Separating skills and stats

[GarfunkeL]

What do you guys think of the idea that Brian&Annie came up for their ZRPG? Basically, they have only the following stats:

Simple is the operative word because I will be talking about Stats, which aside from Skills (which we've mostly covered except for the social skills) are the primary way we determine how good/awful a character would be suited to a task. We keep the game's Stats to a bare minimum, but like Skills, check them for a variety of different reasons. Skills can be increased somewhat regularly, but stat points are only earned for earning a large amount of skill points, so an increase in a stat is a pretty big deal. All Stats, like Skills, are measured on a scale from 1 to 10, with 1 being terrible and 10 being incredible. Our Stats are:

Strength – How physically strong the player is

-Determines carry weight
-Used to calculate additional melee damage/how effective a character can be with heavier weapons

Agility – How nimble a character is

-Determines combat evasion
-Used to derive total Action Points

Perception – How keen-eyed and quick to react the player is

-Determines Initiative
-Contributes to effectiveness with ranged weapons

Vigor – How healthy a player is

-Determines total Hit Points
-Contributes to how many HP are recovered when being healed

All of these are important for combat reasons.

It looks like stats basically only measure your pure physical state and skills are used for both mental tasks and combined (ie, you need to think about what you are doing with your body) tasks. Anyway, their aim is not to have stats influence skills at all or very little.

Is dropping INT and CHA and WIS a good idea? Can stats and skills be completely divorced - very, very few RPG's have tried that.

 

[Droog White Smile]

This is so dumbed down.

Even Action RPGs nowadays have more stats. Not to mention that dropping INT is a horrible idea. I want to be able to make dumb or smart characters FFS.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Needs more context. I'd want to know whether the skill system takes over a lot of the role of int/cha, so you can have an intelligent or unintelligent character measured by what they know. I agree that it isn't utterly necessary to have both stats and skills cover the same thing.

 

[Kosmonaut]

This is so dumbed down.

Even Action RPGs nowadays have more stats. Not to mention that dropping INT is a horrible idea. I want to be able to make dumb or smart characters FFS.

It's time to part.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Needs more context. I'd want to know whether the skill system takes over a lot of the role of int/cha, so you can have an intelligent or unintelligent character measured by what they know. I agree that it isn't utterly necessary to have both stats and skills cover the same thing.

Two social skills - Leadership and Negotiation.

Other skills - Melee, Mechanical, Survival, Medical, Ranged and Science. Could be more, of those I'm sure.

 

[Droog White Smile]

Two social skills - Leadership and Negotiation.

Other skills - Melee, Mechanical, Survival, Medical, Ranged and Science. Could be more, of those I'm sure.

This game is gonna be shit.

 

[Darth Roxor]

First Drog impersonation - The Blobert - has failed.

Proceeding with second impersonation - The Skyway.

So far, failing as predicted.

 

[Liberal]

Seems liek this RPG has the same number of stats as Diablo.

Two social skills - Leadership and Negotiation.

Other skills - Melee, Mechanical, Survival, Medical, Ranged and Science.

As a rule, when you can't tell the function of a skill from its name, it's going to be completely useless. I do't know what half of these are going to be used for, so...

 

[Azrael the cat]

Seems liek this RPG has the same number of stats as Diablo.

Two social skills - Leadership and Negotiation.

Other skills - Melee, Mechanical, Survival, Medical, Ranged and Science.

As a rule, when you can't tell the function of a skill from its name, it's going to be completely useless. I do't know what half of these are going to be used for, so...

Seems pretty obvious: leadership and negotiation are substitutes for the charisma stat, basically dividing charisma into 2 mini-stats. Melee and ranged are obvious. Science is use of computers and chemicals. Medical is obvious. Survival would be ability to detect oncoming enemies, scavenge food and so on (akin to use in FO and numerous other games). Mechanical has been explained by the developers - it's basically a modern-setting replacement for thieving skills like pick lock and open safe. In modern times you don't have guys who can pick locks old-school just hanging around; instead you'd have people who know how to do a small controlled explosion to blow the lid off a safe, or to blow open a door, or make a key and so on. Might also be combined with a repairing function.

Not saying that all the skills will work that way - I don't know. But they're not exactly a confusing bunch if you've played any rpgs outside of DnD.

 

[Big Nose George]

As a rule, when you can't tell the function of a skill from its name, it's going to be completely useless. I do't know what half of these are going to be used for, so...

Location: Absurdistan

 

[Phelot]

I think in this case less is good. If all charisma is going to do is give a skill boost then you may as well do without it. Doesn't mean it's dumbed down, it just means they don't want to put in useless stats that they'll have to worry about finding a use for. Take a look at Fallout. I know we've talked about this before, but the games didn't use all their stats well enough. I actually prefer to have a very complicated character build system, but if half the shit I put points into isn't going to do anything or if more stats means the developers will make terrible instances of checks for them, then I'd rather they just not be there.

 

[Castanova]

It's pretty obvious already that Strength and Vigor are going to be nearly useless compared to Agility and Perception. More candidates for being terrible: Negotiation, Melee, and Science.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

 

[zenbitz]

Obviously it depends on the game.

Stats+Skills are just an abstraction of "do stuff in game with some chance of success".

Lots of old PnP games didn't even have "skills". Original AD&D had only thief skills, for example.

The only reason to separate INT from skills is if:
a) you can increase it independently from skills (hardly realistic)
b) you have dialog/interaction differences for smart/dumb.

Ditto charisma, and WTF is Wisdom anyway?

Remember also that it's a COMPUTER GAME not a "rpg system". So there is no need design the stat/skill system to account for things the "GM" hasn't thought of. All the "task" checks are pre-programmed ahead of time.

For example - it's a Zombie RPG. Chances are the skill "Bake cookies" is not going to be relevant.

 

[Erebus]

WTF is Wisdom anyway?

It's your spirituality... or is it willpower ? No wait, it's your common sense... err, your perception of the outside world... ah, fuck this, I don't know either.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Well, the old analogues was that when water falls on you and you are outside, INT will tell you that it's raining while WIS will tell you to go inside before you catch cold.

 

[Lyric Suite]

WTF is Wisdom anyway?

It's your spirituality... or is it willpower ? No wait, it's your common sense... err, your perception of the outside world... ah, fuck this, I don't know either.

Weininger to the rescue:

http://www.theabsolute.net/ottow/henid.html

Wisdom is experience. It is simply knowing, and i mean, really knowing. Knowing its an entirely different matter from having information. Elder George talks about this in his classic video:

http://www.mensaction.net/video/Vagina- ... nters.html

 

[Azrael the cat]

It's pretty obvious already that Strength and Vigor are going to be nearly useless compared to Agility and Perception. More candidates for being terrible: Negotiation, Melee, and Science.

I would have thought that in a modern setting Science could be one of the most important. On top of that, lots of folk - well, me at least - always boost the science stat in modern-setting games because it usually leads to interesting background info that you wouldn't otherwise get. But there's no reason why science should be limited to that - it's a modern setting, not post-apocalyptic, so there should be plenty of things to use it on.

The usefulness of melee will depend entirely on how difficult it is to scavenge enough supplies. If ammo is tight, it could definitely be useful to have a party member or two who can clear some fights without using up ammo. Same applies for strength and vigor.

If negotiation is like bartering, then it's traditionally useless because most games throw cash at you. Again, there is no reason why that would need to be the case. In any event, I think I recall reading something indicating that it isn't just a trade skill, but is used in some diplomatic scenarios. Diplomatic paths are never 'needed' to finish these kind of games, but plenty of folk like them and will use them.

Not saying it will be good, just saying there's nothing in this so far that means it won't be.

 

[zenbitz]

You fuckwits, I know what "wisdom" is in the dictionary sense, or if I didn't I could look it up.

I mean HOW SHOULD IT APPLY in a typical RPG (cRPG or other). There is a reason why "wisdom" is not used in games other than D&D.

To use the example above:
Player: I go out side
GM: Water hits you in the head
Player: [Intelligence] It must be raining!
GM: Duh.
Player: I go inside before I catch cold.
GM: Roll vs. Wisdom first...

Doesn't work, does it?? I am pretty sure "Wisdom" exists in D&D so that clerics would have a different primary stat that "Magic Users".

(and yes, in my above example, using and Intelligence roll to determine that the water hitting you in the head is, in fact, rain, is stupid too)

 

[Big Nose George]

You fuckwits, I know what "wisdom" is in the dictionary sense, or if I didn't I could look it up.

I mean HOW SHOULD IT APPLY in a typical RPG (cRPG or other). There is a reason why "wisdom" is not used in games other than D&D.

To use the example above:
Player: I go out side
GM: Water hits you in the head
Player: [Intelligence] It must be raining!
GM: Duh.
Player: I go inside before I catch cold.
GM: Roll vs. Wisdom first...

Doesn't work, does it?? I am pretty sure "Wisdom" exists in D&D so that clerics would have a different primary stat that "Magic Users".

(and yes, in my above example, using and Intelligence roll to determine that the water hitting you in the head is, in fact, rain, is stupid too)

If you see that the example is bad, why use it?
You apply "wisdom" through good questdesign. It needs to adapt to the user and provide more appropriate situations.

Simple example:
Solving a puzzle - INT 16
Reading unknown language - WIS 21

I guess you think that the reason "wisdom" is not used outside dnd (again according to you) is because its hard to separate wisdom and intelligence? Its true. In the real world intelligence and knowledge are not separate entities. Hell, even emotions or charisma are all part of one big thing. But you dont need a hard definition of wisdom or intelligence if the player can approximately guess what is needed. Questdesign helps.

If you've been in development hell as long as AoD you can even check for both and provide for a real word experience =P
(with the small contradiction to the real world - wisdom/knowledge/experience always beats intelligence)

Simple example:
Solving a hard puzzle - 25 points needed - INT counts double, WIS normal.
10 INT = 20
5 WIS = 5
Total = 25
Solved

Reading unknown language - 21 needed - WIS double, INT normal.
10 INT = 10
5 WIS = 10
Total = 20
Fail


Strangely enough, from you.

Stats+Skills are just an abstraction of "do stuff in game with some chance of success".

Nobody cares what name a skill or stat has or if they are separated as long as there are checks for them ingame or if they have a function.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Not to mention that dropping INT is a horrible idea. I want to be able to make dumb characters FFS.

I understand.

 

[Murk]

Err, to go back on topic.

Keeping in mind that this is an Indie RPG and that consolidating what elements a game actually needs vs. what elements seem cool may prove helpful in the long run (in that it actually sees the light of day), I'd say its not a bad choice at all.

There may be less skills over all but if each skill is actually important then that more than makes up for it -- I also don't mind if mental attributes are dropped if the only difference was going to be one more parameter for stat-checks in dialog or flavor text in conversation. Torment used wisdom/intelligence very thoroughly in its dialogs but that was the main focus of the game, this is a survival game set in a fucked up situation - maybe solving rubiks cubes isn't all that necessary to the game?

If having less stats/skills means that each one is more important and that there are no 'dump' stats, then that is fine -- at least in theory, nothing is for sure until actual gameplay is visible and we can see how the design choices actually worked out in the game.

It's pretty obvious already that Strength and Vigor are going to be nearly useless compared to Agility and Perception.

I can see this being true..

More candidates for being terrible: Negotiation, Melee, and Science.

Melee maybe, but Negotiation? The devs have pointed out multiple times how this game is less about killing zombies and more about surviving in the setting and that often your biggest threat is other human beings -- in which case negotiation may be one of the most useful dialog skills possible. Given it is a survival setting - in other words a hostile and aggressive world -- you would need to talk people down. In other games you convince people to go along with you with diplomacy or persuasion, negotiation seems more of a "please put the gun down, I just want a drink of water" type of skill instead of the "this is in your best interest as it is my own" way it has been used in previous cRPGs. As for science... well, Azrael already kind of covered that but if it is in a modern setting where the zombie apocalypse has JUST started that means there is plenty of technology around to be used and more importantly, to be scavenged and rebuilt.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It's pretty obvious already that Strength and Vigor are going to be nearly useless compared to Agility and Perception. More candidates for being terrible: Negotiation, Melee, and Science.

Based on what?

Gunfire attracts more zombies, so Melee isn't an "until you find a gun" skill. Getting up close and personal with a zombie in a survival RPG is risky but not as risky as having to deal with a horde of zombies attracted by the shooting noise.

Negotiation is obvious. As Brian said, the game is more about dealing with people than killing zombies. Think the Mist.

Science - "Or, if it makes more sense, that part in Army of Darkness when Ash mixes up some gunpowder thanks to the chemistry book in his trunk. " 'nuff said.

 

[zenbitz]

Stats+Skills are just an abstraction of "do stuff in game with some chance of success".

Nobody cares what name a skill or stat has or if they are separated as long as there are checks for them ingame or if they have a function.

Which doesn't prevent me from mocking a games particular abstraction if it makes none sense.

Lots of games seperate "intelligence" into things like perception, reasoning/logic, intiution, memory, education, etc.

But "Wisdom" -- while perhaps having some purpose game wise other than giving Clerics a different primary stat is extremely poorly named at best.

Checking some wiki definition for D&D's Wisdom:

Wisdom (WIS): Wisdom is a composite term for the characters enlightenment, judgement, wile, willpower and intuitiveness.

No, I can grant that the designers wished to separate the above from:

Intelligence (INT): Intelligence is similar to IQ, but also includes mnemonic ability, reasoning and learning ability outside those measured by the written word.

But that "composite" stat does not fit any definition of the real-world wisdom. It's basically just "Wizard Mental stat" and "Cleric Mental Stat".

Note that the "raining outside" part I would consider "judgement". Which I guess could be used in a game situation by the GM to check if the player was going to make his character do something extremely "rash".

And your "unknown language" example makes little sense to me. "Intuitiveness?" If I made a game where figuring out unknown languages was important, I would use a "Linguistics Skill". I guess you could have it default to the "Intuition" part of your intelligence stats... but it's clearly an odd case.

So in summary, it's not that the "D&D Wisdom" is a poor abstraction, but rather that it's named in a counterintuituive manner.

I would have probably called D&D Wisdom "Spirituality" since it's primary use is that. Runequest called this stat "Power" - and it was basically magical power points + will power. Call of Cthulhu I think had "Intelligence", "Education", "Power", and "Charisma"... they might have use appearance instead. Ironically, the early edition "stats" are opaque to a quick googling.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The way I see it, INT is "academically smart", while WIS is "life smart". For example, that Harvard professor who fell for the Nigerian scam and handed them over 600k hoping to get 50 mil was academically smart but not very wise. Wisdom is often associated with age; the opposite of it would be the "folly of youth", so that's your clue as a designer.

In a game wisdom should suggest the best course of action when it can't be figured out academically. Quick in-game examples:

Some thugs offer you to rob a rich, unguarded house in a bad part of town. Your wisdom should kick in and tell you that it's unguarded for a reason, that nobody is stupid enough to try to steal anything from it.

A typical dispute between two people. Neither side is clearly right or wrong. One of those "the way you say it, you're right, the way he says it, he's right" situations, which makes it a wisdom call.