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Shadowrun Shadowrun Returns - Dead Man's Switch Original Campaign

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Please show me the last know instance of a random punk pulling a complete and total victory against an otherworldly hivemind immune to conventional warfare.
I'm presenting a hypothetical scenario here. Why does a cyberpunk story exist in which the threat is so huge that only a megacorp with the help of dragon CEOs can take care of it? Isn't there a possibility of another story in which the megacorps and CEOs don't look like the only hope for the city? Like I said, there is no punk in this cyberpunk story.

As far as I know, Lonestar's only concern is to keep the peace on the streets and protect Megacorps interests.
So, they are basically the police?
Y'know you come across as someone who's not really familiar with Shadowrun and want it to be something it's not. This was all there to begin with. :M
I know it was there in the first place, that's why I said there's internal tension in the Shadowrun setting in general, not only in Dead Man's Switch. DMS just doubles down on the strange elements. Why is James Telestrian III a major mover in this cyberpunk story that is being told to me? Also, Melinda Watts has a generous deal with James, yet *substance abuse* causes them to fall on hard times? Drugs aren't that expensive. But that's besides the point. What I also find strange is that the story wouldn't be any different had the player not been involved at all. Harlequin would've went in with a squad of Tir Tairngire ghosts with the Aegis sample and experimental weapons they already possessed. What would've been better in this case is if we had worked for Lynne Telestrian from the very start and we were the ones to blow up the Aegis lab. As it stands now, our involvement as a shadowrunner doesn't make much sense once we take care of the creep doctor, it actively detracts from the cyberpunk setting.
 

Roguey

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DMS just doubles down on the strange elements. Why is James Telestrian III a major mover in this cyberpunk story that is being told to me?

You're really hung up on genre conventions that you think this setting should have. :M

"Nooo why is this powerful figure in this setting making power moves, he should be completely evil and completely incompetent," that's what you sound like. "A story with this kind of setting can only tell *this* kind of story and no other because I say so."
 

HeroMarine

Irenaeus
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Please be patient with him, Lacrymas has autism. :(

I disagree.

Please show me the last know instance of a random punk pulling a complete and total victory against an otherworldly hivemind immune to conventional warfare.
I'm presenting a hypothetical scenario here. Why does a cyberpunk story exist in which the threat is so huge that only a megacorp with the help of dragon CEOs can take care of it? Isn't there a possibility of another story in which the megacorps and CEOs don't look like the only hope for the city? Like I said, there is no punk in this cyberpunk story.

As far as I know, Lonestar's only concern is to keep the peace on the streets and protect Megacorps interests.
So, they are basically the police?
Y'know you come across as someone who's not really familiar with Shadowrun and want it to be something it's not. This was all there to begin with. :M
I know it was there in the first place, that's why I said there's internal tension in the Shadowrun setting in general, not only in Dead Man's Switch. DMS just doubles down on the strange elements. Why is James Telestrian III a major mover in this cyberpunk story that is being told to me? Also, Melinda Watts has a generous deal with James, yet *substance abuse* causes them to fall on hard times? Drugs aren't that expensive. But that's besides the point. What I also find strange is that the story wouldn't be any different had the player not been involved at all. Harlequin would've went in with a squad of Tir Tairngire ghosts with the Aegis sample and experimental weapons they already possessed. What would've been better in this case is if we had worked for Lynne Telestrian from the very start and we were the ones to blow up the Aegis lab. As it stands now, our involvement as a shadowrunner doesn't make much sense once we take care of the creep doctor, it actively detracts from the cyberpunk setting.

Agree with everything.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
18,737
Pathfinder: Wrath
You're really hung up on genre conventions that you think this setting should have. :M

"Nooo why is this powerful figure in this setting making power moves, he should be completely evil and completely incompetent," that's what you sound like. "A story with this kind of setting can only tell *this* kind of story and no other because I say so."
Why use a cyberpunk setting if you aren't going to tell cyberpunk stories? Or to tell stories that actively go against the spirit of such a setting? Imagine if Blade Runner ended with Rutger Hauer being revealed as crazy all along and the police turning out to be right to try to gun him down where he stands. What kind of story is that? This is essentially what DMS boils down to - Sam doesn't find fulfillment in the relatively (spiritually) free shadowrunner life, his sister goes crazy because of that and the police (James Telestrian and by proxy us) have to execute her.

???
 

Roguey

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Why use a cyberpunk setting if you aren't going to tell cyberpunk stories? Or to tell stories that actively go against the spirit of such a setting?

You are getting way hung up on "cyberpunk." It's a sci-fi/fantasy future dystopia and they can tell whatever stories they want with it. One of the themes of Shadowrun is accepting necessary evils e.g. the dragons are powerful and malicious, but their existence keeps greater horrors from wiping out mankind entirely. Sometimes you need the resources of a normally-uncaring megacorp to provide solutions when doing so is in its best interest since that is better than just dying.
 
Vatnik Wumao
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Why use a cyberpunk setting if you aren't going to tell cyberpunk stories? Or to tell stories that actively go against the spirit of such a setting?
If you consider Shadowrun to be that way, then you have a very narrow definition of what constitutes 'authentic' cyberpunk. The latter is all about the personal life stories and struggles of the people living as marginal elements of society under a high tech corporate dystopia, many of these ending in tragedy. Such personal stories can naturally take a more political character, but in that case the triumphs of the protagonists would only be temporary victories for the societal underclasses and mostly of local impact. The dystopia goes on as usual, just with some small disturbances here and there due to uppity punkish figures. Otherwise if a protagonist 'redeems' the setting and steers it away from dystopia, then it becomes just a basic SF setting meant for wish fulfillment and is no longer cyberpunk beyond its visual aesthetics to the degree that it adheres to the stereotypical ones of neon lights, East Asian influences and what not.

If you want to take a purist stance vis-a-vis the genre, you might want instead to take issue with the fact that Shadowrun mixes cyberpunk proper with fantasy elements (which is a workable mix, but no longer classic cyberpunk akin to Neuromancer and what have you).
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
You are getting way hung up on "cyberpunk." It's a sci-fi/fantasy future dystopia and they can tell whatever stories they want with it. One of the themes of Shadowrun is accepting necessary evils e.g. the dragons are powerful and malicious, but their existence keeps greater horrors from wiping out mankind entirely. Sometimes you need the resources of a normally-uncaring megacorp to provide solutions when doing so is in its best interest since that is better than just dying.
XdGa5Wf.jpg
First of all, why take inspiration from cyberpunk classics when you don't want to have a cyberpunk story? Second of all, they wanted the shadowrunners to be counter-culture rascals revealing the deep corruption of megacorporations, yet what we got is megacorps being the only hope and we fighting alongside them as agents of the status quo. Very counter-cultural there.
 

HeroMarine

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You are getting way hung up on "cyberpunk." It's a sci-fi/fantasy future dystopia and they can tell whatever stories they want with it. One of the themes of Shadowrun is accepting necessary evils e.g. the dragons are powerful and malicious, but their existence keeps greater horrors from wiping out mankind entirely. Sometimes you need the resources of a normally-uncaring megacorp to provide solutions when doing so is in its best interest since that is better than just dying.
First of all, why take inspiration from cyberpunk classics when you don't want to have a cyberpunk story? Second of all, they wanted the shadowrunners to be counter-culture rascals revealing the deep corruption of megacorporations, yet what we got is megacorps being the only hope and we fighting alongside them as agents of the status quo. Very counter-cultural there.

That makes a lot of sense.
 

Roguey

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First of all, why take inspiration from cyberpunk classics when you don't want to have a cyberpunk story?

They like the aesthetics.

Second of all, they wanted the shadowrunners to be counter-culture rascals revealing the deep corruption of megacorporations, yet what we got is megacorps being the only hope and we fighting alongside them as agents of the status quo. Very counter-cultural there.

Whoever wrote that is using the the liberal definition of counterculture ("edgy", but safe).

From the first edition of Shadowrun:

The blending of technology and human flesh began in the late 20th century. Interfacing the human mind with computers was just the first step. Implants that "jack up" reflexes and cybernetic replacements followed quickly. Then came the Awakening. A five-thousand-year lull in the flow of mystical energies subsided, and Magic returned to the world. Elves, Dwarfs, and Trolls assumed their true form, throwing off their human guise.

In the world of 2050, the megaplexes are monsters casting long shadows. As shadowrunners, that's where you live, in the cracks between the giant corporate structures. When the megacorps want something done but they don't want to dirty their hands, it's a Shadowrun they need, and they come to you. Though your existence is not acknowledged by any governmental or corporate database, the demand for your services is high. You might be a Technomancer, sliding like a whisper through the databases of giant corporations, spiriting away the only thing of real value -- information. Or perhaps you are a Street Samurai, an enforcer for hire whose combat skills and reflexes make you the ultimate urban predator. Or perhaps a Mage, one with an ancient gift, the ability to wield and shape the magical energies that now surround the Earth. And that's exactly the kind of firepower you'll need if you get hired to make a Shadowrun..."

Runners are tools of the corporations, always have been.
 
Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
19,613
First of all, why take inspiration from cyberpunk classics when you don't want to have a cyberpunk story?
According to your definition of a cyberpunk story.

Second of all, they wanted the shadowrunners to be counter-culture rascals revealing the deep corruption of megacorporations, yet what we got is megacorps being the only hope and we fighting alongside them as agents of the status quo. Very counter-cultural there.
They are countercultural by existing on the margins of corporate society (most often in a legal grey zone, being SINless and all that) and living by different values than the broader society. And when they interact with the corporate world, they do so as freelancing outsiders seeking out their own interests while remaining culturally distinct (unlike, say, the mercenary companies that are directly subordinated to the corporations and live by corporate ethics). And once that mutually beneficial collaboration ends, they return to their own cultural environment to live by their preexisting cultural norms. As for why the megacorps are the 'only hope', they're the only big players by the very logic of the dystopic setting that the cyberpunk genre entails.
 
Last edited:

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
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Pathfinder: Wrath
From the first edition of Shadowrun:

The blending of technology and human flesh began in the late 20th century. Interfacing the human mind with computers was just the first step. Implants that "jack up" reflexes and cybernetic replacements followed quickly. Then came the Awakening. A five-thousand-year lull in the flow of mystical energies subsided, and Magic returned to the world. Elves, Dwarfs, and Trolls assumed their true form, throwing off their human guise.

In the world of 2050, the megaplexes are monsters casting long shadows. As shadowrunners, that's where you live, in the cracks between the giant corporate structures. When the megacorps want something done but they don't want to dirty their hands, it's a Shadowrun they need, and they come to you. Though your existence is not acknowledged by any governmental or corporate database, the demand for your services is high. You might be a Technomancer, sliding like a whisper through the databases of giant corporations, spiriting away the only thing of real value -- information. Or perhaps you are a Street Samurai, an enforcer for hire whose combat skills and reflexes make you the ultimate urban predator. Or perhaps a Mage, one with an ancient gift, the ability to wield and shape the magical energies that now surround the Earth. And that's exactly the kind of firepower you'll need if you get hired to make a Shadowrun..."

Runners are tools of the corporations, always have been.
None of the three nu-Shadowruns frame you as a tool of the megacorporations, though. The devs themselves obviously wanted you to be at odds with them, as revealed by their own words.

They are countercultural by existing on the margins of corporate society (most often in a legal grey zone, being SINless and all that) and living by different values than the broader society. And when they interact with the corporate world, they do so as freelancing outsiders seeking out their own interests while remaining culturally distinct (unlike, say, the mercenary companies that are directly subordinated to the companies and live by corporate ethics). And once that mutually beneficial collaboration ends, they return to their own cultural environment to live by their preexisting cultural norms. As for why the megacorps are the 'only hope', they're the only big players by the very logic of the dystopic setting that the cyberpunk genre entails.
This really doesn't make much sense and this is the only time in my entire life where I see people saying cyberpunk isn't actually about raging against the machine, but working in tandem with it (or being in a kind of symbiotic relationship with it). Very bizarre logic.
 

HeroMarine

Irenaeus
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They are countercultural by existing on the margins of corporate society (most often in a legal grey zone, being SINless and all that) and living by different values than the broader society. And when they interact with the corporate world, they do so as freelancing outsiders seeking out their own interests while remaining culturally distinct (unlike, say, the mercenary companies that are directly subordinated to the companies and live by corporate ethics). And once that mutually beneficial collaboration ends, they return to their own cultural environment to live by their preexisting cultural norms. As for why the megacorps are the 'only hope', they're the only big players by the very logic of the dystopic setting that the cyberpunk genre entails.
This really doesn't make much sense and this is the only time in my entire life where I see people saying cyberpunk isn't actually about raging against the machine, but working in tandem with it. Very bizarre logic.

Agree, makes no sense what the guy with the weird name (hongkongbling?) posted. Cyberpunk has always been fighting against oppressive authorities, like the Communist Chinese government.

His definition is correct.

I'm going to with "No, you're wrong" for 500 Alex.

I'm sorry, who are you?
 

HeroMarine

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Do you exist to just agree with his shit opinions?
Nah, he got triggered in another thread so now he's following me around to mass rate and be contrarian. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Why are you upset that Cyberpunk was created to combat oppressive corporation-government tyranies like the Chinese Communist government? Have ever read or played a Cyberpunk ever? My guess is not.

It would explain why you walk around with this weird "Wuhao" tag.
 

Mauman

Scholar
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Jun 30, 2021
Messages
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They are countercultural by existing on the margins of corporate society (most often in a legal grey zone, being SINless and all that) and living by different values than the broader society. And when they interact with the corporate world, they do so as freelancing outsiders seeking out their own interests while remaining culturally distinct (unlike, say, the mercenary companies that are directly subordinated to the companies and live by corporate ethics). And once that mutually beneficial collaboration ends, they return to their own cultural environment to live by their preexisting cultural norms. As for why the megacorps are the 'only hope', they're the only big players by the very logic of the dystopic setting that the cyberpunk genre entails.
This really doesn't make much sense and this is the only time in my entire life where I see people saying cyberpunk isn't actually about raging against the machine, but working in tandem with it. Very bizarre logic.

Agree, makes no sense what the guy with the weird name (hongkongbling?) posted. Cyberpunk has always been fighting against oppressive authorities, like the Communist Chinese government.

Do you exist to just agree with his shit opinions?
Nah, he got triggered in another thread so now he's following me around to mass rate and be contrarian. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I must admit, seeing this blowup is pretty amusing.

His definition is correct.

I'm going to with "No, you're wrong" for 500 Alex.

I'm sorry, who are you?

I'm just someone who thinks you're an idiot.

Regardless....

So, if Cyperpunk is about fighting oppressive authorities, how do films like Blade Runner fit in? Do they not qualify?
 

HeroMarine

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I'm just someone who thinks you're an idiot.

Please refrain from posting empty content in GRPG Discussion. This has been a warning.

So, if Cyperpunk is about fighting oppressive authorities, how do films like Blade Runner fit in? Do they not qualify?

Blade Runner is a shitty action movie that pretends to be Cyberpunkl, read Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? instead and be cured of your ignorance.
 

Mauman

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Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
So, if Cyperpunk is about fighting oppressive authorities, how do films like Blade Runner fit in? Do they not qualify?
The film in which a police officer (an agent of the status quo) finds out what he does is wrong and marginalized characters like the androids turn out to be human and deserve rights/sympathy too?
 

Roguey

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None of the three nu-Shadowruns frame you as a tool of the megacorporations, though. The devs themselves obviously wanted you to be at odds with them, as revealed by their own words.

First game: you help out a big corp take down a cult.
Second game: you help out a dragon take down a mad scientist who wants to kill all dragons.
Third game: you help your adopted father clean up the corp mess he left behind.
Third game expansion: you literally work for the police and have the option of having your SIN restored.

The film in which a police officer (an agent of the status quo) finds out what he does is wrong and marginalized characters like the androids turn out to be human and deserve rights/sympathy too?

What the fuck? All the replicants he was sent after were murderers who needed to be dealt with.
 

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