Shadowrun Shadowrun Returns - Dead Man's Switch Original Campaign

[Drowed]

I marvel at how Codex always manages to engage in discussions that are variations of "what is an RPG" in a disguised way. Now it's "what is cyberpunk". Honestly, it doesn't really matter whether Shadowrun is cyberpunk, mythpunk, urban fantasy, or whatever - maybe it is cyberpunk, but lousy cyberpunk. Something can be part of a genre and just be bad, you know? Shadowrun's setting and themes are simply shoddy, poorly explored, and tangential.

We don't have to worry so much about the rigidity of the definitions, Shadowrun doesn't have to be excluded from the cyberpunk genre for you to consider the game/setting/story as bad. That said I've already written 5000 character posts about why CRPGs are in essence a separate genre from RPGs with glaring differences, so who am I to say anything.

 

[Lacrymas]

None of the three nu-Shadowruns frame you as a tool of the megacorporations, though. The devs themselves obviously wanted you to be at odds with them, as revealed by their own words.

First game: you help out a big corp take down a cult.
Second game: you help out a dragon take down a mad scientist who wants to kill all dragons.
Third game: you help your adopted father clean up the corp mess he left behind.
Third game expansion: you literally work for the police and have the option of having your SIN restored.

QED megacorps and CEO dragons are the only hope and you betray your original counter-culture intentions to work for them. It's dad rock, not punk.

What the fuck? All the replicants he was sent after were murderers who needed to be dealt with.

They became murderers because the system wanted to murder them first and have outlawed their existence. The first scene is literally a police officer murdering an android because he failed a made-up (by the authorities) test. You actually think the androids are the bad guys in Blade Runner? Talk about different interpretations.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

QED megacorps and CEO dragons are the only hope and you betray your original counter-culture intentions to work for them. It's dad rock, not punk.

It's realistic in-setting, while you want a power fantasy with Mary Sue characters that take down the big bads (rather than being gunned down long before they'd get the chance, as it would be were you to play the tabletop variant of the game with a DM that stuck by the lore & rules of the setting).

 

[Lacrymas]

How is Blade Runner (as an example) a power fantasy in which the Mary Sues take down the big bads? Of course they can't do that because the game is rigged from the start, that's the point!

 

[Heroic Liberator]

How is Blade Runner (as an example) a power fantasy in which the Mary Sues take down the big bads? Of course they can't do that because the game is rigged from the start, that's the point!

Then I don't understand what's your issue with Shadowrun.

Protagonists in the setting most often work as contracts for the corporations. They often get fucked over by their corporate-affiliated paycheck providers, sometimes they fuck over the corporations and either get killed or get left off the hook if they put up enough resistance since the broader corporation is too busy with its own financially lucrative high level intrigues as to waste too much time and effort on some pesky shadowrunner ants. Either way, things stay the same at the societal level. The big players might change, particular corpos might rise and fall, but the system remains stably in place.

Same thing with Pondsmith's Cyberpunk setting. You pull a Johnny, you end up like Johnny or on the run; either way, Arasaka endures and nothing changes in society. And even if Arasaka were to fall, Militech or some other corporation would take its place.

 

[Lacrymas]

That means DMS is even more of a meaningless clusterfuck. Let's uncritically assume our character and Sam were on contracts with the corporations, that means the corporations are the root cause of Sam's (and by proxy Jessica's) emotional and philosophical turmoil (which is good and correct), but then the game turns around and tells me working for the corporations as agents of the status quo is the only hope. Not only is that schizophrenic but also what? There is no alternative then? That's deeply, profoundly anti-punk and against everything the genre stands for. It's even worse than I initially envisioned if that's the case.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

You’re all ignoring the real question here:

What is the role of eunuchs in the Shadowrun setting?

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Meh, you have a very specific definition of punk.

Also, perhaps a historical allegory might help. The conventional cyberpunk protagonists are akin to cossacks living in the wild fields and making a living through their warrior skills (sometimes by raiding on their own, other times by acting on behalf of a political entity against another) all the while trying to preserve their autonomy at the borderlands between the various powerful political entities that surround them. Your line of reasoning seems to me to be that we shouldn't be playing as cossacks, but instead as peasants. And the narrative should be about how a small band of peasants rebels against the political entity that they find themselves under to varying degrees of success (which realistically are extremely little to none).

As for DMS, I don't think that it's a good story by any means, cyberpunk or otherwise. I treat it akin to the NWN2 OC - a serviceable story meant to showcase the potential of the gameplay system. And just as that mechanical foundation allowed for MotB to be subsequently developed, so did DMS for DF (and HK imho, although some don't consider it to be on par with DF).

 

[ERYFKRAD]

That means DMS is even more of a meaningless clusterfuck. Let's uncritically assume our character and Sam were on contracts with the corporations, that means the corporations are the root cause of Sam's (and by proxy Jessica's) emotional and philosophical turmoil (which is good and correct), but then the game turns around and tells me working for the corporations as agents of the status quo is the only hope. Not only is that schizophrenic but also what? There is no alternative then? That's deeply, profoundly anti-punk and against everything the genre stands for. It's even worse than I initially envisioned if that's the case.

Say did you play Dragonfall?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

So, if Cyperpunk is about fighting oppressive authorities, how do films like Blade Runner fit in? Do they not qualify?

The film in which a police officer (an agent of the status quo) finds out what he does is wrong and marginalized characters like the androids turn out to be human and deserve rights/sympathy too?

this is one of the worst things I have ever read on this site

 

[Lacrymas]

So, if Cyperpunk is about fighting oppressive authorities, how do films like Blade Runner fit in? Do they not qualify?

The film in which a police officer (an agent of the status quo) finds out what he does is wrong and marginalized characters like the androids turn out to be human and deserve rights/sympathy too?

this is one of the worst things I have ever read on this site

If you think Blade Runner does not take the side of the androids, what is Blade Runner about then? How do you explain the tears in rain speech?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

So, if Cyperpunk is about fighting oppressive authorities, how do films like Blade Runner fit in? Do they not qualify?

The film in which a police officer (an agent of the status quo) finds out what he does is wrong and marginalized characters like the androids turn out to be human and deserve rights/sympathy too?

this is one of the worst things I have ever read on this site

If you think Blade Runner does not take the side of the androids, what is Blade Runner about then? How do you explain the tears in rain speech?

Dumbass robot's last ditch attempt to save its corroded hide.

 

[Ninjerk]

None of the three nu-Shadowruns frame you as a tool of the megacorporations, though. The devs themselves obviously wanted you to be at odds with them, as revealed by their own words.

First game: you help out a big corp take down a cult.
Second game: you help out a dragon take down a mad scientist who wants to kill all dragons.
Third game: you help your adopted father clean up the corp mess he left behind.
Third game expansion: you literally work for the police and have the option of having your SIN restored.

QED megacorps and CEO dragons are the only hope and you betray your original counter-culture intentions to work for them. It's dad rock, not punk.

What the fuck? All the replicants he was sent after were murderers who needed to be dealt with.

They became murderers because the system wanted to murder them first and have outlawed their existence. The first scene is literally a police officer murdering an android because he failed a made-up (by the authorities) test. You actually think the androids are the bad guys in Blade Runner? Talk about different interpretations.

The replicants in Bladerunner are anything but good. They spend so much time spelling this out for you. Do you really think a "combat model" or someone "retrained for Polit. Homicide"/"trained for an offworld kick murder squad" needed to (your words) "become murderers"? They were already murderers on offworld colonies (except Pris perhaps, but I'll wager they killed some people getting out). Who do you think they were murdering out there? Only bad guys?

I didn't say it in so many words, but I'm with Hóngwèibīng on this one--your definition of cyberpunk is far too narrow and you're inserting something(s) into Blade Runner that isn't there. If you want to talk about Bladerunner 2049, then you might have a point.

Jesus, I just noticed you actually managed to get the opening scene completely wrong. The android kills the guy giving the test, and that guy might not even be a cop.

Go back and watch Bladerunner, pay attention to what actually happens, and read some critical literature about it.

 

[Darth Canoli]

As far as I know, Lonestar's only concern is to keep the peace on the streets and protect Megacorps interests.

So, they are basically the police?

Meaning they don't interfere when Megacorps interests are at stake and anything besides keeping shadowrunners in check is above their paygrade.

Why use a cyberpunk setting if you aren't going to tell cyberpunk stories? Or to tell stories that actively go against the spirit of such a setting? Imagine if Blade Runner ended with Rutger Hauer being revealed as crazy all along and the police turning out to be right to try to gun him down where he stands. What kind of story is that? This is essentially what DMS boils down to - Sam doesn't find fulfillment in the relatively (spiritually) free shadowrunner life, his sister goes crazy because of that and the police (James Telestrian and by proxy us) have to execute her.

???

Firstly, it's not Blade Runner, Shadowrun is not what you think it is, did you even open a Shadowrun PnP scenario or rule book?

Secondly, Cyberpunk isn't what you think it is either, it always has been about cybernetics, implants and punk aesthetics first, even if it can change quite a bit from a novelist to the next one.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

except Pris perhaps,

She's an accomplice to Sebastian's murder.

 

[Ninjerk]

except Pris perhaps,

She's an accomplice to Sebastian's murder.

I slipped the perhaps in there because I'm kind of the side of assuming she did her share of murder getting off whatever colony they were leaving.

 

[Delterius]

First game: you help out a big corp take down a cult.
Second game: you help out a dragon take down a mad scientist who wants to kill all dragons.
Third game: you help your adopted father clean up the corp mess he left behind.
Third game expansion: you literally work for the police and have the option of having your SIN restored.

More than that,

Spoiler

in the Second Game, you can make an absolutist choice to try and kill all the dragons. This ends up destroying the world.
in the Third Game, it becomes clear that you personally can't hurt Josephine Tsang, only the other corps can.
and in the Third game's expansion, you get payback from the HK police, but mostly because another, Bigger and Better Corp is taking over. You can try and take the counter culture option of remaining with the Triad, but the arrival of I think it was ARES means Hong Kong's triads are toast and you'll have to move to Seattle anyways.

I am not big on Cyberpunk as a literary genre but I always felt that the three Shadowrun games are products of the disenchantment age that we live in. There are no naive illusions of taking down The Man. We have all seen every counter culture movement of the last century becoming co-opted by the hegemonic economic system. The Corporations are untoucheable and here to stay, unless you go full China / Shadowrun's Amazonia. The best one can do in this system is survive.

 

[Lacrymas]

The replicants in Bladerunner are anything but good. They spend so much time spelling this out for you. Do you really think a "combat model" or someone "retrained for Polit. Homicide"/"trained for an offworld kick murder squad" needed to (your words) "become murderers"? They were already murderers on offworld colonies (except Pris perhaps, but I'll wager they killed some people getting out). Who do you think they were murdering out there? Only bad guys?

I didn't say it in so many words, but I'm with Hóngwèibīng on this one--your definition of cyberpunk is far too narrow and you're inserting something(s) into Blade Runner that isn't there. If you want to talk about Bladerunner 2049, then you might have a point.

Jesus, I just noticed you actually managed to get the opening scene completely wrong. The android kills the guy giving the test, and that guy might not even be a cop.

Go back and watch Bladerunner, pay attention to what actually happens, and read some critical literature about it.

It's very interesting how people can miss obvious messages in media. Sure, I got the opening scene wrong, but that doesn't mean the replicants' existence is not outlawed and they aren't executed by police for failing a made-up by the authorities test. The android from the opening was going to be murdered due to the result of that test anyway, so he was 1) a marginalized person whose existence is illegal for arbitrary reasons, 2) cornered by the authorities, and 3) on the line to be executed for existing by failing a test. It was at worst self defense. The androids' reactions are fueled and caused by their treatment as literally slaves and their only value being the labor they can produce. What do you mean read some critical literature about it? It seems you haven't read any. There is no universe in existence in which the androids aren't at worst sympathetic and at best absolutely correct. Rutger Hauer himself has said that Roy saving Deckard and his final tears in rain speech show Deckard what a real man is capable of. 2049 just takes away the last theoretically meaningful difference between androids and humans - it gives the androids the possibility to reproduce. It's not a radical take by 2049, it's a continuation of the same thought.

 

[Delterius]

First game: you help out a big corp take down a cult.
Second game: you help out a dragon take down a mad scientist who wants to kill all dragons.
Third game: you help your adopted father clean up the corp mess he left behind.
Third game expansion: you literally work for the police and have the option of having your SIN restored.

More than that,

Spoiler

in the Second Game, you can make an absolutist choice to try and kill all the dragons. This ends up destroying the world.
in the Third Game, it becomes clear that you personally can't hurt Josephine Tsang, only the other corps can.
and in the Third game's expansion, you get payback from the HK police, but mostly because another, Bigger and Better Corp is taking over. You can try and take the counter culture option of remaining with the Triad, but the arrival of I think it was ARES means Hong Kong's triads are toast and you'll have to move to Seattle anyways.

I am not big on Cyberpunk as a literary genre but I always felt that the three Shadowrun games are products of the disenchantment age that we live in. There are no naive illusions of taking down The Man. We have all seen every counter culture movement of the last century becoming co-opted by the hegemonic economic system. The Corporations are untoucheable and here to stay, unless you go full China / Shadowrun's Amazonia. The best one can do in this system is survive.

Another thing I forgot is that,

Spoiler

The Kreuzbazaar dream of anarchic out-of-corp governance is not only kinda shitty, it's freedom can only be perpetuated with the presence of an unpredictable super AI that likes to enslave people. It's at best self defeating. Ultimately the Hong Kong canon is that the AI is shut down and the bazaar is taken over by the Corps. This is particularly bittersweet because if you played Dragonfall your character becomes the de facto leader of a neighborhood of the bazaar, to which everyone looks up to.

 

[Lacrymas]

If there is no hope and no alternative in the Shadowrun setting, then it's apocalyptic/eschatological fiction, not cyberpunk.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

If there is no hope and no alternative in the Shadowrun setting, then it's apocalyptic/eschatological fiction, not cyberpunk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_fantasy

 

[Delterius]

If there is no hope and no alternative in the Shadowrun setting, then it's apocalyptic/eschatological fiction, not cyberpunk.

There is. The alternative is whatever you can build for yourself and for your 'tribe' in the margins of society. The Kreuzbazaar existed, it's people lived and though they lead pretty shitty lives, but they lived as they willed. This alternative will only exist for as long as you can keep dodging bullets or until the Corporations come knocking and 'gentrification' starts. But there is this feeling that there will always be shadows, slums, or marginalized people in the world because this world cannot but consolidate wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people. It is an age of piracy with no sunset.

 

[Lacrymas]

If there is no hope and no alternative in the Shadowrun setting, then it's apocalyptic/eschatological fiction, not cyberpunk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_fantasy

So, nobody here thinks Shadowrun, whether the tabletop or the vidya gaems, is cyberpunk?

If there is no hope and no alternative in the Shadowrun setting, then it's apocalyptic/eschatological fiction, not cyberpunk.

There is. The alternative is whatever you can build for yourself and for your 'tribe' in the margins of society. The Kreuzbazaar existed, it's people lived and though they lead pretty shitty lives, but they lived as they willed. This alternative will only exist for as long as you can keep dodging bullets or until the Corporations come knocking and 'gentrification' starts. But there is this feeling that there will always be shadows, slums, or marginalized people in the world because this world cannot but consolidate wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people. It is an age of piracy with no sunset.

Sounds like cyberpunk to me.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

So, nobody here thinks Shadowrun, whether the tabletop or the vidya gaems, is cyberpunk?

It's futuristic urban fantasy.
Being in the future isn't always cyberpunk.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

So, nobody here thinks Shadowrun, whether the tabletop or the vidya gaems, is cyberpunk?

I think that both are, but I also think that you mistake urban fantasy for cyberpunk since a 'fighting the power' narrative wouldn't fit within a cyberpunk setting unless it'd be very short and end with your character's death.

Sounds like cyberpunk to me.

Which is what I was saying all along.