Shadowrun Shadowrun Returns - Dead Man's Switch Original Campaign

[Ninjerk]

The replicants in Bladerunner are anything but good. They spend so much time spelling this out for you. Do you really think a "combat model" or someone "retrained for Polit. Homicide"/"trained for an offworld kick murder squad" needed to (your words) "become murderers"? They were already murderers on offworld colonies (except Pris perhaps, but I'll wager they killed some people getting out). Who do you think they were murdering out there? Only bad guys?

I didn't say it in so many words, but I'm with Hóngwèibīng on this one--your definition of cyberpunk is far too narrow and you're inserting something(s) into Blade Runner that isn't there. If you want to talk about Bladerunner 2049, then you might have a point.

Jesus, I just noticed you actually managed to get the opening scene completely wrong. The android kills the guy giving the test, and that guy might not even be a cop.

Go back and watch Bladerunner, pay attention to what actually happens, and read some critical literature about it.

It's very interesting how people can miss obvious messages in media. Sure, I got the opening scene wrong, but that doesn't mean the replicants' existence is not outlawed and they aren't executed by police for failing a made-up by the authorities test. The android from the opening was going to be murdered due to the result of that test anyway, so he was 1) a marginalized person whose existence is illegal for arbitrary reasons, 2) cornered by the authorities, and 3) on the line to be executed for existing by failing a test. It was at worst self defense. The androids' reactions are fueled and caused by their treatment as literally slaves and their only value being the labor they can produce. What do you mean read some critical literature about it? It seems you haven't read any. There is no universe in existence in which the androids aren't at worst sympathetic and at best absolutely correct. Rutger Hauer himself has said that Roy saving Deckard and his final tears in rain speech show Deckard what a real man is capable of. 2049 just takes away the last theoretically meaningful difference between androids and humans - it gives the androids the possibility to reproduce. It's not a radical take by 2049, it's a continuation of the same thought.

And somehow you've found a means to make it not so interesting. Roy Batty kills people by pushing their eyes in with his bare thumbs. Hello? Art direction?

Everyone is exploited in Bladerunner.

 

[Roguey]

QED megacorps and CEO dragons are the only hope and you betray your original counter-culture intentions to work for them. It's dad rock, not punk.

I already pasted that bit from the 1st edition rulebook that states that runners are part of the system, just off-the-books. They're not a bunch of bleeding heart Robin Hoods robbing from the rich and giving to the poor, they're amoral mercenaries who are paid big bucks by megacorps or individuals within those megacorps to fuck over other megacorps or other individuals within their megacorps.

They became murderers because the system wanted to murder them first and have outlawed their existence.

The system didn't want to murder them, it just wanted them to spend their entire short lives working to make other worlds habitable for people. Instead of just refusing to work, they murdered and escaped and then landed on a planet where they proceeded to murder multiple people who showed no hostility to them whatsoever.

The first scene is literally a police officer murdering an android because he failed a made-up (by the authorities) test.

The replicant (they're not androids, they're made of completely-biological parts) failed an empathy test. FFS man

A key aspect of replicant psychology was that they are lacking in empathy, in effect making them textbook sociopaths. A replicant could be detected by means of the Voight-Kampff test, in which emotional responses were provoked; replicants' nonverbal responses differed from that of a standard human.

You actually think the androids are the bad guys in Blade Runner? Talk about different interpretations.

Absolutely. You're siding with explicit sociopaths.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

when you think you're working against the system but it turns out you were just a tool of the system all along

really makes you think...

 

[Delterius]

now im downloading hong kong

thanks a lot

 

[Ninjerk]

The system didn't want to murder them, it just wanted them to spend their entire short lives working to make other worlds habitable for people. Instead of just refusing to work, they murdered and escaped and then landed on a planet where they proceeded to murder multiple people who showed no hostility to them whatsoever.

People who are also exploited, a la the '49ers that travelled west in search of riches in gold, the Gaels who emigrated to the New World as their indigenous culture and polity was crumbling, (I think) the Japanese that emigrated to Brazil, et al. That advertisement on the dirigible early in the film (IIRC, it was pretty quickly on and back off screen) mentions something like making a future on the offworld colonies.

 

[Parsifarka]

The android from the opening was going to be murdered due to the result of that test anyway, so he was 1) a marginalized person whose existence is illegal for arbitrary reasons

It's not a person, it only has whatever rights its manufacturers allow.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

now im downloading hong kong

thanks a lot

Best companions (i.e. Racter and Gaichu, +/- Duncan if he weren't so whiny) and a more vanilla cyberpunk plot, but damn if it isn't a chore to go through all the hub dialogue between missions.

 

[Ninjerk]

The android from the opening was going to be murdered due to the result of that test anyway, so he was 1) a marginalized person whose existence is illegal for arbitrary reasons

It's not a person, it only has whatever rights its manufacturers allow.

Tell that to Deckard.

 

[Delterius]

now im downloading hong kong

thanks a lot

Best companions (i.e. Racter and Gaichu, +/- Duncan if he weren't so whiny) and a more vanilla cyberpunk plot, but damn if it isn't a chore to go through all the hub dialogue between missions.

i always use every companion

wheres shadowrun 4 bros...

 

[Ninjerk]

now im downloading hong kong

thanks a lot

Best companions (i.e. Racter and Gaichu, +/- Duncan if he weren't so whiny) and a more vanilla cyberpunk plot, but damn if it isn't a chore to go through all the hub dialogue between missions.

Yeah, I just finished a playthrough of DFall and I remembered the general story and companion stories but for the life of me I cannot remember anything in HK.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

if you like companions: hongkong is underrated, dragonfall is very overrated

 

[Lacrymas]

So, nobody here thinks Shadowrun, whether the tabletop or the vidya gaems, is cyberpunk?

I think that both are, but I also think that you mistake urban fantasy for cyberpunk since a 'fighting the power' narrative wouldn't fit within a cyberpunk setting unless it'd be very short and end with your character's death.

I don't need anyone to fight the man in a cyberpunk setting. What I don't expect, however, is coming out thinking the megacorporations are not only good, actually, but also the only hope.

And somehow you've found a means to make it not so interesting. Roy Batty kills people by pushing their eyes in with his bare thumbs. Hello? Art direction?

Since the eyes are a window to the soul, he takes away what they have metaphorically taken away from him (or not grant him). It's poetic justice, not whatever other thing you think it is.

The system didn't want to murder them, it just wanted them to spend their entire short lives working to make other worlds habitable for people. Instead of just refusing to work, they murdered and escaped and then landed on a planet where they proceeded to murder multiple people who showed no hostility to them whatsoever.

The first scene is literally a police officer murdering an android because he failed a made-up (by the authorities) test.

The replicant (they're not androids, they're made of completely-biological parts) failed an empathy test. FFS man

A key aspect of replicant psychology was that they are lacking in empathy, in effect making them textbook sociopaths. A replicant could be detected by means of the Voight-Kampff test, in which emotional responses were provoked; replicants' nonverbal responses differed from that of a standard human.

You actually think the androids are the bad guys in Blade Runner? Talk about different interpretations.

Absolutely. You're siding with explicit sociopaths.

And slave owners just wanted slaves to work and not run away. Replicants are sociopaths according to the people tasked to hunt them down for escaping their slavery. The authorities intentionally dehumanise them in order to justify killing them without trial. Roy Batty saving Deckard is the opposite of sociopathy, that's the point of that scene. The Voight-Kampff test is demonstrably bullshit.

 

[Delterius]

dragonfall is good for its plot though. its that thing SCO used to talk about uncovering 'concentric circles of ever greater assholes', though the Ignorer was describing world of darkness instead.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Yeah, I just finished a playthrough of DFall and I remembered the general story and companion stories but for the life of me I cannot remember anything in HK.

If you want to replay HK, just don't forget to go through all of the dialogue of the chick with the magic store in the northeast corner of the hub as to be able to unlock the best ending.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I don't need anyone to fight the man in a cyberpunk setting. What I don't expect, however, is coming out thinking the megacorporations are not only good, actually, but also the only hope.

They aren't good, they just are. As for being 'the only hope', a more appropriate way to frame it is that they are the only big power players.

 

[Delterius]

this thread now made me realize that shadowrun equivalent to the xi jinpill is moving to brazil

and golly gee do i hate shadowrun brazil

I don't need anyone to fight the man in a cyberpunk setting. What I don't expect, however, is coming out thinking the megacorporations are not only good, actually, but also the only hope.

I don't think the games create that impression. Only rather that they are completely unassailable.

Spoiler

I played the entirety of Hong Kong expecting some dialogue with Josephine Tsang. As in 'hello adoptive grandmother'. The game ended with a whimper, sure, but it made sense too. Josephine Tsang is not a person, she's Tsang Inc. and talking to her, even taking her down is above my paygrade.

 

[Roguey]

And slave owners just wanted slaves to work and not run away.

It's unsavory, but building a sentient creature out of parts and expecting it to work for you is a bit different than buying a human being and expecting it to work for you.

Replicants are sociopaths according to the people tasked to hunt them down for escaping their slavery.

They're sociopaths according to a test that humans pass and all replicants fail, even Rachel who took a lot longer to fail it.

The authorities intentionally dehumanise them in order to justify killing them without trial.

Well, yeah, they're not humans. They're made out of organically-grown parts and assembled as fully-adult beings and live for only four years.

Roy Batty saving Deckard is the opposite of sociopathy, that's the point of that scene. The Voight-Kampff test is demonstrably bullshit.

My interpretation is that Roy only saved him because he didn't want to be forgotten (like tears in rain) and at that point Deckard was the only person alive who knew who he was. Sociopathic self-interest/narcissism.

 

[Delterius]

My interpretation is that Roy only saved him because he didn't want to be forgotten (like tears in rain) and at that point Deckard was the only person alive who knew who he was. Sociopathic self-interest/narcissism.

But he had never been concerned with fame up until that point, only his own survival. If he cared about being remembered then being the replicant who killed emperor roboto was much more than enough.

 

[Lacrymas]

They aren't good, they just are. As for being 'the only hope', a more appropriate way to frame it is that they are the only big power players.

Megacorporations are, in this context, unavoidable and just like a force of nature? So don't strike or rebel, peasant, for not only is it futile but also next time they'll leave you to the insect spirits.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

They aren't good, they just are. As for being 'the only hope', a more appropriate way to frame it is that they are the only big power players.

Megacorporations are, in this context, unavoidable and just like a force of nature? So don't strike or rebel, peasant, for not only is it futile but also next time they'll leave you to the insect spirits.

"these people are kinda bad but they're the only thing stopping something much worse, therefore I will strike and rebel against them"
ok have fun

 

[Heroic Liberator]

They aren't good, they just are. As for being 'the only hope', a more appropriate way to frame it is that they are the only big power players.

Megacorporations are, in this context, unavoidable and just like a force of nature? So don't strike or rebel, peasant, for not only is it futile but also next time they'll leave you to the insect spirits.

Such is the way of dystopia. Although plenty of idealists might still rebel and almost nobody knows about the eldritch horrors from beyond.

 

[Delterius]

They aren't good, they just are. As for being 'the only hope', a more appropriate way to frame it is that they are the only big power players.

Megacorporations are, in this context, unavoidable and just like a force of nature? So don't strike or rebel, peasant, for not only is it futile but also next time they'll leave you to the insect spirits.

Such is the way of dystopia. Although plenty of idealists might still rebel and almost nobody knows about the eldritch horrors from beyond.

Swift reminder that 'Corporations disappearing is bad' is not the 'moral' of Dragonfall. The bad ending in that game consists of killing all dragons. Sure, that rids you of certain Megacorps, but not the system. And besides, Megacorporations remain a human contrivance that happens to be used by certain Dragons. One Dragon became President of the US. Another became Juche Eco God Emperor of the Amazon Rainforest. Neither represent Corporate governance. If there was a way to protect the world against eldritch abominations AND killing all Dragons you'd still have Megacorps.

Rather Dragonfall and all of Shadowrun really just have this background noise of how the system is unassailable to individuals. You can't personally become a Shadowrunner and save the day and make everything right. Your paycheck is probably signed by some corp-job with 7 layers of middle men and obfuscation. Dragonfall might give you absolute power to get back at some of the biggest whales of the corporate world. It doesn't accomplish anything and the world ends anyway for completely different reasons.

 

[Roguey]

But he had never been concerned with fame up until that point, only his own survival. If he cared about being remembered then being the replicant who killed emperor roboto was much more than enough.

"This replicant killed this guy" is just words. No one was going to remember him because everyone he had ever interacted with was dead except this one guy who had been sent to kill him and had the good fortune to do so when Roy was minutes away from death and had no chance at all to make an impression on someone else.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

idk what you guys are talking about
dragonfall was a game about saving a dragon from poachers

 

[Delterius]

But he had never been concerned with fame up until that point, only his own survival. If he cared about being remembered then being the replicant who killed emperor roboto was much more than enough.

"This replicant killed this guy" is just words. No one was going to remember him because everyone he had ever interacted with was dead except this one guy who had been sent to kill him and had the good fortune to do so when Roy was minutes away from death and had no chance at all to make an impression on someone else.

And yet that's the whole point. If Roy gave a shit about his own fame he'd have given any indication of it at any point in the movie. Which he did not. He could have thrown emperor roboto from the window. He could have written Roy was here. He could have acted like a terrorist. Instead he's just a bad guy going around comitting crimes so that maybe he'll get to live forever. He's lashing out at this engineered condition. Survival is his motivation, not fame.