Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (new From Software game)

[Black Angel]

The boss rush update is out. Man, I spent the last 3 hours fighting the Sword Saint. Haven't win yet, but the blood boiling and the adrenaline rush felt good.

 

[Tyrr]

Already unlocked the best skin.

 

[Ash]

So is this game worth 60 euros? Where does it rank in the souls series?.

My Lineup

Top Tier: DS1, DS2
Secondary: Sekiro
Last place (still good games): DS3, Bloodborne

 

[Silva]

DS2 better than Bloodborne?

 

[Vyadhis]

So is this game worth 60 euros? Where does it rank in the souls series?.

My Lineup

Top Tier: DS1, DS2
Secondary: Sekiro
Last place (still good games): DS3, Bloodborne

I disagree somewhat with your list but its refreshing to see someone not whining about Dark Souls II. I really enjoyed the game and thought it had a great atmosphere, which is what drove me to the series (Demons Souls) in the first place. The forest with the blair witch style noises and stuff was top notch.

 

[Multidirectional]

Plenty of us here who love Dark Souls II. It's my most replayed Dark Souls at this point.

 

[Hassar]

So is this game worth 60 euros? Where does it rank in the souls series?.

My Lineup

Top Tier: DS1, DS2
Secondary: Sekiro
Last place (still good games): DS3, Bloodborne

This is personal preference but I’d say Sekiro isn’t worth 60 euro up front - I would recommend trying to get it on sale.

I’d also put Dark Souls 1 and Bloodborne at the top of any list of modern FromSoft games. I keep coming back to those games years later and got hundreds of hours of replay value from them while I uninstalled Sekiro as soon as I beat it and get bored playing through Dark Souls 3 for some reason. Dark Souls 2 is OK.

Dark Souls 1 and Bloodborne really did a good job maintaining a story-focused action RPGish game with evocative settings. Sekiro is more of an action game so it’s not uncommon for people to realize they aren’t enjoying playing it and then realize in retrospect that it’s an entirely different game type and philosophy from DS. If you buy it thinking it will be in the vein of Dark Souls, you may be disappointed. If you treat it as its own thing with an open mind and no expectations (especially leaving yourself open to just admitting you don’t like it if it doesn’t click with you for whatever reason) you may find it very fun. YMMV.

 

[Ash]

Bloodborne is what PS4 gamers like to pretend is amazing to trick themselves and their peers that purchasing a PS4 was a worthy investment



It's a good game but I was pretty disappointed with the dumbed down RPG systems and oftentimes bland level design (art style was really good though -- probably best of FROM).
Blood vial system was also shit. No multiplayer also. Gameplaywise if they're removing stuff, they better add meaningful things in its place. This is what Sekiro did. All the verticality and platforming, parry/stagger system, prosthetics, stealth even if basic, grapple hook and more.
BB just felt like Dark Souls 0.75 gameplay-wise.

Now DS2 is the opposite: added more systemic depth to the DS formula, while still (mostly) retaining what made DS1 great. All its innovations were minor but numerous. DS3 just felt mostly like DS1 but with sometimes disappointing level design.

 

[Ash]

Also Sekiro would also be top tier if the level design was consistently good. It suffers from DS3/Bloodborne syndrome: some really good levels, others a little disappointing and some even bordering mediocre. I would overlook the brutally hard bosses the game barely prepares you for, and the lack of RPG systems, and consider it a top tier GOAT game if its level design was consistently Senpou Temple/Ashina Outskirts/fountainhead palace-tier. It came so close to greatness.

 

[Multidirectional]

You prepare for bosses by dying to them over and over. I can do most of them on first try now. And that's with Demon Bell enabled.

 

[Lutte]

Bloodborne is what PS4 gamers like to pretend is amazing to trick themselves and their peers that purchasing a PS4 was a worthy investment



It's a good game but I was pretty disappointed with the dumbed down RPG systems and oftentimes bland level design (art style was really good though -- probably best of FROM).
Blood vial system was also shit. No multiplayer also. Gameplaywise if they're removing stuff, they better add meaningful things in its place. This is what Sekiro did. All the verticality and platforming, parry/stagger system, prosthetics, stealth even if basic, grapple hook and more.
BB just felt like Dark Souls 0.75 gameplay-wise.

Now DS2 is the opposite: added more systemic depth to the DS formula, while still (mostly) retaining what made DS1 great. All its innovations were minor but numerous. DS3 just felt mostly like DS1 but with sometimes disappointing level design.

I feel you are looking at the games like a checklist and discounting execution. BB doesn't have much gameplay innovation (though, I really like the way some of the more unique weapons work, or how many boss encounters feel more reactive by how they get 'broken up' when you focus on specific body parts) but it certainly doesn't have as many weak parts, level wise, as DS1, the average quality of boss fight is up (DS1 has a lot of really mediocre encounters, and so does DS2, both of which have stronger qualities in their respective DLC) and it is the only game in the series that features a convincing foresty area (compare how mazey the forbidden woods are to really basic designs like Darkroot Garden, which I consider one of the shittier DS1 levels)
BB is easily a top hit for me among all From games and I'm no ps4 fanboy - I played it on psnow, latency warts and video compression artifacts and all. I wish it would come to PC so hard, so that I could replay it in actually worthy conditions.
I like both BB and DS2 equally, for different reasons and qualities they have. I'm actually least fond of DS1, whose post Sen's parts just don't jive with me. The gimmicks of levels like the dark catacombs, or the constant onslaught of same ghost encounters which go past walls in New Londo just don't jive with me well. Anor Londo has the one memed memorable archer encounter, and not much else to it past the exploration gimmick of going into areas you'd think you wouldn't initially. As for all the demon related areas, they are universally recognized as absolute garbage. Duke's Archives is alright though. I struggle to find the motivation to finish a DS1 playthrough after starting one, while I've replayed DS2 and DS3 enough to do moderate (no WR style) speedruns of them.

Aside from lore related stuff, I don't see much of a relationship between DS3 and DS1 either. DS3, as you said, has very disappointing level design, while it has some of the greatest boss encounters of the series and the most problematic build variety. I find most DS3 levels to be boring but the boss encounters managed to make me want to replay the game many times which I did just skipping most level content and beelining straight for bosses. Probably the easiest game to do this for too, for DS3 has no areas that require a particular level of attention to skip mobs and get to bosses safely (painted world of ariandel is the closest to being challenging to run through, but it's still no SOTFS iron keep or amana)

I think of Sekiro as an even more polarized DS3. Even less variety of gameplay, even higher quality of bosses, level design that is so boring and safe (your character movement just makes things like stealth utterly useless aside from getting a free hit on minibosses) traversing the world doesn't even really count as gameplay.

Sekiro is more of an action game so it’s not uncommon for people to realize they aren’t enjoying playing it and then realize in retrospect that it’s an entirely different game type and philosophy from DS. If you buy it thinking it will be in the vein of Dark Souls, you may be disappointed

Even as an action game, it's not exactly without fault. The boss encounters are top notch, but it's not like From meant for the rest of the game to be meaningless, but it very much feels like it is. It's not a constant stream of quality gameplay the way other action games can be, it's no ninja gaiden or DMC, the gameplay outside of the hard moments are absolute boredom inducing.

 

[Ash]

I feel you are looking at the games like a checklist and discounting execution.

I do not, but I can see how my post may read like that.

BB doesn't have much gameplay innovation (though, I really like the way some of the more unique weapons work, or how many boss encounters feel more reactive by how they get 'broken up' when you focus on specific body parts) but it certainly doesn't have as many weak parts, level wise, as DS1, the average quality of boss fight is up (DS1 has a lot of really mediocre encounters, and so does DS2, both of which have stronger qualities in their respective DLC) and it is the only game in the series that features a convincing foresty area (compare how mazey the forbidden woods are to really basic designs like Darkroot Garden, which I consider one of the shittier DS1 levels)

BB level design really let me down. The final level, what should be the climax of the game?

-Reshashed theme from previous level.
-Rehashed art assets from previous levels
-Barely any combat challenge around. Rehashed dog birds that pose no threat.
-Level design that's barely testing at all.

that's memphis nightmare.

There's a few good locations but also plenty bland simplistic ones. Also few standout WOW locations.

I'll agree with you the foresty location in BB is one of the better levels in the game. It's one of few that is great though. It's probably where one should just stop playing. I remember it being all downhill from there.

BB is easily a top hit for me among all From games and I'm no ps4 fanboy - I played it on psnow, latency warts and video compression artifacts and all. I wish it would come to PC so hard, so that I could replay it in actually worthy conditions.
I like both BB and DS2 equally, for different reasons and qualities they have. I'm actually least fond of DS1, whose post Sen's parts just don't jive with me. The gimmicks of levels like the dark catacombs, or the constant onslaught of same ghost encounters which go past walls in New Londo just don't jive with me well. Anor Londo has the one memed memorable archer encounter, and not much else to it past the exploration gimmick of going into areas you'd think you wouldn't initially. As for all the demon related areas, they are universally recognized as absolute garbage. Duke's Archives is alright though. I struggle to find the motivation to finish a DS1 playthrough after starting one, while I've replayed DS2 and DS3 enough to do moderate (no WR style) speedruns of them.

While DS1 later levels don't hit the same high notes as earlier levels, I still like them. Even Demon ruins. It's unique to the rest of the game thematically, has some PITA enemies (capra reskins or the numerous enemies that degrade equipment), hazardous to navigate, somewhat vast and sprawling relative to most other levels...bed of chaos sucks no disagreement there though.
the catacombs is also great (providing you save it as a late-game area and don't try and tackle it early). Tomb of the giants, yeah it's not great, but I still appreciate attempts to shake up the gameplay with some darkness even if it's not executed that well.
The ghost place, again appreciate attempts to shake it up. Could have been better but I still like it.
Duke's Archives is iconic but again not without flaw, nor things to appreciate.

Aside from lore related stuff, I don't see much of a relationship between DS3 and DS1 either. DS3, as you said, has very disappointing level design, while it has some of the greatest boss encounters of the series and the most problematic build variety. I find most DS3 levels to be boring but the boss encounters managed to make me want to replay the game many times which I did just skipping most level content and beelining straight for bosses. Probably the easiest game to do this for too, for DS3 has no areas that require a particular level of attention to skip mobs and get to bosses safely (painted world of ariandel is the closest to being challenging to run through, but it's still no SOTFS iron keep or amana)

DS3 feels like DS1 to me regarding mechanics and systems. They disregarded all the innovations from DS2 and rolled it back nearly equivalent to 1. Then on top of that it's quite rehash-happy with DS1 level design concepts and art assets, though I don't mind some rehashing it feels a bit uninspired and even boring (sometimes). there's still some pretty great designs though and it's never bad.

 

[Vyadhis]

I've got to say I love all these games on different levels from "hey its pretty good/great" to "Amazing masterpiece" but Bloodborne for me was the closest the series got to Demons Souls level of atmosphere. To this day the tower of latria and valley of defilement stick with me so damn hard. Everything since has at peak gotten close but just not there. Lots of people rave about DeS but its sooo underrated compared to the rest of the series (besides 2). I was watching some neckbeard review Sekiro (Completionist?) and he said "STARTING WITH DARK SOULS...THIS SERIES.." and I wanted to strangle his soy looking ass. Thing is I know he's going to jump on that Demons Souls remake gravy train and suddenly say how great the ps3 version was.


Also: I beat Genichiro today so that puts me above that pussy Yahtzee.

 

[Suicidal]

Even as an action game, it's not exactly without fault. The boss encounters are top notch, but it's not like From meant for the rest of the game to be meaningless, but it very much feels like it is. It's not a constant stream of quality gameplay the way other action games can be, it's no ninja gaiden or DMC, the gameplay outside of the hard moments are absolute boredom inducing.

As someone who bought and played Sekiro at launch and loved every minute of it, I absolutely agree with this statement.

Yesterday I decided to go through my Steam games and see if I have any useless shit installed to free up my disk space. I found Sekiro still installed (I probably thought there was gonna be DLC for it so I decided to leave it after finishing) and decided to try out the boss rush mode.

It was a lot of fun. I beat the shortest gauntlet (horse man -> ninja granny -> edgy samurai) and then played through the second one and unlocked the empowered version of the final boss and beat him separately (didn't beat the gauntlet). I enjoyed it greatly - he had a lot of new moves and it was fun learning the boss all over again. Then I read that if you do the evil ending (where you ally with your dad), you unlock another boss rush with the empowered version of the memory fight with your dad. That was my favorite boss in the game and I decided to start NG+ and just rush through the game to get the evil ending.

I got bored pretty quickly. On a repeat play through, Sekiro really does feel pointless. The regular mobs and mini bosses offer no challenge and just die in a few hits, a lot of the enemies are just small variations on generic foot soldier, there's nothing to work towards - at that point you've already maxed out everything you need, there's no gear to find and improve and once you get decently good at the combat system (can consistently execute parries and jump over the red swipe attacks) there's nowhere to go from there. I uninstalled the game shortly afterwards.

I think that Nioh has a much better moment-to-moment gameplay than Sekiro, outside of boss fights. There's much more variety and depth to the combat system, much higher skill ceiling if you're the type that likes to go for the autistic mastery of things, the regular enemies are more dangerous and have much better move sets, there's an option to min-max gear and builds and the game gives you more shit to do even in the late cycles of new game+.

I still think Sekiro is a great game, but I really can't understand how some people can play it all the way to NG +7 or whatever the highest one is.

 

[Matador]

Nowadays a lot of people hold the erroneous view that if a game can't be played for +1000 hours is bad. Just move on to another game or activity if you are tired with the current one.

This trend makes devs introduce crappy RNG systems (loot, quests,etc) to artificially extend the gametime affecting game design for the worse.

Replay value is a good thing, but just another factor in the quality of the game, not the decisive and necessary factor.

 

[Multidirectional]

I still think Sekiro is a great game, but I really can't understand how some people can play it all the way to NG +7 or whatever the highest one is.

I did NG+ once just for the evil ending and never tried it again. Sekiro to me is most fun when starting fresh save, with Demon Bell on and using Spirit Emblem Capacity mod.

 

[Black Angel]

This is personal preference but I’d say Sekiro isn’t worth 60 euro up front - I would recommend trying to get it on sale.

While I agree with the rest of your post here, to me Sekiro is worth every dime of its full price. Obviously, this is just my opinion, in that you'd need to set your expectation beforehand and drop whatever it is you'd normally expect from FromSoft's usual dark fantasy Action-RPGs stuffs. You can't even blame From/Activision with their marketing because gameplay teasers were everywhere as usual, and the moment I get that there's no stamina and, instead, there's the posture mechanic and how parrying does *not* instantly open up enemies to a critical strike/riposte, I knew it'd be completely different thing compared to the stuff they've made in the past years.

I also agree that Sekiro wasn't greatly replayable, in regards to especially content when compared to Soulsborne, simply because Sekiro is a full-fledged Action game with very trivial RPG mechanics attached. Still, I had a lot of fun playing around with the new exploration mechanics they finally implemented in there (ACTUAL jumping AND stealth mechanics, with proper corresponding buttons instead of the usual convoluted means of doing it like in Soulsborne, complete with those both interwoven to one another), but even that didn't last after a couple of playthroughs, simply because it couldn't compare to Dark Souls 1 and Bloodborne in terms of level-to-world design, and also when it comes to the amount of options to be had when exploring new areas.

By virtue of fun factor in regards to moment-to-moment gameplay, which is combat, however, Sekiro is very, VERY replayably fun for me. It's just so satisfying to listen to each and every CLANG sounds the game made when I properly deflected enemies attack. And the recent boss rush updates just made it easier for me to just get straight into what I really, actually cared about from this game: the boss fights. Fighting against bosses in Sekiro never, NEVER gets old for me. I'm still at a point where I'm trying to pull off no damage attempts to the best of my ability, but I know past that point I would like to try using the different combat arts + prosthetics + items combination. Just look at ONGBAL on Youtube and how he completely milked this game's bossfights to this day.

 

[Hassar]

This is personal preference but I’d say Sekiro isn’t worth 60 euro up front - I would recommend trying to get it on sale.

While I agree with the rest of your post here, to me Sekiro is worth every dime of its full price. Obviously, this is just my opinion, in that you'd need to set your expectation beforehand and drop whatever it is you'd normally expect from FromSoft's usual dark fantasy Action-RPGs stuffs. You can't even blame From/Activision with their marketing because gameplay teasers were everywhere as usual, and the moment I get that there's no stamina and, instead, there's the posture mechanic and how parrying does *not* instantly open up enemies to a critical strike/riposte, I knew it'd be completely different thing compared to the stuff they've made in the past years.

I also agree that Sekiro wasn't greatly replayable, in regards to especially content when compared to Soulsborne, simply because Sekiro is a full-fledged Action game with very trivial RPG mechanics attached. Still, I had a lot of fun playing around with the new exploration mechanics they finally implemented in there (ACTUAL jumping AND stealth mechanics, with proper corresponding buttons instead of the usual convoluted means of doing it like in Soulsborne, complete with those both interwoven to one another), but even that didn't last after a couple of playthroughs, simply because it couldn't compare to Dark Souls 1 and Bloodborne in terms of level-to-world design, and also when it comes to the amount of options to be had when exploring new areas.

By virtue of fun factor in regards to moment-to-moment gameplay, which is combat, however, Sekiro is very, VERY replayably fun for me. It's just so satisfying to listen to each and every CLANG sounds the game made when I properly deflected enemies attack. And the recent boss rush updates just made it easier for me to just get straight into what I really, actually cared about from this game: the boss fights. Fighting against bosses in Sekiro never, NEVER gets old for me. I'm still at a point where I'm trying to pull off no damage attempts to the best of my ability, but I know past that point I would like to try using the different combat arts + prosthetics + items combination. Just look at ONGBAL on Youtube and how he completely milked this game's bossfights to this day.

Yes, this is why I tell people to try it out first or get it used. I purchased it as soon as it was released but didn’t like it. I respected what From was doing but it wasn’t my style at all and playing it felt like a slog. Definitely an individual thing and completely ok to like this game but due to its overall replayability, you may be able to find a used copy fairly easily.

 

[Black Angel]

but due to its overall replayability, you may be able to find a used copy fairly easily.

I'm not entirely sure what's the relation between overall replayability and pricing, but I guess it's also personal preference.

 

[Hassar]

By

but due to its overall replayability, you may be able to find a used copy fairly easily.

I'm not entirely sure what's the relation between overall replayability and pricing, but I guess it's also personal preference.

One argument for paying the full sticker price is when you get “hundreds of hours of replayabilitity” as contrasted with a game that you play once. You could pay the full price if you wanted but to support the developers, though.

 

[Black Angel]

One argument for paying the full sticker price is when you get “hundreds of hours of replayabilitity” as contrasted with a game that you play once. You could pay the full price if you wanted but to support the developers, though.

Right, that's indeed a personal preference, because I know I can replay Sekiro multiple times and get my fun. In fact, I did, and would do into foreseeable future.

Still, there's also the fact that this game has completely different fundamentals compared to FromSoft's past, recent products, in addition to completely new mechanics not existing before such as actual jumping and stealth mechanics.

Anyway, I just beat Sword Saint Isshin twice today. I might be addicted to the adrenaline rush and blood boiling at this point.

Also, has anybody tried doing the Gauntlet of Strength? The new moves some bosses has there are very slick

Spoiler

 

[Vyadhis]

Anyone have any tips for Great shinobi owl? I'm punishing his overhead strike and the anti-heal bomb thing but the first phase feels like it drags on forever yet if I try getting super aggressive I make even more mistakes and die faster.

 

[Great Deceiver]

I played this for a bit on release then dropped it for whatever reason after the snake part. I decided to play it again and I think the reason I stopped playing in the first place is that the gameplay really isn't doing it for me. I just can't get into the rhythm. It feels spammy and imprecise, maybe my habits from other FROM games are just too hammered in for me to enjoy it.

People compare it to Souls, but I can find only superficial similarities. I would expect to really like a more aggressive version of Souls, but this just feels strange and the combat feedback is very ambiguous - I never know if something is connecting or not. I've put in some 5-6 hours after the initial 10 or so I had played at first, and I don't think this is every going to click for me.

 

[Ivan]

the first phase feels like it drags on forever

that whining, get rid of it, focus on the fight, hone your concentration and you will be fine

 

[Vyadhis]

the first phase feels like it drags on forever

that whining, get rid of it, focus on the fight, hone your concentration and you will be fine

I beat him awhile back, you were right. Got past Corrupt Monk and now I'm at Fountainhead Palace!