sawyer wants rpg to evolve

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

First point (builds) can be achieved by NEO Scav, This War of Mine and even STALKER with Misery mod that gives you military specialties (Recon, Assault, Sniper) to choose from.

Selecting a predefined class with certain skills is not the same thing as selecting individual stats and skills on top of the class, sorry.

Second point (Stats) is also achieved by the same games through means much simpler and more intuitive than THAC0s and desecending Armor Class.

WHY? HOW? Should we all just take your word for it? If you can allocate individual stats and skills, and make combinations, you don’t have stats.

Third point (C&C) is achieved by all the games cited, again, without the need for baroque systems.

Choosing three endings, or different ways to kill an enemy, is not what we mean by C&C in these discussions. It doesn’t even come close to reactivity. Besides, I consider NEO Scavenger as a cRPG, so I don’t understand why you include him alongside these other games.

Fourth point I don't know what you meant. Be free to elaborate if you wish.

You have three different ways to a kill a boss. Linear choice.

You can kill the boss or not (maybe you can propose an alliance, etc). Narrative choice.

So, all your criteria are achieved by the games I've cited in arguably simpler and more dynamic ways.

Because you said so? That’s a really lazy argumentation.

 

[mondblut]

Also, I agree with him that the D&D template of Stats, Classes, THAC0, etc. got pretty rote and doesn't add much for the experience of roleplaying. Again, STALKERs don't have any stats, and the experience of me as a player learning simultaneously as my character as we go through the game, made me feel more immersed than the usual "distributing points into scores on a character sheet".

^ implying that since he dropped RPGs for the sake of shooters, so must everybody else.

Muh immershun my ass.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

AoD is aight, despite the efforts of a few posters who spend all day on their knees ardently fellating it to make it appear to be more than that.

Mongoloid.

Would love to hear how one would solve the "flawed system" of pre-buffing, because that shit is not an strategic aspect of the game, just a thing you cross from a list when you want to fight

"Flawed" is the euphemism they use to describe anything casual players consider difficult. Another word is "traditional".

Also, I agree with him that the D&D template of Stats, Classes, THAC0, etc. got pretty rote and doesn't add much for the experience of roleplaying. Again, STALKERs don't have any stats, and the experience of me as a player learning simultaneously as my character as we go through the game, made me feel more immersed than the usual "distributing points into scores on a character sheet".

^ implying that he dropped RPGs for the sake of shooters, and shooters are the real RPGs.

Fixed.

 

[Master]

His favorite game is Hitman, not a proper cRPG.

Game developers aren't allowed to like game of other genres? What? If you played Blood Money you probably would realize why Josh likes it so much, it's extremely open in how to deal with situations and your assassination targets, a good feature for RPGs

Ironic, since BM is the most unbalanced game in the series.

 

[mondblut]

Which begs the question on what is the proper RPG here - the one who allows you to assume a role so well you can even take a crap as a Stalker and wipe your ass with an artifact, or the one whose total experience is resumed to progressing linearly through a story with pauses to fight on a static world?

The one which plays closer to sitting behind a table rolling dice with the Steading of Hill Giant Chief opened in the middle, of course.

But you are welcome to play the role of Master Chef in Halo, ofc.

 

[Silva]

Selecting a predefined class with certain skills is not the same thing as selecting individual stats and skills on top of the class, sorry.

So, granularity defines RPGs, now?

WHY? HOW? Should we all just take your word for it? If you can allocate individual stats and skills, and make combinations, you don’t have stats.

What? Both This War of Mine and NEo Scav has protagonists with qualities and disadvantages that dictate their interaction with the world. Even Stalker Misery has it.

Choosing three endings, or different ways to kill an enemy, is not what we mean by C&C in these discussions. It doesn’t even come close to reactivity.

STALKER reactivity is not limited to how you kill enemies. There are groups of people who react differently to you depending on how you do, talk or approach missions in the game. In fact, it has more reactivity than Baldurs Gate, which only reactivity is on pointless romance. Which one is the RPG again?

You have three different ways to a kill a boss -> Linear choice; You have the choice to not kill the boss (maybe you can propose an alliance, etc). Narrative choice.

Again, all games I cited have this.

Because you said so? That’s a really lazy argumentation.

At this point you're showing your ignorance on the matter. I suggest you study the games discussed before posting.

 

[Roguey]

Would love to hear how one would solve the "flawed system" of pre-buffing, because that shit is not an strategic aspect of the game, just a thing you cross from a list when you want to fight

In Tyranny, you could only apply a buff from one spell group each, so it didn't get unwieldy like D&D's spells. The joy of preparing for a fight without the tediousness of casting a long list of spells in just the right order.

 

[Neanderthal]

To me evolving means improving and iterating, something that modern developers rarely do. Case in point, pre buffing in the IE games was a little bit of a chore, but a logical and effective tool in your arsenal, so Obsidian decided that rather than improve a flawed system they'd simply remove it cause its too much work, and everybody cheered and said yay less features.

Would love to hear how one would solve the "flawed system" of pre-buffing, because that shit is not an strategic aspect of the game, just a thing you cross from a list when you want to fight

Me too, perhaps a game designer who gets paid to do that stuff could do so.

 

[Parabalus]

Third point (C&C) is achieved by all the games cited, again, without the need for baroque systems.

Choosing three endings, or different ways to kill an enemy, is not what we mean by C&C in these discussions. It doesn’t even come close to reactivity. Besides, I consider NEO Scavenger as a cRPG, so I don’t understand why you include him alongside these other games.

STALKER CoP has:

• multiple endings
• branching quests which lock content (C&C)
• faction reputation, including exclusive factions
• weapon/armor upgrade trees, unique to each class
• artifact system for stats
• similar amount of reactivity to IE games

No, it's not a RPG character system complex as AoD or PoE, but if nu-Beth are called RPGs, why not this?

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Selecting a predefined class with certain skills is not the same thing as selecting individual stats and skills on top of the class, sorry.

So, granularity defines RPGs, now?

If I allow a piece of Checkers to move like a Rook does it make a chess game? I don’t think so. It’s a debated issue what is the nature of cRPGs, but it is uncontroversial that the gameplay must be directly determined by character building in order to be considered a cRPG. That’s especially the case since other genres that no one would consider cRPGs tend to superficially emulate certain features of cRPGs (shallow player customisation, classes, etc.), but you can tell that they belong to other genres (and they are sold and considered by their fans as belonging to other genres) because the gameplay is not determined by that.

 

[2house2fly]

This is like saying that chess rules don't add much to the experience of playing chess. Saying that you tired of chess is not a criticism or excuse to change the whole fucking thing.

Chess is one game.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

A friend of mine who used to work in game design says that the biggest problem with roleplaying game stories is that developers mistake writing more for writing better and that other genres are better suited for interactive storytelling. What do you think

If the central narrative is meaningfully interactive, I would classify it as an RPG. That is, I consider interactive storytelling to be the primary defining characteristic of RPGs.

I don't disagree that some designers write too much, but I think that's an indictment of specific content, not the fundamentals behind the genre.

You would not consider old dungeon crawlers as RPGs, then? And do not many adventure games center around interactive storytelling?

I would consider them RPGs by the definitions of their time. If someone were to make Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord today, I would not consider it to be an RPG.

Man who considered Wizardry-likes to have been RPGs only by the "definitions of their time" has now moved on to considering Fallout-likes to have been RPGs only by the definitions of their time, as predicted by myself and many others.

Frankly, it seems that Sawyer and many other CRPG developers would rather be writing Choose Your Own Adventure books, but they know they can't make a living by doing so, and so instead have decided to subvert CRPGs.

 

[ArchAngel]

I want to say two things:
1. This explains why PoE was so bad. Its main designer wanted to actually make Skyrim instead... good thing I swore to not give any more money to these quacks.
2. So this is a topic Infinitron decided to hide in instead of posting news about a true Incline game - Disco Elysium. Shame Infinitron! Shame!

 

[luinthoron]

This guy... Making such a long speech that doesn't really say much instead of just saying he likes Disco Elysium.

 

[fantadomat]

I want to say two things:
1. This explains why PoE was so bad. Its main designer wanted to actually make Skyrim instead... good thing I swore to not give any more money to these quacks.
2. So this is a topic Infinitron decided to hide in instead of posting news about a true Incline game - Disco Elysium. Shame Infinitron! Shame!

Can you blame a jew for following the money?

Third point (C&C) is achieved by all the games cited, again, without the need for baroque systems.

Choosing three endings, or different ways to kill an enemy, is not what we mean by C&C in these discussions. It doesn’t even come close to reactivity. Besides, I consider NEO Scavenger as a cRPG, so I don’t understand why you include him alongside these other games.

STALKER CoP has:

• multiple endings
• branching quests which lock content (C&C)
• faction reputation, including exclusive factions
• weapon/armor upgrade trees, unique to each class
• artifact system for stats
• similar amount of reactivity to IE games

No, it's not a RPG character system complex as AoD or PoE, but if nu-Beth are called RPGs, why not this?

Are you saying that Fallout 4 is an rpg?!

 

[Silva]

Selecting a predefined class with certain skills is not the same thing as selecting individual stats and skills on top of the class, sorry.

So, granularity defines RPGs, now?

If I allow a piece of Checkers to move like a Rook does it make a chess game? I don’t think so. It’s a debated issue what is the nature of cRPGs, but it is uncontroversial that the gameplay must be directly determined by character building in order to be considered a cRPG. That’s especially the case since other genres that no one would consider cRPGs tend to superficially emulate certain features of cRPGs (shallow player customisation, classes, etc.), but you can tell that they belong to other genres (and they are sold and considered by their fans as belonging to other genres) because the gameplay is not determined by that.

Bro (sis?) you're too bound by form, and forgetting the essence. Any game that allows you some arguably good degree of impersonation of a role in a persistent world could be considered an RPG. Understand by "good degree" things like reactivity/C&C and freedom to interact with the world as the given role permits. It doesn't matter if there are a dozen stats or just 1. It doesnt' matter if you can create the genealogic tree of your char or if he comes pre-created. What matters is the role and the interaction with the world.

So what if Baldurs Gate offers a bazillion customization choices when it's C&C is lesser than Super Mario?

 

[2house2fly]

I want to say two things:
1. This explains why PoE was so bad. Its main designer wanted to actually make Skyrim instead... good thing I swore to not give any more money to these quacks.

You've cracked the case. Josh Sawyer wanted to make Skyrim instead of Pillars Of Eternity. That's why Pillars Of Eternity is so much like Skyrim.

 

[frajaq]

Are you saying that Fallout 4 is an rpg?!

It is

Welcome to the evolution of RPGs my friend

 

[Artyoan]

Josh seems like a numbers guy. I have a hard time believing he'd strip out character customization and builds. I think when he says rpg's can be more 'fluid' he is saying the underlying stats can be present but shoved under the hood.

He wants immersion. And he dreams of a historical rpg. I'd bet he envisions players being fully drawn into the world itself instead of looking at icons and percentages.

Might be worth asking him if he thinks Skyrim had an adequate amount of under-the-hood customization as far as combat and character building goes. Or if Skyrim + loads of C&C is enough.

 

[frajaq]

this thread is an excellent place to show his most played games on steam

 

[Roguey]

Might be worth asking him if he thinks Skyrim had an adequate amount of under-the-hood customization as far as combat and character building goes.

TheGreatOne (RIP) was fond of mocking this particular statement

The character systems that have most influenced me are the ones in Darklands, Fallout, Mass Effect, and Oblivion...they were moving toward an ideal that I believe in very strongly: a shallow learning curve that expands into thought-provoking depth.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Man who considered Wizardry-likes to have been RPGs only by the "definitions of their time" has now moved on to considering Fallout-likes to have been RPGs only by the definitions of their time, as predicted by myself and many others.

Frankly, it seems that Sawyer and many other CRPG developers would rather be writing Choose Your Own Adventure books, but they know they can't make a living by doing so, and so instead have decided to subvert CRPGs.

 

[2house2fly]

this thread is an excellent place to show his most played games on steam

It's encouraging that he's spent four times as long testing Deadfire than New Vegas

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Might be worth asking him if he thinks Skyrim had an adequate amount of under-the-hood customization as far as combat and character building goes.

TheGreatOne (RIP) was fond of mocking this particular statement

The character systems that have most influenced me are the ones in Darklands, Fallout, Mass Effect, and Oblivion...they were moving toward an ideal that I believe in very strongly: a shallow learning curve that expands into thought-provoking depth.

 

[Zed]

almost 400 hours put into DF is a pretty good sign regardless. unless he left it on while away on vacation