Sawyer and ToEE, Troika, BIS and Bio

[Vault Dweller]

Another day, another battle

Turn base combat isn't inherently more tatical, imo; but the games that use it tend to be.

Can you repeat that again? Don't you think that the games that use TB tend to be more tactical BECAUSE THEY USE TB COMBAT not because they design maps with tactics in mind? Have you had a chance to play X-Com 1-2 and then compare them to X-Com: Apocalypse? I think that clearly shows which combat is way more tactical, dontcha think? Same setting, same goals, same structure, different combat mode, one dead franchise.

I find tatically, NWN and the IE games are almsot as good.

Well, may be it's as good tatically, but hardly tactically :wink: Yeah, I know, it's low to pick on your types, but I couldn't resist :D
So how do you figure that? Can you give us examples of tactics that you successfully employed?

The reason why they are only almost as good is because TOEE offers more options.

So if ToEE didn't have trips and aoo, it would not have been a good tactical game?

Options, that if a developer, wanted to could add into a pseudo RT/TB games liek NWN.

Well, you see, I have a problem with such reasoning because it downplays the efforts put into a really good, feature-rich game and put it on one level with some half-assed games for no other reason then that they could have done it too. So why the fuck didn't they? Who stopped them? Why should anybody care about what could have been? No, really?

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I'm sorry, but what do people expect Shops to sell to 15th level and above adventurers?

Wooden swords?

Something that doesn't eliminate the interest in adveturing? I mean, magical weapons are fine and dandy, but if i can get the same in a shop that i could get in a damp and cold crypt, there's not much point is there?

 

[Visceris]

You got that right. That is why in my own fantasy campaigns the most I ever have in a shop is a +2 weapon or armor (or a equivelent) and pretty damn expensive, usually 3 times the listed value. Anything stronger is usually picked up in a day by a rich NPC almost immediately.

That really caused a problem a while back for my players. They got a old of a +2 dagger that had flaming and ghost touch traits but the guy who got the dagger in the roll off decided to sell it. A week after being sold the party realized the needed it because it was a key to a tomb they had to get into, but it was already sold by the shopkeeper. There was a strict time table they had to keep as well.

It took them a month in game time to find the buyer and convince her to sell the dagger back tot he party, at a premium price, so tthey can get into the tomb. By the time they got there it was too late.

Gods, I love messing with my players like that. (tee hee)

 

[Vault Dweller]

I agree, shops shouldn't carry anything higher then +2. You want the good stuff? Get off your ass and go adventuring.

 

[Psilon]

Even if it's to raid the armory for the bigger stuff. If you want the item so badly that you're willing to effectively declare war on the city to get it, good luck. Just don't complain if the Baron's bodyguards get to them first and give you a demonstration.

 

[AlanC9]

I agree, shops shouldn't carry anything higher then +2. You want the good stuff? Get off your ass and go adventuring.

Or make it yourself.

Visc, how are you handling player crafting in your game? Do you keep the players on a tight time schedule most of the time? Do they feel too short of XP or gold to do it? Or do they just craft away?

Vault Dweller -- when you (and others here) say "tactical," you're not using any of the dictionary meanings. I'm sure I know what you mean by it, but would you care to take a shot at a definition?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Vault Dweller -- when you (and others here) say "tactical," you're not using any of the dictionary meanings. I'm sure I know what you mean by it, but would you care to take a shot at a definition?

Would you care to take a shot at the definition of "dictionary"?
Anyway, the one I have states that tactical is "something that you do in order to be successful in a particular situation, usually something which you would not normally do" eg. This was simply a tactical move by De Gaulle...OMG :shock: what kinda lame ass dictionary is that? De Gaulle wouldn't have known tactics if it bit him in the ass...I mean, the guy made five! unsuccessful attempts to escape from a war camp. Great tactics, man.
Anyway, here is another dictionary, that firmly believes that tactics is the science and art of disposing and maneuvering forces in combat or the art or skill of employing available means to accomplish an end.
I personally think that tactics is the art of using all available resources (terrain, situation, units, skills, items, abilities, etc) with maximum effect and efficiency in the right place at the right time. How is that?

 

[Volourn]

Trip, and AOO isn't what gives TOEE the dge as NWN basically has these. It actually has AOO, an dit has knockdown which basically works like trip.

Why do I compae them? Simple. Because, my point, the reason that TOEE's combat gives more options as that was the basic goal of Troika's TOEE,. They used their time in development to enhance the combat and give options like 5' move, holding attacks, and the like; but didn't have the time or didn't bother to do thins that the IE or NWN offered. Or Fo that matter. I say that a pseudo RT game can eaisly have as much options as a tb games. Heck, NWN has lots of these options ready to use - from knockdown, to called shots (which TOEE doesn't have, btw) there are lots of different ways to approach combat in NWN.

As for the magic item issue goes; I'm a real bastard. My PCs are lucky to have all +1 weapons by the time 10th. In my latest campaign, out of a party of 5 level 8 characters; they had 3 such weapons and only on magical suit of armour. I am a prick, oh, yes I am.

 

[Chadeo]

In d&d the rounds can have a variable length of time (or perhaps said differently, the characters in the game have variable levels of speed).

This is shown with a few rather simple examples:

PC with great cleave surrounded by 8 goblins kills one, and then proceeds to kill the remaining 7 all in the same sound.

PC fighter with combat reflexes is standing in front of a horde of bad guys, with a PC mage standing a short ways behind him. Horde of bad guys wins initiative and decides to run past the fighter to go for the mage to avoid getting hit with that fireball. While running past the fighter dozens of AoO are generated, all in a single round.

Neither of these rather common scenarios can be duplicated in RT.

If you take the out and say that you can pause a hybrid system each round to get the affect of turn based so you can have full control over your actions, you are basically saying that the real time game should be played like a turn based one for the best experience. Thus you are proving your own argument false.

Personally I would like to see the opposite of the “it’s a real time system but you can pause it to make it kind of play like a turn based one”. I want a true turn based system that will just allow me the option of turning control of my party over to the AI to quickly finish up a battle that I know I have won. You could even expand this to allow for a high level direction of the action, while still keeping it all turn based.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Trip, and AOO isn't what gives TOEE the dge as NWN basically has these. It actually has AOO, an dit has knockdown which basically works like trip.

Basically, technically, and theoretically are great examples of wishful thinking but have no actual use

Because, my point, the reason that TOEE's combat gives more options as that was the basic goal of Troika's TOEE. They used their time in development to enhance the combat and give options like 5' move, holding attacks, and the like; but didn't have the time or didn't bother to do thins that the IE or NWN offered.

That is a good point. No, wait, it would have been a good point, if ToEE development cicle was the same as BG and NWN. I wanna see what game Troika could have made in 5 years and with 70+ people. Both IWD games were combat focused, yet I don't see all these features that according to you are very easy to implement. So like I said I see no point in the comparison other then to prove Bio's incompetence

there are lots of different ways to approach combat in NWN.

Yes, like start attacking a dragon :!: and leave the room to do something else :wink:

 

[Volourn]

Your second point is a fine example of wishful thinking, I believe. Also of note, IWD asn't made by BIO so how does that show BIO's incompetence? Hmmm...

Make exuses for TOEE's shortcomings by whining about it's relatively short dvelopment cycle; the bottom line is that you are making wisful thinking that just because they had more time the game would be better in other areas. I say baloney. They would have probably used that time to make the combat even better. Troika didn't care about role-playing options in TOEE; I think they only added them in to appease their core fanbase, and nothing more which is why they fall flat compared to their other game Arcanum, and Mr. Cain's claim to fame FO.

 

[AlanC9]

Anyway, the one I have states that tactical is "something that you do in order to be successful in a particular situation, usually something which you would not normally do" eg. This was simply a tactical move by De Gaulle...OMG :shock: what kinda lame ass dictionary is that? De Gaulle wouldn't have known tactics if it bit him in the ass...I mean, the guy made five! unsuccessful attempts to escape from a war camp. Great tactics, man.
Anyway, here is another dictionary, that firmly believes that tactics is the science and art of disposing and maneuvering forces in combat or the art or skill of employing available means to accomplish an end.
I personally think that tactics is the art of using all available resources (terrain, situation, units, skills, items, abilities, etc) with maximum effect and efficiency in the right place at the right time. How is that?

That's just fine, but that isn't what you mean when you call a game "tactical". By those definitions, NWN is tactical. You can practice the art of using all available resources there; it's just that you don't have all that many options to pick from.

You actually mean something along the lines of "implementing a game system presenting many tactical options."

/nitpick

 

[AlanC9]

This is shown with a few rather simple examples:

PC with great cleave surrounded by 8 goblins kills one, and then proceeds to kill the remaining 7 all in the same sound.

PC fighter with combat reflexes is standing in front of a horde of bad guys, with a PC mage standing a short ways behind him. Horde of bad guys wins initiative and decides to run past the fighter to go for the mage to avoid getting hit with that fireball. While running past the fighter dozens of AoO are generated, all in a single round.

Neither of these rather common scenarios can be duplicated in RT.

Why not? Neither of those requires any input from the player. They all happen automatically. The only thing that can't happen in RT is that the game can't play the attack animation for each attack. Irrelevant to gameplay.

Edit: Great Cleave is in NWN. Combat Reflexes is not, but I haven't seen a complete HoTU feat list yet.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Why not? Neither of those requires any input from the player. They all happen automatically. The only thing that can't happen in RT is that the game can't play the attack animation for each attack. Irrelevant to gameplay.

Edit: Great Cleave is in NWN. Combat Reflexes is not, but I haven't seen a complete HoTU feat list yet.

Except that it is important to demonstrate to the player that there has been an attack done for that AoO and the best way you can do that is with the animation for the attack. You can't really use a text box console for that, either, because we're talking about real time here. That stuff would be scrolling pretty fast in that situation. Floating text wouldn't work well either, since you're talking about 8 goblins getting swatted at roughly the same time.

 

[Ibbz]

This is shown with a few rather simple examples:

PC with great cleave surrounded by 8 goblins kills one, and then proceeds to kill the remaining 7 all in the same sound.

PC fighter with combat reflexes is standing in front of a horde of bad guys, with a PC mage standing a short ways behind him. Horde of bad guys wins initiative and decides to run past the fighter to go for the mage to avoid getting hit with that fireball. While running past the fighter dozens of AoO are generated, all in a single round.

Neither of these rather common scenarios can be duplicated in RT.

Yes it can. I've seen it happen plenty of times in NWN multiplayer.

Floating text wouldn't work well either, since you're talking about 8 goblins getting swatted at roughly the same time.

NWN has floating text and combat animations when there are AOO.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Floating text wouldn't work well either, since you're talking about 8 goblins getting swatted at roughly the same time.

NWN has floating text and combat animations when there are AOO.

Notice the lack of Combat Reflexes in NWN also, Ibbz.

 

[Volourn]

Doesn't mean it's not possible to be added. TOEE doesn't have item identifcation; but that doens't mean it can't be added.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Doesn't mean it's not possible to be added. TOEE doesn't have item identifcation; but that doens't mean it can't be added.

Surely you can see the difference between adding a little more text and adding a feat that is clearly not supported by the engine

 

[Volourn]

The same thing has been said about other things for the Aurora Engine.

Great cleave was supposedly impossible. It is now in.

Multiple henchmen was not a part of the engine; now it is.

Tumbling was not included; and look at it in the game.

Beholders would take up too much resources; but omg, they're in.

Actual item creation feats would mess things up; but look they are soon to be here.

3 different dialogue skills instead of just one are now being added.


And, on, and on.

Interesting...

People keep on saying these things aren'ty supported by the Aurora Engine yet BIO keeps on proving those people wrong.


Seriously, the point is, just because something is not in the game; doens't mean it can't. It just means they haven't added it for whatever reason. ie. omey, time, find a good way to do so; etc.; etc.

Nothing is impossible in game design.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

And the worst part is, that most of the people who said those couldn't be included were Bioware themselves.

Nothing is impossible in game implementation as well, as it would seem.

 

[Volourn]

No, they didn't. They said things would be impossible without major work; not that they were impossible as in can't be done under any circumstances.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Doesn't mean it's not possible to be added. TOEE doesn't have item identifcation; but that doens't mean it can't be added.

It has identification, it just doesn't give you a score card.

 

[Volourn]

You call that id? x weapon +3, or staff of identifcation fals the common sense implementation senses just as much as everspawn does. Neither of these things in either game should have made it past the ground.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The same thing has been said about other things for the Aurora Engine.

Great cleave was supposedly impossible. It is now in.

Multiple henchmen was not a part of the engine; now it is.

Tumbling was not included; and look at it in the game.

Beholders would take up too much resources; but omg, they're in.

Actual item creation feats would mess things up; but look they are soon to be here.

3 different dialogue skills instead of just one are now being added..

Well,...I...I don't know what to say. I didn't know. OMG!!!! I can't believe that after all these years and several releases they FINALLY added such minor to gameplay things like great cleave (who uses it anyway ), multiple henchmen (why have a party when you can whack a dragon all by yourself ), etc.
I haven't heard the one about beholders though, what kinda resources we are talking about, pixels, screen space?

 

[Volourn]

Pixels was the "problem". I'm surprsised you didn't hear about it since it was a big deal. No beholders in a D&D game? Perish the thought.