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Sawyer and ToEE, Troika, BIS and Bio

Vault Dweller

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Just to clear up some confusion, I never said "days after the release", I said it took him days as in not weeks or months or years indicating that this was not some major work that Bio couldn't afford time-wise.
 

Ibbz

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This thread could go on arguing over this forever. {And there's plenty of other threads that contain the same argument.}

Its long since stopped discussing the original post and I dont think theres much reason for this to remain open. If other people in the argument really want to discuss this further, PM each other.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Exitium, Spazmo, and myself just discussed the locking of this thread, and we decided the shifting of topic was acceptable and the thread is not worthy of a lock. So, unlocked and yippie!
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Volourn said:
Why do you think on all HOTU screenshots have a warning that they haven't been approved by Atari/WOTC/Hasbro/ Spaghetti Man/Cheesecake/Dogfool? Too many hands in the pie.

This is why it took FOREVER to get screenshots of ToEE, actually. Wizards of the Coast didn't approve any shots of the game for release for a long.. long.. long.. long time. I believe they released the movie for the game before any shots were available to the public, which I thought was kind of odd.

Vault Dweller said:
I heard this logic before. It was something like "the number of people who would play the game more then once would be too small to justify multiple paths". Now, regarding man-years, I'll repeat again, some guy made a decent scipt generator in a few days, so why Bio is talking about man-years? Are they that incompetent?

This is actually a good point, but then again, most of the good tool things that come out are made by fans for a lot of games. Then again, most developers don't pimp out their tools nearly as much as BioWare did, claiming they're the best thing since sliced bread. I still have fond memories of making maps with Annihilator as opposed to the editor Cavedog released for Total Annihilation, though.
 

Sol Invictus

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Ibbz said:
Does it ever occur to you that Bioware only has a limited number of people? The programmars/developers are making an expansion pack with new features etc that will be used in the expansion story line, they're not there to fulfill all the community's wishes{Which would be impossible considering the number of differing requests}.
Are you that clueless or do you get off on pretending to be that way? Just so you know, cluelessness isn't exactly a trait that'll get you any modicum of respect.

First, let's examine Bioware and the so-called 'difficulties' which they seem to encounter during the development phase of any game. I'll bring out the light ammunition first - Cloaks. I'll paraphrase what theyv'e said about cloaks so far: "Oh, they are too hard to implement, as high quality cloth is difficult to program, especially in such a short amount of time - 5 years."

And yet Troika's able to pull out cloaks, robes, and all forms of seamless high quality cloth in ToEE in just under 18 months. Similarly, there are developers made up of extaordinarily few members (comprising of 5 or less) who can produce, or are attempting to produce similar results (in different areas, not cloaks per se), albeit to a lesser degree, such as the folks working on Restricted Area, or to a greater degree, companies like Larian Studios, which do not exactly have a large budget - they're able to produce a graphical masterpiece like the upcoming Riftrunner, with probably 5% of the budget that Bioware consumed for its development of Neverwinter Nights.

Heck, you've got modders and graphics designers who managed to produce the cloaks they desired in NWN in less than a week, which are sadly difficult to implement as Bioware decided it was in the interest of some invisible decision-maker that certain modelling functions, including the implementation of cloaks, would be hardcoded into the system and thus difficult to implement properly. Surely, there are workarounds (which utilize the head mesh to carry the cloaks) but the point is that the modders shouldn't have to build workarounds for Bioware's own lack of support.

The live team handles most of the community requests and have made alot of improvements - Eg: Plot wizard, new monsters etc I believe their currently working on database feature for Persistent worlds. People also seem to forget that they're doing it for free with Bioware not actually making any money from it.

Most of which are unreleased and can't be used. Oh, and nobody cares about new monsters - people want dialogue editing options. Doing it for free? Hardly - when you pay the 70 dollar pricetag on NWN and the 50 dollar price tag on SOU, you expect that kind of continued support. It's promised on the box, and hence is part of the service. It is exactly the same with Blizzard's Battle.net service. Suppose they discontinued it, you could sue them and actually win.

Also I dont see whats so hard about the scripting language, most people wanting to build modules have picked it up within 3 days. Those with the expectation that they can just tell the computer to "Make a module with an epic storyline, new monsters with the BEST NPC's evar!" and expect it to just appear are deluding themselves. If you want to do fancy things, then you have to know how to script, simple as that. Wizards will never achieve all that you want. I'd suggest people who want something that easy go back to Click n Play.

DMs shouldn't be expected to learn C in order to port their campaign into the PC on a game which promised to be the most user friendly game, ever. While it is certainly true that most people would in fact benefit from learning a new scripting language it doesn't change the fact, or shift away the responsibility from Bioware to produce a cleaner UI for modding.
 

Sol Invictus

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Bet you a dollar some tool is going to respond now and tell me how cloaks are unimportant. Cloaks aren't the issue, GEENYOUS.

The issue is stating you don't have the ability to do something even with a huge budget and a large development team and a smaller team with less time and a lot less money comes up with it in a really short while, trumping your idiotic ass.
 

Volourn

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Geez.. What they said, that their resources allocated to NWN is better used on more important things than cloaks which is why they arne't doing it.

You guys go on like BIO has access to some endless money pit which just isn't true. They have a budget just like anyone else, and they seem to use it much more successfully than others.

Last I checked, BIo wans't always a top developer. They earned their money as they kow how to spend what they ahve.

Lots of people may want cloaks; but not as many as epic levels so BIo has decided to spend their resources on epic levels? Seems very intelligent to me.

The cloaks by the community may look ok; but they clip as do the ones in TOEE. Bio doesn't want their cloaks to do that so it's not worth it to them.

Lats I check, cloaks aren't exactly game sellers you know depsite the ranting of a minority.
 

Volourn

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Yes, but allocation of resources are. It's not that BIO can't do them; it's that they feel other things are more important. Disagree with that; but it's their porogative.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Exitium said:
First, let's examine Bioware and the so-called 'difficulties' which they seem to encounter during the development phase of any game. I'll bring out the light ammunition first - Cloaks. I'll paraphrase what theyv'e said about cloaks so far: "Oh, they are too hard to implement, as high quality cloth is difficult to program, especially in such a short amount of time - 5 years."

Don't forget Beholders, which they said were impossible to impliment with NWN's skeletal animation system - until a third party person made beholders for the game. We're talking about one of the most popular monsters in D&D, no less.
 

Ibbz

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Oh, and nice going Ibbz (yeah right). In the future, try not to be so power happy.
Considering it was just me and VD, Volourn, Elwro and Alan covering the same ground i didnt think there was much reason to continue it.
Are you that clueless or do you get off on pretending to be that way? Just so you know, cluelessness isn't exactly a trait that'll get you any modicum of respect.
Way to take a quote out context, jackass. I was talking about the EXPANSION {HOTU} not the original NWN.
First, let's examine Bioware and the so-called 'difficulties' which they seem to encounter during the development phase of any game. I'll bring out the light ammunition first - Cloaks. I'll paraphrase what theyv'e said about cloaks so far: "Oh, they are too hard to implement, as high quality cloth is difficult to program, especially in such a short amount of time - 5 years."
Instead of arguing about this idiotic point, i'll just post David gaider's quote. {Coincidentally, when have cloaks/graphics in general made any difference what so ever? I somehow didnt think when they set out with the NWN engine they thought cloaks would be a big issue}
David Gaider said:
No, we don't do cloaks because we don't have time to do them well and we really don't see the point in doing crappy ones on purpose. It's one thing to try to achieve something quality and have it not turn out than to know you're not going to achieve that quality in the first place. Does a policy of not setting out to make crap make sense to you or would you prefer to make another sarcastic comment?
Heck, you've got modders and graphics designers who managed to produce the cloaks they desired in NWN in less than a week, which are sadly difficult to implement as Bioware decided it was in the interest of some invisible decision-maker that certain modelling functions, including the implementation of cloaks, would be hardcoded into the system and thus difficult to implement properly. Surely, there are workarounds (which utilize the head mesh to carry the cloaks) but the point is that the modders shouldn't have to build workarounds for Bioware's own lack of support.
Have you seen these cloaks? They look like SHIT. They suffer from numerous collision detection issues and dont move one bit. In fact their like pieces of cardboard jutting out from the characters back.
The issue is stating you don't have the ability to do something even with a huge budget and a large development team and a smaller team with less time and a lot less money comes up with it in a really short while, trumping your idiotic ass.
Really? Bethesda didnt see the need for cloaks in Morrowind. Are they too stupid too? Or did they have higher priorities? - Ever occur to you that Bioware didnt think this was a high priority either? That finishing the toolset, dm client etc may have been more important?

Don't forget Beholders, which they said were impossible to impliment with NWN's skeletal animation system - until a third party person made beholders for the game. We're talking about one of the most popular monsters in D&D, no less.
I believe Beholders werent done because of the "skin mesh" feature wasnt added until very late in the development and that was only so they could do dragon wings.
Most of which are unreleased and can't be used. Oh, and nobody cares about new monsters - people want dialogue editing options. Doing it for free? Hardly - when you pay the 70 dollar pricetag on NWN and the 50 dollar price tag on SOU, you expect that kind of continued support. It's promised on the box, and hence is part of the service. It is exactly the same with Blizzard's Battle.net service. Suppose they discontinued it, you could sue them and actually win.
No body cares about new monsters? Then how come people have used them in their modules?
{Could you clarify what you meant by dialogue editing options.}
Actually, Bioware/Gamespy provide the same service as Battle.Net with the Live Team on top of that. As i said earlier, the Live Team is not promised or mentioned on the box.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Ibbz said:
Really? Bethesda didnt see the need for cloaks in Morrowind. Are they too stupid too? Or did they have higher priorities? - Ever occur to you that Bioware didnt think this was a high priority either? That finishing the toolset, dm client etc may have been more important?

Bethesda didn't make a D&D game, either. Cloaks are a fairly common item in D&D, and frankly, they are typically displayed on the player in most modern D&D games. In Morrowind, however, every single piece of equipment you could put on your body was visually displayed on your character, so it's rather silly to even mention Morrowind because it didn't even bother to have any cloaks in the game - but everything that you could wear shows up on the character. This is in sharp contrast to NWN where you could wear a cloak, but it doesn't show up at all in the game.

I think Exitium's point is a pretty good one and very valid. ToEE has very nice cloaks, though there are a few clipping issues when wearing a cloak and a sorceror's robes. However, Troika didn't have near the development time, nor did they have near the man years that BioWare had working on NWN to make ToEE.
 

EEVIAC

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Vault Dweller said:
Exitium said:
Cloaks aren't the issue

Maybe not, but cloaks are still immensely important in a fantasy world. If you have to sleep on hard ground you can lie on your cloak. In the winter you can use a cloak as a blanket. If you were resting in soft meadow in the crisp spring countryside, you'd roll the cloak up into a pillow. Apart from comfort issues, hugging a cloak tightly around your body allows you to conceal sheathed weapons and magical armour from would be attackers, for modest adventuring types.

To that end, I'd go as far to say that cloaks are the foundation of intelligent and comfortable adventuring.
 

Major_Blackhart

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Gotta agree with these guys here. Cloaks, capes, the whole nine are immensly important to good ol' fashioned DnD. I still don't understand how they couldn't do cloaks with their engine. I've seen some of the stuff, screens, movies and such, and I dont think it would have been too difficult for em to implement, but then again I aint no programmer.
 

Volourn

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They never said it couldn't. They just felt, ito, that compared to other things, cloaks weren't worth the effort. Other things took higher priorty is all. As for cloaks being so important in D&D; I sure haven't noticed that; but hey, to each their own.
 

Shevek

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Cloaks, Robes, hats, hoods, open faced helms etc are not necessarily of extreme importance to DnD gameplay per se but they are certainly a key part of a character's image and, ultimately, of immersion. Gandalf (perhaps I should name a DnD guy...umm...Elminster, Raistlin, whatever) hatless and in tight leather pants just wouldnt be the same. Also, if the community which Bio claims to listen to speaks out so loudly for the inclusion of such features (pre-release mind you) in a product so heavily dependent on community involvement, maybe they should have been heard. Still, I can respect they wanted to focus their development efforts in other areas. At least, NWN fans do have some imperfect alternatives to turn to for some of this stuff thanks to some strong efforts by modders (though Ibbz is right, they do not look particularly good). Unfortunately, all these modded features are not necessarily made available in every module since they are dependent on module author to add them in. I suppose it is up to the individual to wiegh what importance they wish to place on these things. I found it to be pretty key but can understand that some others may not.

Ultimately, I think the original point, that the Troika team was able to implement these features without a plethora of man-years and a smaller team, thereby somewhat drawing scrutiny to the Bio excuse of time constraints is somewhat valid. Cloaks and the like are an important feature for many and another company proved they could be implemented with not nearly the amount of effort that Bio suggested - so what gives? This point is especially pressing when you consider the out cry for this feature in both the original NwN and later in SoU. However, game engines differ, I suppose, and perhaps drawing such parallels is not entirely fair.
 

EEVIAC

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Elwro said:
Yes, and you simply have to have a black cloak in order to do any cloak'n'dagger adventuring.

I'll admit to being a D&D idiot, but I don't understand daggers. The only person a dagger will ever go to is a mage, and they can't do much with it anyways. (Although the mage's dagger I got early on in IWD that granted an extra 1st level spell was extremely usefull.) If I've missed something important, please point out the folly of my ways.
 

Nomad

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In trying to adhere to the forum's new guidelines, I give you the following post.

In 18 months Troika had to deliver:

* a modified version of the 2D graphics engine used on Arcanum, one of their earlier titles.
* a modified version of the single-player game engine, also used on Arcanum, that uses the D&D 3.5 Edition ruleset, an update to a ruleset that's been out for 3 years.
* an implementation of a story that _everyone_ that's played PnP D&D already knows.


In 5 years Bio had to deliver:

* a new 3D graphics engine.
* a new game engine using WotC's then unfinalized D&D 3rd Edition ruleset.
* a user-friendly toolset.
* multiplayer capabilities.
* a dm client.
* a dedicated server
* an "original story" (i.e. one which was not based on an existing PnP D&D module) that worked in both single and multi-player.


Troika had less time, fewer developers and a smaller feature set starting from an existing engine. BioWare had more developers, a longer time and a larger feature set starting from scratch. Both sound like admirable achievements in their own right and I'd say that any comparison needs to take these things into account.

The fact that Troika included robes and cloaks in ToEE (did it get both or just one?) should not be held against BioWare just as the lack of multiplayer in ToEE should not be held against Troika. I'm sure Troika was capable of adding multiplayer support to ToEE, but it was probably not consistent with the vision of the game given the rest of their feature set. Ditto for BioWare and cloaks / robes in NWN.

This seems pretty straightforward to me, so why is everyone arguing again?


N.
 

Ibbz

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I'd also like to point out that Bioware did Baldurs Gate 2 in 18 months. {They started around the time Tales of the sword coast was released I believe.}

That included redoing all characters/monsters and adding new ones in, New storyline,Adding multiple resoultions and support for 3D accelerators aswell as modification of certain rules and adding kits. {Plus other stuff i've probably forgotten.}
 

Volourn

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You series? 18 months? Consideirng the sheer of BG2; that's pretty amazing if true.

Shevek, it's true that many fans have asked for cloaks and robes; but it's nowhere the number asked thing. Epic levels have beenw anted more, and they are just finally adding them. Heck, subraces have been begged for yet no dice.

Also, we must remember, that Troika has also had to "cool" features too (their words not ime)... most noteably pretsige classes,a nd subraces.

The way I see it, fans never get 100% what they want. Developers have to choose what they feel is neccessary in the game - some fans tend to lose out, some fans tend to get what theyw ant.

Overall, that was a great post. Very fair, indeed.

To stir the pot, I just ahve one question: Why, oh why, didn't BIO add mirror image? I want that spell, and unlike cloaks, I most certianly feel that is a D&D staple.

:lol:
 

Diogo Ribeiro

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Bioware took 18 months to make BG2? Hmmm. Curious. Then again, what was added from BG1?

  • The areas were of higher quality in graphical terms (and there were a couple of areas which reutilized BG1 artwork).
    The background music was definetely of higher quality.
    The rules didn't change much as far as i remember.
    The animations stayed largely the same. Dwarven females still looked liked males, and Dwarves/Halflings/Gnomes still had almost no difference in avatar. The Half-Orc was a joke. What was added however, (and this is quite visible) were new monsters and respective animations.
    New items and spells. True, there were many new ones, but i doubt those were remotely difficult to add. By the time BG2 came out, BG1 already had hundreds of fanmade spells and items (i know this, i even made a handful and they're somewhere out there on some internet dark corner, which i thankfully forgot the URL :lol: ). Im not saying it didn't took work, im saying it isn't that hard to make. Anyone that used the IE programs that the IE ModTeam has released had access to plenty o'customization for items and spells.

Essentially, Bioware had an engine which they already knew how to work with, so the time they took can't be hardly considered a great achievement, if most of the work had already been made. New content, aside graphics and sound, wasn't hard to implement. Furthermore the primary problems of the IE engine weren't very well adressed. One, it still has close to no interactivity. Visual feedback, interactivity and attention to detail were not worked on. Troika's very dated Arcanum engine for all its problems, did a better job at it. Second, the pathfinding wasn't that much improved. The adding of the feature to have NPCs move out of the way was good, but it still did not help many moments where they'd just twitch and gang together instead of advancing and attacking.
 

ecliptic

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If I'm not mistaken, of the 225k lines of dialogue, 100 or 120k were reused from BG1.

I read that in a BG2 postmortem in Game Developer Magazine.
 

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