Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (new From Software game)

[Jedi Master Radek]

I think there is a difference in how the game plays and how it feels playing like. I think that people who say Sekiro is a rhythm game just want to say the game makes them feel like they are playing a rhythm game. Maybe it is better to think how some design decision contribute towards this feeling rather than debunk it. The combat does feel very dance like and elegant, so I can understand how someone can see a rhythm there. Maybe Kanji attack warnings also kinda function like UI elements in a rhythm game would?

 

[Matador]

This game has some of the best boss fights in any action game ever. Boss quality is exceptional overall.

Rhythm game troll meme is absurd if you have played it.

For me is a top 3 From Software game.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I've never understood the "Sekiro is a rhythm game" criticism.

I wouldn't have even assumed it was a criticism unless someone told me that it was.

I always thought a rhythm game meant if you are playing well it's like you are actually dancing with the boss. It's exilarating when you get to that level. That's one of the reasons i always tried to avoid getting hit (which even if the damage is low kinda ruins it) and i also hate "empty" spaces, parts where you aren't actually "dancing" with the moveset of the boss anymore and feel like idle or wasted moments.

If the idea is that you can just train your fingers like a monkey, first of all, that's ignoring the whole aspect of figuring out the patterns and learning when or how to do what which is a huge part of why the combat is hard at first but "easy" once you know what is happening, but it also ignores the fact that criticism works for every action game or any game that has ever existed period. It's also a criticism you can lay against real life combat, since what do you think fighters do, if not train against established techniques and patterns when they aren't training to perform them?

And then, when you get to games like Elden Ring, which tried to add a degree of indterminacy to how the bosses move, people ended up bitching the difficulty is bullshit because now bosses can cancel combos and mix up attacks on the fly. So i guess they wanted a rhythm game after all, right?

 

[Anonona]

I think the issue is that Sekiro in reality does the bare minimun for an action game. All action games worth their salt have the "dance". What they also usually have is a wide array of options to allow for player expression and combat depth, both which Sekiro kind of lacks. Also the fact that certain options are usually so much better than others in specific situations instead of having balanced pros and cons, coupled with some restricting designs, usually railroads players into responding in a certain way in every kind of situation (Dodge grabs, Mikiri counter thrusts, use a certain ninja tool, parry the rest). Also the way it is designed there isn't much in in the way of discovering how to deal with attacks; the "best" response is usually obvious and you only need to practice your timing, ergo the comparisons with rhythm games.

There are exceptions where you can choose to dodge or use a weapon art or ninja tool in a novel way, and sometimes even better than the conventional option, but they are still quite limited and doesn't require much exploring of the games mechanics.

And then, when you get to games like Elden Ring, which tried to add a degree of indterminacy to how the bosses move, people ended up bitching the difficulty is bullshit because now bosses can cancel combos and mix up attacks on the fly. So i guess they wanted a rhythm game after all, right?

Quite reductive. People complain manly that the design of bosses isn't suited for the players moveset and the game balance. Depending on playstyles and builds, a lot of boss fights, specially endgame, consist of either the player having to dodge/block long chain of attacks with small openings that feel very unrewarding and unfun (which sucks because they actually managed to made defending fun and rewarding in Sekiro thanks to the posture and deflect system), or stomping the boss without even having to deal with its mechanics.

Also I would say that bosses don't really have that much indeterminancy in ER. At best they may have a couple of combo routes and respond to the player healing or casting a spell, but they are very predictible and repetitive. Games with true cases of indeterminancy would probably be God Hand and Ninja Gaiden 1/2, where in both games you have to learn to hit confirm and use things like quick jabs/slash to see how the enemy react and then decide your next course of action, and defensivelly the bosses are a lot more deep and interesting. In case of God Hand it almost reward being able to guess what the enemy will do due to the counter system of that game.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

This game has some of the best boss fights in any action game ever. Boss quality is exceptional overall.

Rhythm game troll meme is absurd if you have played it.

For me is a top 3 From Software game.

This and Armored Core VI have the two best combat systems in their output.
Given that they come from the same combat designer, I'd say the man definitely knows what he's doing.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Also I would say that bosses don't really have that much indeterminancy in ER. At best they may have a couple of combo routes and respond to the player healing or casting a spell, but they are very predictible and repetitive.

They are predictable in the same way perilous attacks are predictable in Sekiro. Which is to say, yes, very, but also not really. I can't count the times in Sekiro i did a Mikiri instead of a jump stomp, and a jump stomp instead of a Mikiri, and i think most of you have as well.

Elden Ring for me feels very similar with the bosses having their combos being "decoupled" from any particular set structure or sequence. The fact the boss can launch into any combo at any point means you have to train yourself to be ready for each at a drop of a hat. It's not impossible to do, but it can take a long time to master, more time than some people are willing to commit. As for healing and attacking, there are determined times you can do that which i'm afraid cannot be deviated from, but generally speaking if one is possible the other is possible as well, meaning if you have a window of opportunity to deal damage you can often use that time to heal yourself. What you CANNOT do is heal whenever you want to heal, or deal damage whenever you want to deal damage. There windows of oppurtunities you have to discover which can change depending on your playstyle.

In terms of this "rythmn" game argument, it would be like you are playing dance dance revolution, except sections of the songs are broken up and can shift and play randomly at any point. You still have to train to hit the right button and the right time (it's a bit more complicated than that in Elden Ring, since there's a lot of things to consider, the posture damage, the fact heavier weapons can stagger a boss but not lighter weapons etc), but the sequence is random. So it's a rythmn game except the song is broken up in pieces and the parts all play at random following no rule.

Sekiro too of course has a lot of this as well.

The idea that you are just mindlessly perfoming a specific series of actions you can just learn by rote with your brain shut off is utter nonsense. Everything is dynamic, everything requires you to be on your feet and in many cases figuring out what you are supposed to do isn't exactly easy.

 

[Anonona]

In terms of this "rythmn" game argument, it would be like you are playing dance dance revolution, except sections of the songs are broken up and can shift and play randomly at any point

Not a bad analogy. I like to compare Sekiro more with things like Ninja Gaiden in SNES. Both games are rather simple but challenging, specially first time playing. But once you find the "rythm" of a level/boss, it is really fun and satisfying and you can plow through it fast. Of course, SNES' NGs are platform and Sekiro is an action game, so the comparison is a bit wonky, but in terms of design, satisfaction and what it expects of the players, I find them surprisingly similar.

Sekiro's strength I think lies more in the fact that it manages to recapture the fun and essence of older games; it is simple but challenging. You can pick it and play and have a fun time from start to finish without having to spend too much time relearning mechanics, as the meat of the game lies more on the enemies and the levels. While I would had liked it to dare to be less restrictive with its design, I think it does have a kind of virtue on its own. It is also a whole package deal: level, art direction and it has kind of a sense of adventure.

 

[Lyric Suite]

This game has some of the best boss fights in any action game ever. Boss quality is exceptional overall.

There are three aspects that make Sekiro for me.

First, is that the attack patterns of the bosses are fairly sophisticated, requiring a good deal of visual/spatial IQ to see "through" in some cases getting quite esoteric or avant-guard (I.E., Headless). They are also always creative and never feel like they are constantly falling on cliches.

Second, it feels incredibly satisfying to engage in them. Not just the gameplay mechanic itself, but even the animations are on point, and sound effects are meaty and sweet on the hears. The clank the sword makes when you make a deflection. Whenever Sekiro just plants his sword in the ground to be able to withstand an heavy attack is just so satifying.

Third, the general aesthetic of the game. Solid, grounded, and fairly serious from an artistic point of view if i may so. Bosses have character and charisma. The way Isshin looks and moves just oozes bad assery. Even Sekiro himself is bad ass looking.

Those elements all converging toghether make the game one of the best action games i've ever played.

 

[Multidirectional]

Yeah Sekiro might not have amazing mechanical depth in combat but it sure feels satisfying to play. Game is just a great overall package.

First, is that the attack patterns of the bosses are fairly sophisticated, requiring a good deal of visual/spatial IQ to see "through"

Even I managed to see through them, eventually, so I don't know if they are that sophisticated. I'm not exactly a hardcore action gamer. Just an average enjoyer, if I had to guess. Elden Ring bosses are way harder for me to read. And judging from little I played of my second playthrough attempt, I didn't "git gud" anywhere near like I did with single Sekiro run. First and second run were night and day difference for me in Sekiro. I breezed through it, it was a very short run. Did it in couple days.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Even I managed to see through them, eventually, so I don't know if they are that sophisticated.

I mean, you ARE supposed to "see through them" and learn how to exploit them. That's the entire gameplay loop, not some unintended collateral.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Obviously you are supposed to see through them, but it's not obvious at first, and each one feels like you are learning a whole new song. Never quite the same, never predictable, always bad ass looking.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Finished. Man, what a game. My second favourite Fromsoft game with quite a margin down to third, and if I were to put my objectivity-goggles on, I'd struggle to argue it isn't the best. Certainly the most polished, the most consistent and the most purely FUN to play.

The last couple of bosses were great. I actually loved the Demon of Hatred fight. I know it has a reputation as a fight that doesn't belong to the game it's in, but I can't agree. I thought it worked very well, and there was plenty of deflecting and perilous attack-dodging to be done.

Unfortunately, I think my attack power was a bit too high for the final boss. Killed him on the third attempt, without feeling as though I'd mastered it, as I needed to do against most other bosses. He just died too quickly. I'll try not to overlevel myself the next time around. Still a fun fight while it lasted.


Now, pls Myazaki, gib sequel

 

[Lyric Suite]

You can just fight him in the memory. Those things scale to your AR so it doesn't matter how much power you have.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

The fact this joke always manages to spark heavy debate with people that played Sekiro, is imo proof that regardless of its ultimate factuality, it does contain a core of truth

Anonona has summarised some of the issues well

But I don't wish to prolong the thread on such a repeatedly dicussed topic, so I'll just continue it somewhere else
Which suits me fine, as I've been thinking of making a thread dedicated solely to the discussion of action combat design for some months now...

 

[Socrates]

Finished. Man, what a game. My second favourite Fromsoft game with quite a margin down to third, and if I were to put my objectivity-goggles on, I'd struggle to argue it isn't the best. Certainly the most polished, the most consistent and the most purely FUN to play.

Sekiro I think is the most underrated game in the FromSoft line of games. It has some of the coolest locations and bosses in any game they've ever made. Some of the final bosses like SSI, Father Owl, and DoH are very challenging fights.

 

[Silva]

Anybody else has this peculiar condition when playing Sekiro on controller: I can't for the life of me time the correct inputs of dodge & jump /circle & X buttons. It seems I'm unable to react with my thumb quickly enough between those two buttons, and so the game becomes extremely difficult for me to succeed.

What I end up doing, and which made me manage and finish the game fine, is assigning dodge to R2/right trigger. Now - with 3 distinct fingers covering 3 district buttons - I have no problem reacting.

Anybody else had this? It never happened in any other souls game to me, only Sekiro. Weird huh?

 

[Jaedar]

Beat this for the first time today (I played it on release, but quit when I reached Super Owl, Demon and Isshin). Isshin was a damned satisfying last boss. Felt impossible at first, but after 10 tries or so it just started feeling reasonable since he has good tells and predictable AI. He just attacks so god damn fast that if you actually manage to deal with his attacks his posture also goes down super fast. I also love how each phase builds on the previous, instead of just being completely unrelated. Because of this, I managed to win first time I got to the final phase (praise rice!).

I struggled a lot for the first few hours, then, while fighting one of the centipede men the timings just kinda clicked and I started doing fairly well (beating Genichiro on second try felt very good), although I still needed a lot of attempts at some bosses. For the entire playthrough I also had butterfingers and kept hitting jump/dodge when I meant the other button, and also a lot of real misreacts to the red kanji signs.

I did not like Sekiro when playing it on release (struggled through a lot of it, had to force myself to keep trying on a lot of bosses), but coming back to it, I like it a lot more and looked forward to the nth attempt at a boss (the short runbacks help a lot).

Probably NG+ is up next, and Shura ending so I get to fight those two bosses. I also want to bully the initial ogre fight with fire axe. Fuck that guy for roadblocking me.

 

[Jaedar]

Owl after you killed Ashina:
"That took a while"

"But it was worth the wait"


NG+ was kinda boring though. With 10 gourd uses, all the prosthetics (minus final axe and fire, not enough lazulite) and all the vitality upgrades, you can kinda make infinity mistakes on most of the game and just heal through. Guardian ape was kinda the exception (only 2 tries though, compared to dozens in NG), and the new bosses for Shura took quite a few attempts to learn.

I like how old Isshin compared to young Isshin. Young you kinda don't have to do much (except counter all his attacks to not die), because just by surviving you'll inflict enough posture damage to bring him down since he is relentless. But old he is way more passive which means you have to hunt for openings to inflict damage.

It also seems the skill points gained from killing stuff barely increases with NG cycles, so getting to play with the mushin skills seems grindy as fuck.

Anybody else has this peculiar condition when playing Sekiro on controller: I can't for the life of me time the correct inputs of dodge & jump /circle & X buttons. It seems I'm unable to react with my thumb quickly enough between those two buttons, and so the game becomes extremely difficult for me to succeed.

I fumble with dodge/jump all the time as well.

 

[Jaedar]

Also, I love how generous Sekiro is with bonfires right next to bosses. I don't think any run to the boss is longer than 20s, and most don't have any non-trivial enemies to dodge. Makes those two dozen learning attempts way less annoying.

 

[Lyre Mors]

Jaedar, if you want more, check out the Sekiro Resurrection Mod. I haven't had a chance to try it myself yet, but really like the sounds of a lot of its features.

 

[Spike]

Also Sekiro: Long May the Shadows Reflect! Made by a based nip