remember, the OCs are made using the same exact tools the players have access to. Anything inculded in the BIO OCs - both good and bad - are doable by players

Remember, Bio's people are professional programmers, fans are not. There is a difference between an internal toolset and a user-friendly toolset designed to help users make quality mods and finish them in this century. There is a reason why there are no Fallout mods despite the editor being now available.

 

[Volourn]

True. The toolset was hyped as a big selling point. However, BIO's own research suggest that upwards of 70% of NWN owners even the ones the who like the OC - had not touched all that other stuff. To say it was in a half ass state is kind of going overboard? You seem to imply the toolset is imposisble to work with, or broken which it is neither or else all the mods that were made would have been totally impossible. Are there things that could have been better? Sure.. and, the cool thing is for those who like the game, they are.

Exuse for what? For the toolset not being perfect? Of course, not.

Obviously, 2000+ mods have been built in just over ayear. Stop exaggeration. Fallout was never meant to be fan modded so it's not surprising that many mods aren't made.

While, it is true, many fans are not professionals. There are those who are; and they tend to be the most successufl. Or you got the geeks who spend forever to make their mods.

Me? I'll still terminatings cripting which I absolutely hate.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

You know, I just keep wondering how in the hell we keep drifting to this topic, which I stay out of cause I have never played NWN. Come on people! Let's stay focused!!!!! :D

 

[Ibbz]

I agree, and out of those 2000 modules how many are primitive crap? I'm not saying that lack of more accessible scripting is to blame for every one of them but it certainly could have improved the ratio.

It wouldnt surprise me if a large number of the crap ones did use the script generator because module author couldnt be bothered learning how to script.

Such as? There are plenty of stuff that stand between nwn and true 3E implementation beside TB of course.

Oddly enough they dont even mention that it uses the 3E rules on the box, and i'm certain they never claimed that it would be as close an implementation as ToEE.

First, It's business, and Bioware was always doing things for profit vs creativity, so if Bio has a business unit such as LT, you can bet your ass it's to make money out of it. That's common sense. Do you think that Blizzard's working on 1.10 just because they care about the community? These little things do help sell games and that's why they're done. There is no other reason.

95% of the people who purchase NWN would never have heard of the Live Team. Its hardly publicised and i think the salaries of at least 7 employees would far outweigh whatever minor boost in sales it caused.

I heard this logic before. It was something like "the number of people who would play the game more then once would be too small to justify multiple paths". Now, regarding man-years, I'll repeat again, some guy made a decent scipt generator in a few days, so why Bio is talking about man-years? Are they that incompetent?

I believe by making it "accessible", they actually mean doing a bit more than a script generator.

I just have the intuition that the guy is lying. It just shows that they hadn't really wanted to do a good OC. If they had, they would have added the abovementioned "complex" features to the editor, and if they were still scared, they would then cut them out, which would perhaps take one man-hour to do. But why should they care for the safety of silly end users so much? I think that they could insert a suitable "Bioware won't be responsible for any damage you do to your cat using the Aurora Toolset" easily in the EOL, or even they already did.
And come on, no one using the Elder Scroll Construction Set cries that his toolset did him any damage.

Whats the point of adding features if they're going to be cut out? Thats a pretty big waste of man hours there. I'm not sure what exactly he means by complex features but if its in regards to modifying the game engine and some clueless newbie happens to cause everything to become corrupted, who do you think they're gonna blame? Or what happens when they try to play online and their version is incompatible because they changed something?

 

[Vault Dweller]

I agree, and out of those 2000 modules how many are primitive crap? I'm not saying that lack of more accessible scripting is to blame for every one of them but it certainly could have improved the ratio.

It wouldnt surprise me if a large number of the crap ones did use the script generator because module author couldnt be bothered learning how to script.

Speculations.

Oddly enough they dont even mention that it uses the 3E rules on the box, and i'm certain they never claimed that it would be as close an implementation as ToEE.

Oddly enough it's DnD, so it either uses 2E or 3E. Whatever's not in is a missing feature, don't you think?

95% of the people who purchase NWN would never have heard of the Live Team. Its hardly publicised and i think the salaries of at least 7 employees would far outweigh whatever minor boost in sales it caused.

These numbers, 95% and "minor boost in sales", did you just made them up or do you have a link readily available?

I believe by making it "accessible", they actually mean doing a bit more than a script generator.

With all due respect, what you believe in is not an argument, just as what Bio means or meant to do is not an argument. I offered you facts. People were asking for the script generator. Bio said that it had one but it's unavailable. Some guy did one and it took him days to do it. It was dowloaded 27,000+ times. You can make your own conclusions, and let's end this discussion as it's pointless.

 

[Ibbz]

Speculations.

Provide me with some hard evidence that says otherwise.

Oddly enough it's DnD, so it either uses 2E or 3E. Whatever's not in is a missing feature, don't you think?

Eh? If they didnt claim it would be a perfect representation of 3E rules then how are the missing rules {With most differences being made quite clear before it was released} considered missing features? If you bought the game expecting 3E down to the letter then thats your loss.

These numbers, 95% and "minor boost in sales", did you just made them up or do you have a link readily available?

Its my estimate. I dont see you providing any evidence that refutes it.

With all due respect, what you believe in is not an argument, just as what Bio means or meant to do is not an argument. I offered you facts. People were asking for the script generator. Bio said that it had one but it's unavailable. Some guy did one and it took him days to do it. It was dowloaded 27,000+ times. You can make your own conclusions, and let's end this discussion as it's pointless.

What facts? "Oh this person said that on the forums, so everyone must want it." Going by that sort of method, the people who posted saying they loved the OC must mean everyone loves the OC, correct?

The only thing you have presented was the 27000 downloads number which you didnt mention until your last post. Even that doesnt prove anything conclusive. In fact your constant claim that it was released "days" after NWN was released goes against the date it was added into NWVault. {Feb 11 2003} NWN was released June Last year. Thats a bit longer than "days".

Note: I'm not denying that the script generator maybe very useful but its not the end all be all of tools to help you make a module. On that note, I'll stop posting.

 

[AlanC9]

Oddly enough it's DnD, so it either uses 2E or 3E. Whatever's not in is a missing feature, don't you think?

Not if the missing or changed rule wasn't good for a computer game. A lot of the Bio changes were dumb, but a couple were improvements. At least one actually got into 3.5 (Weapon Finesse). I'm actually more bothered by Troika's rule changes than Bio's, since Troika was supposed to be doing a faithful implementation, as opposed to Bio's ...er... loose translation?

And sure, Bio should have done a script wizard themselves. But anyone who thinks that would help someone write a great module is kidding himself. The hard thing about NWScript isn't the syntax or any of that. Programming itself is hard. Anyone who wants to do something complex is simply going to have to learn the discipline. I think that's why Bio's people never took the issue seriously.

The real value of a script wizard is that it automates things for someone who already knows how to code them. And it's a good learning tool.

 

[Elwro]

[Whats the point of adding features [to the toolset - Elwro] if they're going to be cut out?

Why, both to improve the quality of the OC and to ensure that no clueless newbie corrupts everything in his module. You did read the hype concerning the OC, didn't you?