Shadowrun Shadowrun Returns - Dead Man's Switch Original Campaign

[Ninjerk]

I feel the thread split coming, boys and girls.

 

[Lacrymas]

Psychology is more of a social science than a hard one, but psychiatry is up there with any other branch of medicine. There's only a subjective academic consensus when it comes to defining something as a psychiatric illness or not, but otherwise you can objectively map whatever brain signal or chemical composition there is that corresponds to a given mental state. To argue against its validity is as silly as arguing against the validity of an ophthalmologist giving you a diagnosis for a given eye disorder and in particular parameters (e.g. diopters for far or short sightedness). You can subjectively judge that it is not a disorder, but the data itself is factual in measuring concrete physical particularities pertaining to your body (eyes in this case).

As for empathy, if you can pinpoint it exactly as manifesting through signals in the brains, then you could possibly have persons for whom those signals never light up regardless of circumstances. And in the Blade Runner universe, presumably that silly test indirectly confirms that without putting one's brain under a scanner just as a rheumatologist can indirectly confirm some muscle problem by beating you over the kneecap with a small hammer to see if a reflexive movement triggers or not without having to cut your leg open.

But to not stray too far from the original topic of conversation, your guess is as good as mine. First time I watched the movie I took that test for granted as being valid and I still tend to see it that way when judging the film on its own with no interest in directorial trivia or what have you.

You can measure brain signals with an MRI scan, but that doesn't really tell you anything. There aren't actually universal patterns that "light up" for an emotion and you can't cross-reference these. Maybe, perhaps, you can recognize a specific emotion in a single person after you have already scanned what portions of their brain light up when they feel that emotion, but that's it. There's surprisingly little information about this actually, I found this article - https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130619195137.htm which if I'm reading correctly, don't support the claim that you can measure emotions in the brain without failure. Chance guessing has a rank accuracy of 0.50 (I don't know what this means, however, is it 50%?) and the allegedly scientific method with the MRI they used has a rank accuracy of 0.71 (again, is this 71%?) when applied to a random person. In any case, it's not as simple as detecting empathy through an MRI scan.

I feel the thread split coming, boys and girls.

Quick, say something about DMS! Uuuuhm, the story doesn't make much sense when critically examined! *Phew*, that was close.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The replicants aren't human
"b-b-but"
No. They are a mockery of humanity, living dolls.


Allowing them to exist at all is sentencing humanity to its death.

 

[Silva]

So is the game (dead man's switch) working now?
I have some really bad memories of corrupted save games and constant crashes when they added the new save system way back.

Just skip this whole series and go play Genesis Shadowrun (damn, even SNES Shadowrun is better).

I'm hopeful they'll do a new Shadowrun as a true open-world sandbox based on the experience they got with Battletech.

 

[Delterius]

if the replicants are so smart why won't they help the fucking turtle

not letting this go

do they think its a trick question or something

'actually turtles are extinct and nobody mourns them' *blam*

 

[rusty_shackleford]

if the replicants are so smart why won't they help the fucking turtle

not letting this go

do they think its a trick question or something

'actually turtles are extinct and nobody mourns them' *blam*

because it doesn't benefit them
if killing you would benefit them in some way, they'd do it immediately.

They aren't human, they don't think like humans, and humans can't understand them.

 

[Delterius]

if the replicants are so smart why won't they help the fucking turtle

not letting this go

do they think its a trick question or something

'actually turtles are extinct and nobody mourns them' *blam*

because it doesn't benefit them
if killing you would benefit them in some way, they'd do it immediately.

They aren't human, they don't think like humans, and humans can't understand them.

passing the test benefits them and they probably know its about empathy. fucking psychos simulate it all the time. they have super minds why can't they do it.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

if the replicants are so smart why won't they help the fucking turtle

not letting this go

do they think its a trick question or something

'actually turtles are extinct and nobody mourns them' *blam*

because it doesn't benefit them
if killing you would benefit them in some way, they'd do it immediately.

They aren't human, they don't think like humans, and humans can't understand them.

passing the test benefits them and they probably know its about empathy fucking psychos simulate it all the time

See above at "they don't think like humans"
just as we cannot think like them, they cannot think like us. They can't imagine a scenario where it would be the correct thing to do. Psychopaths can because they are still, at some level, human.

 

[Delterius]

if the replicants are so smart why won't they help the fucking turtle

not letting this go

do they think its a trick question or something

'actually turtles are extinct and nobody mourns them' *blam*

because it doesn't benefit them
if killing you would benefit them in some way, they'd do it immediately.

They aren't human, they don't think like humans, and humans can't understand them.

passing the test benefits them and they probably know its about empathy fucking psychos simulate it all the time

See above at "they don't think like humans"
just as we cannot think like them, they cannot think like us. They can't imagine a scenario where it would be the correct thing to do. Psychopaths can because they are still, at some level, human.

thats stupid of course they do. who the fuck engineers a worker that thinks in alien ways.

'christine please bring me the crate'

'ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn?'

does that sound likely to you. of course not. the people of bladerunnia are not dumb.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

thats stupid of course they do. who the fuck engineers a worker that thinks in alien ways.

'christine please bring me the crate'

'ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn?'

does that sound likely to you. of course not. the people of bladerunnia are not dumb.

Have you ever watched one of those machine-learning AIs play boardgames or video games?
They do things we can't comprehend and make zero sense to us.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaGo_versus_Lee_Sedol

Lee Sedol got up and left the room at one point because he simply couldn't understand what the AI was even doing. He couldn't think like it.

With the 37th move in the match's second game, AlphaGo landed a surprise on the right-hand side of the 19-by-19 board that flummoxed even the world's best Go players, including Lee Sedol. "That's a very strange move," said one commentator, himself a nine dan Go player, the highest rank there is. "I thought it was a mistake," said the other. Lee Sedol, after leaving the match room, took nearly fifteen minutes to formulate a response.

Indeed, the move turned the course of the game. AlphaGo went on to win Game Two

 

[Delterius]

Have you ever watched one of those machine-learning AIs play boardgames or video games?

have you ever asked youtube to serve a cup of coffee no because its an algorithm. algorithms aren't vat clones rusty.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Have you ever watched one of those machine-learning AIs play boardgames or video games?

have you ever asked youtube to serve a cup of coffee no because its an algorithm. algorithms aren't vat clones rusty.

They're products of bioengineering.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_computing

 

[Delterius]

Have you ever watched one of those machine-learning AIs play boardgames or video games?

have you ever asked youtube to serve a cup of coffee no because its an algorithm. algorithms aren't vat clones rusty.

They're products of bioengineering.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_computing

aren't we all. the pfizers got us man.

 

[Bigg Boss]

I like Shadowrun.

 

[True Ukrainian]

if the replicants are so smart why won't they help the fucking turtle

not letting this go

do they think its a trick question or something

'actually turtles are extinct and nobody mourns them' *blam*

because it doesn't benefit them
if killing you would benefit them in some way, they'd do it immediately.

They aren't human, they don't think like humans, and humans can't understand them.

passing the test benefits them and they probably know its about empathy. fucking psychos simulate it all the time. they have super minds why can't they do it.

That's the magic of the VK test. It's impossible to fake a pass. The novel goes into more detail about this where Deckard meets another hunter who is super low empathy and suspects him to be a rep deployed to kill other reps. The hunter passes the VK easily because what minuscule empathy that he has is real, not fake.

Deckard at the conclusion gets proof that God is a lie. Absolute undeniable proof. Yet he has a religious experience because spirituality is tied to empathy.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

have you ever asked youtube to serve a cup of coffee

Yes and it sent me a video about tea estates.
Check and fucking mate, mate.

 

[Lacrymas]

That's the magic of the VK test. It's impossible to fake a pass. The novel goes into more detail about this where Deckard meets another hunter who is super low empathy and suspects him to be a rep deployed to kill other reps. The hunter passes the VK easily because what minuscule empathy that he has is real, not fake.

Deckard at the conclusion gets proof that God is a lie. Absolute undeniable proof. Yet he has a religious experience because spirituality is tied to empathy.

The problem with the VK test it not whether you can fake a pass, but whether a human can also fail it, and whether its results can be trusted or interpreted (in)correctly. Outside of that, replicants don't get killed because they lack empathy but because they are outlawed, which is a massive thing in itself. Being outlawed because of a perceived lack of function is a thing we are intimately familiar with in our own world. There's also the possibility they are manufactured specifically to fail the VK test or to lack empathy, which is another can of worms.

Have you ever watched one of those machine-learning AIs play boardgames or video games?

have you ever asked youtube to serve a cup of coffee no because its an algorithm. algorithms aren't vat clones rusty.

They're products of bioengineering.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_computing

aren't we all. the pfizers got us man.

There is another way to look at the philosophical relationship between replicants and humans; this bioengineering thing is a good segue. If replicants are biological computers but are otherwise virtually indistinguishable from humans, how are we sure humans aren't also? This can be applied to any form of this question. "Replicants are not human because they lack souls" (a thing 2049 brings up) for example. If replicants are indistinguishable from humans, how are we sure that humans have souls? These types of arguments fall into the trap of proving too much.

 

[True Ukrainian]

In the original novel, humans are incapable of failing the VK test simply because they're human. Empathy is tied to having a soul, and all humans possess a soul by virtue of our birth. That's why Deckard can experience God despite God not existing. He has a soul and can see past crude reality, something a rep can't do.

Something that walks like a duck and quacks like a duck is not necessarily a duck. A duck must have the soul of a duck. Anything else, no matter how convincing, is an imitation.

 

[Tavar]

So is the game (dead man's switch) working now?
I have some really bad memories of corrupted save games and constant crashes when they added the new save system way back.

Yes, it works fine. I finished it without experiencing any bugs.

 

[Lacrymas]

In the original novel, humans are incapable of failing the VK test simply because they're human. Empathy is tied to having a soul, and all humans possess a soul by virtue of our birth. That's why Deckard can experience God despite God not existing. He has a soul and can see past crude reality, something a rep can't do.

Something that walks like a duck and quacks like a duck is not necessarily a duck. A duck must have the soul of a duck. Anything else, no matter how convincing, is an imitation.

That's what I mean by proving too much. If replicants look, walk and quack like humans but lack souls, how are we sure humans themselves have a soul? There is a theory in Christian theology - traducianism - that argues the soul is transferred generationally and the new soul of an infant is derived from the souls of the parents. However, this is scientifically unfit and can not be resolved. There are no grounds on which to argue biological birth is the origination of a soul in the first place.

 

[True Ukrainian]

In the original novel, humans are incapable of failing the VK test simply because they're human. Empathy is tied to having a soul, and all humans possess a soul by virtue of our birth. That's why Deckard can experience God despite God not existing. He has a soul and can see past crude reality, something a rep can't do.

Something that walks like a duck and quacks like a duck is not necessarily a duck. A duck must have the soul of a duck. Anything else, no matter how convincing, is an imitation.

That's what I mean by proving too much. If replicants look, walk and quack like humans but lack souls, how are we sure humans themselves have a soul? There is a theory in Christian theology - traducianism - that argues the soul is transferred generationally and the new soul of an infant is derived from the souls of the parents. However, this is scientifically unfit and can not be resolved. There are no grounds on which to argue biological birth is the origination of a soul in the first place.

The novel had a device called the empathy box where you would hook the player up to it and he would experience the crucifixion of Christ. Humans would feel Christ's pain as he's pelted with rocks and nailed to the cross. Experience the program to the end and you will literally die. Reps experience none of this. They don't feel pain when playing the empathy box. That's proof they don't have a soul.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I'm not sure what this thread is trying to establish, but if it was convincing me that I have no desire to play anything cyberpunk related with Lacrymas then it has been resoundingly successful!

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I'm not sure what this thread is trying to establish, but if it was convincing me that I have no desire to play anything cyberpunk related with Lacrymas then it has been resoundingly successful!

I wouldn't want to play anything with Lacrymas as the DM, especially if it is - God forbid - a homebrewed setting.

 

[Lacrymas]

The novel had a device called the empathy box where you would hook the player up to it and he would experience the crucifixion of Christ. Humans would feel Christ's pain as he's pelted with rocks and nailed to the cross. Experience the program to the end and you will literally die. Reps experience none of this. They don't feel pain when playing the empathy box. That's proof they don't have a soul.

The logical leap from lack of empathy to a lack of a soul is enormous, however. Even if the empathy box and VK are 100% correct and replicants indeed don't have empathy, that doesn't prove they don't have souls or that humans have souls. Empathy = soul is arbitrary and as scientifically unfit as traducianism. It also doesn't resolve the question of whether replicants are specifically designed to fail the VK test or the empathy box in order to keep them subservient and outlawed for the benefit of corporations. Measuring the worth of humans in terms of souls is also an ideological (essentially Christian) position

 

[True Ukrainian]

The novel had a device called the empathy box where you would hook the player up to it and he would experience the crucifixion of Christ. Humans would feel Christ's pain as he's pelted with rocks and nailed to the cross. Experience the program to the end and you will literally die. Reps experience none of this. They don't feel pain when playing the empathy box. That's proof they don't have a soul.

The logical leap from lack of empathy to a lack of a soul is enormous, however. Even if the empathy box and VK are 100% correct and replicants indeed don't have empathy, that doesn't prove they don't have souls. Empathy = soul is arbitrary and as scientifically unfit as traducianism. It also doesn't resolve the question of whether replicants are specifically designed to fail the VK test or the empathy box in order to keep them subservient and outlawed for the benefit of corporations.

If a rep is built to be indistinguishable from a human, he should experience life like a human. The fact that reps are immune to the empathy box is proof that they ultimately are not human.