sawyer wants rpg to evolve

[FeelTheRads]

By the way, whose account is this?

https://twitter.com/HBJohnXuandou/status/987974357757579266

"RPG's could be something other than an RPG, but RPG fans are big meanies and don't like when we try to make them play an entirely different genre that they don't like." ~Josh Sawyer, Chief Jackass Obsidian Entertainment

if he had any balls he would @ that at sawyer

Also, I can never understand this bullshit... blaming people for not liking something. Or the concept that resisting change is a bad thing.

Who the fuck decides if that change is good or not? Do you have to accept change just because it's change? When the fuck are they going to tire of this retarded "embrace change, change is evolution herp derp"?

If I like something, why is it so hard to understand that I like it because of certain things and I might not like it if those things are removed or missing?

Assuming that if you like RPGs then you should like these "evolved" RPGs, is like saying that hey, if you like metal, you should like nu-metal too! It's still music and it has metal in the name! It's just changed, come on, try it!

 

[Saduj]

Assuming the OP accurately reflects his attitude, it really sounds like he wants to make an adventure game.

Not as he defines them.

adventure games typically don't allow you allow you to define and express your character's personality in a way that meaningfully changes the development of the story. An interactive story, to me, means more than just going through it via player input.

* Does the game allow you to develop and use tactics?
* Does the game allow you to develop and deploy a strategy?
* Does the game allow you to resolve conflicts in multiple ways?

If you answered "no" to all of the above, you're playing a "pure" adventure/puzzle game. If you answered "yes" to one or more of the above, it may be another sort of game, one that is still currently made.

Maybe not typical of the genre but apparently it has been done:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-c-c-and-multiple-solutions-to-puzzles.83010/

 

[Silva]

Don't know what the guy meant exactly, but from my part I've been getting the kick I used to get from CRPGs from other kinda games, like STALKERs, NEO Scavenger and Dark Souls for example. The later feature of disallowing reloads and forcing me to permanently accept the consequences of my choices gives me such a strong feel for being in the skin of an alter ego in another world much more strongly than, for ex. my current playthrough of PS:Torment where I know I can reload 2 seconds away and undo any mistakes.

Also, I agree with him that the D&D template of Stats, Classes, THAC0, etc. got pretty rote and doesn't add much for the experience of roleplaying. Again, STALKERs don't have any stats, and the experience of me as a player learning simultaneously as my character as we go through the game, made me feel more immersed than the usual "distributing points into scores on a character sheet".

So yeah, I think I agree with the guy.

 

[FreeKaner]

Josh is right.

This is the ultimate conclusion of everything.

 

[Once more unto the Codex]

No truce/Disco Elysium + Pathfinder: Kingmaker.... I mean even if POE2 will be shit and obsidian crash and burn we'll have banner of CRPG flying high!

Ahhh, ever this illusion...I remember when AoD/Tides of Numanuma/SitS was going to bring the incline that PoE allegedly failed to deliver.

 

[undecaf]

So, is this opening up an admittance that he's not happy with what they did with PoE games?

There certainly is room for RPG's to evolve, though, that much is right. I don't think I agree with the given examples about TES being a good example of anything else but a commercial success through lowest common denominator, and stats/systems being less important in defining the genre (it's not that they are there like they are today in many games, but about what is done with them and how). The right way should be towards greater systemic versatility, rather than visual novelification or "TES-like" immurshun sim.

Anyway, I wonder what Sawyers response will be to this apparently somewhat widespread escalation about what he said.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Don't know what the guy meant exactly, but from my part I've been getting the kick I used to get from CRPGs from other kinda games, like STALKERs, NEO Scavenger and Dark Souls for example. The later feature of disallowing reloads and forcing me to permanently accept the consequences of my choices gives me such a strong feel for being in the skin of an alter ego in another world much more strongly than, for ex. my current playthrough of PS:Torment where I know I can reload 2 seconds away and undo any mistakes.

Also, I agree with him that the D&D template of Stats, Classes, THAC0, etc. got pretty rote and doesn't add much for the experience of roleplaying. Again, STALKERs don't have any stats, and the experience of me as a player learning simultaneously as my character as we go through the game, made me feel more immersed than the usual "distributing available points into scores on a character sheet".

So yeah, I think I agree with the guy.

Fantastic story.

Except that no reloads and how immersed you are doesn't define what elements an RPG should have.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Ahhh, ever this illusion...I remember when AoD was going to bring the incline that PoE allegedly failed to deliver.

It did.

 

[fantadomat]

I see a lot of people dancing around the lion and don't have the balls to poke it. The big question is : What is an RPG?
So,what is it,an mechanic that is tied to the stats pumping or the immersions and the dialogue options?

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Don't know what the guy meant exactly, but from my part I've been getting the kick I used to get from CRPGs from other kinda games, like STALKERs, NEO Scavenger and Dark Souls for example.The later feature of disallowing reloads and forcing me to permanently accept the consequences of my choices gives me such a strong feel for being in the skin of an alter ego in another world much more strongly than, for ex. my current playthrough of PS:Torment where I know I can reload 2 seconds away and undo any mistakes.

So you don't like cRPGs and the ability to reload.

Also, I agree with him that the D&D template of Stats, Classes, THAC0, etc. got pretty rote and doesn't add much for the experience of roleplaying.

This is like saying that chess rules don't add much to the experience of playing chess. Saying that you tired of chess is not a criticism or excuse to change the whole fucking thing.

Again, STALKERs don't have any stats, and the experience of me as a player learning simultaneously as my character as we go through the game, made me feel more immersed than the usual "distributing available points into scores on a character sheet".

In other words, you prefer action games over cRPGs and you want cRPG developers to make action games an label them as cRPGs .

So yeah, I think I agree with the guy.

Of course you do.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

I see a lot of people dancing around the lion and don't have the balls to poke it. The big question is : What is an RPG?
So,what is it,an mechanic that is tied to the stats pumping or the immersions and the dialogue options?

Joined: Jun 1, 2017

There are dozens of threads about this topic, newfag.

Ahhh, ever this illusion...I remember when AoD was going to bring the incline that PoE allegedly failed to deliver.

It did.

 

[Silva]

Don't know what the guy meant exactly, but from my part I've been getting the kick I used to get from CRPGs from other kinda games, like STALKERs, NEO Scavenger and Dark Souls for example. The later feature of disallowing reloads and forcing me to permanently accept the consequences of my choices gives me such a strong feel for being in the skin of an alter ego in another world much more strongly than, for ex. my current playthrough of PS:Torment where I know I can reload 2 seconds away and undo any mistakes.

Also, I agree with him that the D&D template of Stats, Classes, THAC0, etc. got pretty rote and doesn't add much for the experience of roleplaying. Again, STALKERs don't have any stats, and the experience of me as a player learning simultaneously as my character as we go through the game, made me feel more immersed than the usual "distributing available points into scores on a character sheet".

So yeah, I think I agree with the guy.

Fantastic story.

Except that no reloads and how immersed you are doesn't define what elements an RPG should have.

I never said it did. I just said that's part of the kick that RPGs used to give to me. These days, being honest, I don't even see much value in playing CRPGs. As I said, I would rather play other genera that gimme all the immersion and C&C I want without the clutter of D&D paraphernalia or ugly UIs. This War of Mine is a great example of this - simple and coherent rules ("I'm good at Cooking"), C&C, perma-choices, immersive atmosphere, a sandbox-world for you to engage as you see fit, and nicely defined roles to play with.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Cool, then you wouldn't mind if I tell you and Sawyer to take whatever games you like to play and make and give them any name you want and stop calling them RPGs?

Or.. pardon me, evolved RPGs.

 

[frajaq]

No truce/Disco Elysium + Pathfinder: Kingmaker.... I mean even if POE2 will be shit and obsidian crash and burn we'll have banner of CRPG flying high!

Ahhh, ever this illusion...I remember when AoD/Tides of Numanuma/SitS was going to bring the incline that PoE allegedly failed to deliver.

To be fair the three games you just cited looked like shit way before their release
Disco Elysium looks impressive and Pathfinder: Kingmaker has potential, but that one its easy for the devs to fuck up

 

[Parabalus]

Again, STALKERs don't have any stats, and the experience of me as a player learning simultaneously as my character as we go through the game, made me feel more immersed than the usual "distributing points into scores on a character sheet".

STALKER has a lot of character progression in terms of Artifacts and gear though. If Skyrim is an RPG, you might as well count CoP, it even has better C&C than it.

 

[fantadomat]

Stalker is great game,but it is an rpg as much as Thief.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

These days, being honest, I don't even see much value in playing CRPGs.

So? We are discussing how cRPGs should be designed, not how to change them to attract players who don’t like them in the first place.

Other genera of games provide me with all the immersion and C&C I want.

A couple things you are ignoring with this line of reasoning:

• cRPGs allow you to try different combinations of builds, and stats/skills, and mastering the system, which is a reward on its own right. This thinking happens before the game starts, persists during the game and after the game ends. When you play, let’s say, super Mario, you just master your ability to jump from platform A to platform B.

• The point of stats and skills is to provide an explicit model of real and fictional abilities in the game world.

• The gameplay elements determined by character building in cRPGs aim to be more realistic and detailed than games from other genres, and usually provides you with more skills and variety of narrative choices than other genres.

• Narrative choices are not different ways of exploding an enemy or doing nonsensical degenerative gameplay that makes you feel free and decompress when you are burnout from work.

These are just from the top of my head.

And by the way, NEO Scavanger has character building, and has stat/skill checks, but the numbers are hidden, and This War of Mine has a nice concept but the gameplay is repetitive and gets boring really fast. The combat is boring and shallow because it revolves around timing.

 

[Silva]

Stalker is great game,but it is an rpg as much as Thief.

The fact STALKER is set on an open-world that you may engage as you see fit, and presents factions and agents that react to your choices accordingly, elevate it to a level beyond Thief in regards to "assuming a role in a fictional, interactive, world".

It's also beyond what Baldurs Gate offered in this regard, btw. Which begs the question on what is the proper RPG here - the one who allows you to assume a role so well you can even take a crap as a Stalker and wipe your ass with an artifact, or the one whose total experience is resumed to progressing linearly through a story with pauses to fight on a static world?

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

To be fair the three games you just cited looked like shit way before their release
Disco Elysium looks impressive and Pathfinder: Kingmaker has potential, but that one its easy for the devs to fuck up

Behead all the graphic whores who insult AoD.

 

[Iskramor]

http://comicbook.com/gaming/2018/04/21/pillars-of-eternity-ii-deadfire-director-vision/

P.S. Old who posted this before?

 

[Parabalus]

To be fair the three games you just cited looked like shit way before their release
Disco Elysium looks impressive and Pathfinder: Kingmaker has potential, but that one its easy for the devs to fuck up

Behead all the graphic whores who insult AoD.

AoD execute animations are a thing of beauty, can't remember any better.

 

[Neanderthal]

To me evolving means improving and iterating, something that modern developers rarely do. Case in point, pre buffing in the IE games was a little bit of a chore, but a logical and effective tool in your arsenal, so Obsidian decided that rather than improve a flawed system they'd simply remove it cause its too much work, and everybody cheered and said yay less features. Strategic aspects of rpgs, oh they could be troublesome and hard to manage for fucking retards, so lets save time and effort and once again get rid. Inventory management, a system that scales with the character, makes sense and is tied into other systems? Nah fuck that too much like hard work, infinite stash. Evolve my arse.

 

[Silva]

A couple things you are ignoring with this line of reasoning:

• cRPGs allow you to try different combinations of builds, and stats/skills, and mastering the system, which is a reward on its own right. This thinking happens before the game starts, persists during the game and after the game ends. When you play, let’s say, super Mario, you just master your ability to jump from platform A to platform B.

• The point of stats and skills is to provide an explicit model of real and fictional abilities in the game world.

• The gameplay elements determined by character building in cRPGs aim to be more realistic and detailed than games from other genres, and usually provides you with more skills and variety of narrative choices than other genres.

• Narrative choices are not different ways of exploding an enemy or doing nonsensical degenerative gameplay that makes you feel free and decompress when you are burnout from work.

These are just from the top of my head.

First point (builds) can be achieved by NEO Scav, This War of Mine and even STALKER with Misery mod that gives you military specialties (Recon, Assault, Sniper) to choose from.
Second point (Stats) is also achieved by the same games through means much simpler and more intuitive than THAC0s and desecending Armor Class.
Third point (C&C) is achieved by all the games cited, again, without the need for baroque systems.
Fourth point I don't know what you meant. Be free to elaborate if you wish.

So, all your criteria are achieved by the games I've cited in arguably simpler and more dynamic ways. And they are not formally called CRPGs.

 

[Once more unto the Codex]

AoD is aight, despite the efforts of a few posters who spend all day on their knees ardently fellating it to make it appear to be more than that.

 

[frajaq]

To me evolving means improving and iterating, something that modern developers rarely do. Case in point, pre buffing in the IE games was a little bit of a chore, but a logical and effective tool in your arsenal, so Obsidian decided that rather than improve a flawed system they'd simply remove it cause its too much work, and everybody cheered and said yay less features.

Would love to hear how one would solve the "flawed system" of pre-buffing, because that shit is not an strategic aspect of the game, just a thing you cross from a list when you want to fight