"Second best stealth game after Thief" is actually a pretty good topic for a thread.

[Silva]

So,

Splinter Cell Chaos Theory is it ?

 

[skacky]

I liked Chaos Theory because sneaking around actually required planning and skill, but the main gripe I have with this game is how linear the level design is.

 

[Lancehead]

Thief 2 is the best, Thief is second best.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Metal Gear Solid 3?

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

Splinter Cell is considered a stealth game series around here?

'Dex you disappoint me.

 

[octavius]

I must admit that I rage quite the first Splinter Cell after a short time, due to the game being extremely rail roaded and scripted (it was like playing a bizarro-Thief) so I can't really say how good the stealth is.

 

[Carrion]

Some people call Hitman a stealth game so I guess I'd go with Hitman 2 or Blood Money.

 

[AstroZombie]

I must admit that I rage quite the first Splinter Cell after a short time, due to the game being extremely rail roaded and scripted (it was like playing a bizarro-Thief) so I can't really say how good the stealth is.

Chaos Theory is a lot better than the first two SC games because its levels are bigger and more open.

 

[Ninja Destroyer]

Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory is the best in the series
Hitman, although the game is more about disguises overall
No One Lives Forever - shame that in sequel AI behaved often as cyborgs and was founding you in the dark corners of the map
Manhunt - because it's fun to make most gruesome executions

 

[DalekFlay]

I would give it to Chaos Theory, probably. No other pure stealth game is jumping into my head as better.

I don't count Hitman though, those are almost puzzle games. Death to Spies the same thing... open area, puzzle to solve, or dudes to shoot. It's not a sneaker like Thief and Splinter Cell. And even if you do consider them stealth games I still think I enjoyed Chaos Theory more anyway (though none of the other Splinter Cells are that good).

I tend to play Deus Ex and games like it as stealth games, but I don't think they count. If they did Deus Ex would be better than Thief

 

[Nryn]

Chaos theory had some very memorable levels like the Bank, and it also had some entertaining soldier banter -- I did a playthrough where I tried taking every guard hostage just to listen to their often hilarious dialogue. Fantastic music as well.

That said, I prefer the Commandos series and the Hitman games over Chaos Theory though. Apart from those, the Death to Spies games are pretty solid at taking the social stealth aspect of Hitman and combining it with larger levels and challenging stealth based around field of vision.

 

[Ninjerk]

Metal Gear Solid 3?

European Extreme. If anyone sees you, game over.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Splinter Cell is considered a stealth game series around here?

'Dex you disappoint me.

Well, if even Splinter Cell doesn't qualify, that leaves Thief and...?

 

[DalekFlay]

Well, if even Splinter Cell doesn't qualify, that leaves Thief and...?

Velvet Assassin!

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

Dishonored is a better stealth game than Splinter Cell.

But in terms of pure stealth, there's only Thief and Thief II.

 

[tuluse]

Guys you forgot Syphon Filter

Spoiler

 

[Roguey]

~Josh Sawyer~ considers Chaos Theory to be the best stealth game ever. He doesn't like fpp.
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/48339-josh-is-the-creative-leadlead-designer-now/page-2#entry813448

Melee combat can feel bad in any perspective if it isn't executed properly. I don't think that the best 1st person melee games (DMoMM, Riddick, Oblivion) hold up against the best 3rd person melee games (DMC3, Ninja Gaiden, God of War) in terms of that gameplay.

I enjoyed the stealth in Splinter Cell even more than the stealth in Thief. Not because the stealth mechanics were necessarily better, but because Sam has a lot of opportunities to interact with the environment and characters in a way that's very satisfying to see in third person.

Fuuuuuuuuuurthermore http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/35806-story-in-games/page-5#entry406480

In my opinion, all three Splinter Cell games were more well-executed and polished than any of the Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Fallout, or Neverwinter titles. They have a small scope, but UbiSoft (both Montreal and Shanghai) accomplished what was within that scope extremely well. They are games that require planning and dexterity, often have multiple paths to completion, and have detailed stories with well-written dialogue and great voice acting.

They do all this while maintaining a relatively simple control scheme and appealing to the "average gamer". Learning to play Splinter Cell, how to use your tools, is pretty easy. Playing Splinter Cell can be very challenging because it requires observation, patience, planning, and dexterity. The single player component of all three titles is relatively short. Maybe 15-20 hours, on average. The multiplayer components in Pandora Tomorrow and Chaos Theory were not only well-executed, but they were very innovative.

You can make a game that targets the "average gamer" and succeeds while still being mentally challenging and innovative. You can also do this with sequels.

I've never played it though. It's on my list of things to consider.

 

[DalekFlay]

I dislike the idea that God of War combat is "better" than Dark Messiah combat. I would say more "entirely different" than "better."

 

[Infinitron]

@Roguey Josh has a point, if he's looking purely at stealth mechanics. But Thief isn't just a "stealth game". It's a stealth game which is also an "immersive first person exploration game". These two elements feed into one another.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Dishonored is a better stealth game than Splinter Cell.

But in terms of pure stealth, there's only Thief and Thief II.

Awesome, a genre where only one game fits. We won't have to worry about defining it, unlike with RPGs.

 

[Carrion]

~Josh Sawyer~ considers Chaos Theory to be the best stealth game ever. He doesn't like fpp.
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/48339-josh-is-the-creative-leadlead-designer-now/page-2#entry813448

Melee combat can feel bad in any perspective if it isn't executed properly. I don't think that the best 1st person melee games (DMoMM, Riddick, Oblivion) hold up against the best 3rd person melee games (DMC3, Ninja Gaiden, God of War) in terms of that gameplay.

I enjoyed the stealth in Splinter Cell even more than the stealth in Thief. Not because the stealth mechanics were necessarily better, but because Sam has a lot of opportunities to interact with the environment and characters in a way that's very satisfying to see in third person.

The argument basically comes down to "it looks nicer", because otherwise it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Splinter Cells lets you do some things that aren't possible in Thief, but in terms of environmental interaction it's hardly better. Sam Fisher can do a couple of neat acrobatic tricks whereas Garrett can shoot a rope arrow into the ceiling. Fisher shoots out the lights with his pistol, Garrett extinguishes a torch with a water arrow (okay, Fisher may have a wider range of gadgets to use but arrows are just awesome, okay?) Fisher throws around bottles to distract guards, Garrett throws around whatever the hell he pleases. Arguably Thief's more open level design makes this kind of interaction more meaningful as a lot of this stuff in Splinter Cell is at least somewhat contextual or scripted. Third-person perspective also allows you to see around corners with no risk of exposing yourself, which kind of completely sucks in a stealth game.

I also don't see what melee combat has to do with anything, but I'll still take the liberty to point and laugh at him for mentioning Oblivion.

 

[Roguey]

Third-person perspective also allows you to see around corners with no risk of exposing yourself, which kind of completely sucks in a stealth game.

That is actually pretty damn vital for a stealth game to not be shit.
http://spring.me/JESawyer/q/235142729137391136
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http://spring.me/JESawyer/q/235163571753856262
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I also don't see what melee combat has to do with anything, but I'll still take the liberty to point and laugh at him for mentioning Oblivion.

You could always read the thread for context. Anyway, its melee combat is still better'n the likes of Morrowind, Daggerfall, Ultima Underworld et al though I'm sure Josh now believes that Skyrim surpasses it.

 

[Infinitron]

That is actually pretty damn vital for a stealth game to not be shit.
http://spring.me/JESawyer/q/235163571753856262

Except for Thief, where it's okay, according to Sawyer. Why put words in the man's mouth?

In any case, applying gamist principles to stealth is bound to be controversial, but I can see how Splinter Cell is better at forcing you to use your tools, whereas in Thief they're more like optional conveniences. Sawyer probably analyzes game systems according to the minimum they demand the player actually do

 

[Roguey]

That is actually pretty damn vital for a stealth game to not be shit.
http://spring.me/JESawyer/q/235163571753856262

Except for Thief, where it's okay, according to Sawyer. Why put words in the man's mouth?

In Thief, their equivalent to being able to peer around corners was being able to observe from darkness. Most corners and approaches were darkened to allow players to move to a position from which they could observe guard patterns with effectively no fear of detection. Much like Deus Ex and Splinter Cell and various other games with good stealth mechanics, the guards follow extremely regular patrol patterns so players can patiently memorize them and either evade or stalk their way forward.

Slightly different thing, same outcome.

 

[Infinitron]

That is actually pretty damn vital for a stealth game to not be shit.
http://spring.me/JESawyer/q/235163571753856262

Except for Thief, where it's okay, according to Sawyer. Why put words in the man's mouth?

In Thief, their equivalent to being able to peer around corners was being able to observe from darkness. Most corners and approaches were darkened to allow players to move to a position from which they could observe guard patterns with effectively no fear of detection. Much like Deus Ex and Splinter Cell and various other games with good stealth mechanics, the guards follow extremely regular patrol patterns so players can patiently memorize them and either evade or stalk their way forward.

Slightly different thing, same outcome.

It's not the same because when you don't have the third person corner-popamole thing, there's still an impression (which may or may not be real) that you might be seen if the guard gets too close, or if that particular corner isn't dark enough.

Sawyer tends to think in terms of systems, generalities and hard rules and I'm afraid it may sometimes prevent him from understanding how people actually approach situations in games that are not as heavily abstracted as RPGs