Shadowrun Shadowrun Returns Pre-Release Thread

[Silva]

Will this game have a Seattle overview map ?

I like maps.

 

[eric__s]

can we please just stop posting for like 20 minutes or however long it takes for the game to come out? because atm this topic is basically a septic tank.

 

[Infinitron]

RPS preview: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/07/25/wot-i-think-shadowrun-returns/

I can report that:

a) It’s not particularly long, I got through it in about 12 hours, without rushing too much. This, I suspect, is the thing that will disappoint most. But get to the end of the review, because there is light at the end of the shadow.

b) The writing (there’s no voice acting) ranges from schlocky to completely superb, with the overall story feel a bit too like a generic Shadowrun campaign, but maybe that’s the point. It’s great fun, is the point. You will enjoy it.

c) The big baddy creatures were just dreadful. Shadowrun is a game that basically allows anything to happen in it, and we can do better than this. Much better. I mean, they worked, but the drama was lacking. “Oh. This.”

d) It looks right, throughout. As isometric cyberpunk worlds go, this one is spot on. The rain-sopped streets with crowds of people holding umbrellas, the corporate meeting rooms and dank basements. The animation and detail are a bit lacking, but it felt incredible authentic somehow, particular your “base” area for much of the game. Great stuff.

It’s a competently and intelligently written RPG, though. I can’t stress this enough: compared to the heaving tide of shit that we face with most games, this is splendid literature. There’s a bunch of backstory to explore, and some character-handling choices that do actually affect what happens. The characters are imaginative, it even made me laugh, and there are even a few genuinely surprising and clever conceits. The plot twists are rubbish, sadly, but you can’t have everything. There are also a few very silly episodes, such as a battle in an asylum which becomes unlikely when guards have grenades, and imprisoned in-mates have shotguns. Yes.

There’s another aspect to the overall offering of Shadowrun Returns, though, and it’s clear from the moment you start playing: this is a game that is set up as a toolkit. Sure, they’re shipping a professionally made campaign that probably supports a couple of playthroughs, but what they’reactually shipping is a full-blown campaign editor and the system to easily distribute campaigns. Even the Harebrained official campaigned is packaged as just another story among all those that the community will inevitably create. It basically supports a new community. Hell, I’m tempted myself. I can’t stress how important this is.

This is going to be awesome.

 

[crawlkill]

Do you ever get the impression that a lot of RPG players get way too much of their sense of self-worth out of their ability to complete video games? The obsession with games being sooper haaard is confusing to me, not least because it's such a completely subjective metric (and then that same need to be Good At Vidya Games creatues a situation in which they need to -claim- they had an easy time of it even if they didn't).

I think the last time I worried about whether I was "good" at a game or not as any kind of personal quality I saw as meaningful was when my age was in the single digits. Many things are interesting without being particularly challenging (see every other medium ever for examples of cool things that aren't difficult). Few RPGs are genuinely hard, because ultimately they're just ramming numbers up against one another, and numbers are easy to outsmart. What are you expecting, exactly? A game where the numbers are routinely smarter than you are? Smarter than the community? It isn't gonna happen. The unfortunate fact is that the only way to make a game actually "difficult" in such a way that moderately sentient play and a basic understanding of the mechanics won't break it is to include action elements, and you know how that shit gets received around here.

The Codex would be a lot happier if it would decouple from this idea that hard=good (or even hard=possible). A game (with more than one "challenge mechanic," in Sawyer's words) is a round, whole experience.

 

[Vault Dweller]

can we please just stop posting for like 20 minutes or however long it takes for the game to come out? because atm this topic is basically a septic tank.

1 hour and 15 min. Plenty of time to kill each other.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

No no no no no don't start an argument with VD about what a true CRPG is

Infinitron what was that thread which had that argument? can't seem to recal/findl it. Still an hour to kill before SRR.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

WHY I CAN'T DOWNLOAD GAME YET.

 

[Zeriel]

Do you ever get the impression that a lot of RPG players get way too much of their sense of self-worth out of their ability to complete video games? The obsession with games being sooper haaard is confusing to me, not least because it's such a completely subjective metric (and then that same need to be Good At Vidya Games creatues a situation in which they need to -claim- they had an easy time of it even if they didn't).

I think the last time I worried about whether I was "good" at a game or not as any kind of personal quality I saw as meaningful was when my age was in the single digits. Many things are interesting without being particularly challenging (see every other medium ever for examples of cool things that aren't difficult). Few RPGs are genuinely hard, because ultimately they're just ramming numbers up against one another, and numbers are easy to outsmart. What are you expecting, exactly? A game where the numbers are routinely smarter than you are? Smarter than the community? It isn't gonna happen. The unfortunate fact is that the only way to make a game actually "difficult" in such a way that moderately sentient play and a basic understanding of the mechanics won't break it is to include action elements, and you know how that shit gets received around here.

The Codex would be a lot happier if it would decouple from this idea that hard=good (or even hard=possible). A game (with more than one "challenge mechanic," in Sawyer's words) is a round, whole experience.

Some people get really, really bored if the game doesn't put up any resistance. It's not specific to games, the same thing happens in life all the time. This isn't a very complicated concept, but I think there's a lot of misunderstanding over it because the ideal "challenge level" varies so intensely from one person to the next. And then you have those who can manage a higher challenge level taking a deep, steamy shit on the chests of those who can't.

 

[Wizfall]

Fallout 1/2 combats were so hard and complex that i still have bad dreams about it.

What shitty games they were.

They offered more than combat, didn't they?

And Shadowrun may offer more than combat no ?

So far, based on the reviews and Darth's impressions, it doesn't seem to be the case, does it?

You are wrong because he has massive enjoyment for the game while he says combats are only "good for what it is" (to summarize).
I let you guess what you are missing.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

can we please just stop posting for like 20 minutes or however long it takes for the game to come out? because atm this topic is basically a septic tank.

Anything to kill the time, boss.

 

[Aeschylus]

can we please just stop posting for like 20 minutes or however long it takes for the game to come out? because atm this topic is basically a septic tank.

Eh, it's still better than your average day on the Project Eternity thread.

Besides, it's kind of seminal moment. It's the first of the big Kickstarter RPGs to be released, even if it is the one with the lowest budget and (in some ways) least ambitious scope. How good the game is and how it is received could do a lot to influence how this stuff moves forward in the future, so it's only logical that people would be a bit more up-in-arms than usual about it, on one side or another.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Do you ever get the impression that a lot of RPG players get way too much of their sense of self-worth out of their ability to complete video games? The obsession with games being sooper haaard is confusing to me, not least because it's such a completely subjective metric (and then that same need to be Good At Vidya Games creatues a situation in which they need to -claim- they had an easy time of it even if they didn't).

It has nothing to do with being good at games. It has to do with challenge being the source of entertainment. If I can mindlessly click on enemies and they die, it's not very entertaining. If I have to figure out how to beat them, what tactics to use, try, fail, and eventually beat an encounter, that's very entertaining at least for me.

People play chess for the same reason - it's not about winning and being the best, it's about enjoying the challenge of a good game.

 

[buzz]

crawlkill I don't think most people want a "hard" game as much as they want "complex" games. Wizardry 4 was hard but I wouldn't call it complex. Whereas Jagged Alliance 2 was complex but it didn't bust my balls with unfair difficulty.

 

[tuluse]

So shipping with editor so that community can design the game for developer is now universally approved.

Welcome to 2002.

Plus every Bethesda game ever made.

I just noticed that the game on Steam is only $3 more than it was if you ordered it on kickstarter; the deluxe edition only $1.50 more. Way to give a kick in the nuts to people that invested in this glorified tablet game with its castrated editor in the first place.

I know others have said it already, but backers got the "deluxe edition" for $15. Also, I don't care if they charged $5 for this game on release. The point was to fund a game I wanted to play, not to get a deal. If anyone is butthurt over the pricing, they should not be crowd funding.

 

[crawlkill]

Infinitron's quoted review

that sounds so, so much more specific and optimistic than the rest of the reviews. I think I'm content there. hang on, I'm opening your shitty smily menu for the first time.

 

[Darth Roxor]

If more difficulty mean more enemies abilities unlocked instead of HP bloat then it could be good.

As far as I can tell, the hard difficulty improves enemy AI. No HP bloat. Mighty slightly tinker with enemy stats in general, but I'm not particularly sure about that.

 

[evdk]

No no no no no don't start an argument with VD about what a true CRPG is

Infinitron what was that thread which had that argument? can't seem to recal/findl it. Still an hour to kill before SRR.

Oh, it's not just one thread.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

No no no no no don't start an argument with VD about what a true CRPG is

Infinitron what was that thread which had that argument? can't seem to recal/findl it. Still an hour to kill before SRR.

Oh, it's not just one thread.

the latest one will do since I stopped visiting the PE thread due to too much sperging.

 

[Aeschylus]

No no no no no don't start an argument with VD about what a true CRPG is

Infinitron what was that thread which had that argument? can't seem to recal/findl it. Still an hour to kill before SRR.

Oh, it's not just one thread.

the latest one will do since I stopped visiting the PE thread due to too much sperging.

Don't say you weren't warned...

Spoiler

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/what-is-a-full-scale-rpg.84711/

 

[tuluse]

It started in the Anthony Davis thread, but a mod pulled it out and made a new thread out of it.

 

[evdk]

No no no no no don't start an argument with VD about what a true CRPG is

Infinitron what was that thread which had that argument? can't seem to recal/findl it. Still an hour to kill before SRR.

Oh, it's not just one thread.

the latest one will do since I stopped visiting the PE thread due to too much sperging.

And you want to read one of VD-Infinitron debates instead? DOes not compute.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You are wrong because he has massive enjoyment for the game while he says combats are only "good for what it is" (to summarize).

Massive enjoyment is a very subjective concept that tells you little. If I'm told that a game is challenging and tactical, I know I will enjoy it. If I'm told that the game is mostly about combat but combat is easy, the game is linear, the dialogues are Biowaresque but well written, there are balance issues, but the story and music are good and the game is super enjoyable, I'm not sure if I'd find it equally enjoyable.

 

[NotTale]

Do you ever get the impression that a lot of RPG players get way too much of their sense of self-worth out of their ability to complete video games? The obsession with games being sooper haaard is confusing to me, not least because it's such a completely subjective metric (and then that same need to be Good At Vidya Games creatues a situation in which they need to -claim- they had an easy time of it even if they didn't).

I think the last time I worried about whether I was "good" at a game or not as any kind of personal quality I saw as meaningful was when my age was in the single digits. Many things are interesting without being particularly challenging (see every other medium ever for examples of cool things that aren't difficult). Few RPGs are genuinely hard, because ultimately they're just ramming numbers up against one another, and numbers are easy to outsmart. What are you expecting, exactly? A game where the numbers are routinely smarter than you are? Smarter than the community? It isn't gonna happen. The unfortunate fact is that the only way to make a game actually "difficult" in such a way that moderately sentient play and a basic understanding of the mechanics won't break it is to include action elements, and you know how that shit gets received around here.

The Codex would be a lot happier if it would decouple from this idea that hard=good (or even hard=possible). A game (with more than one "challenge mechanic," in Sawyer's words) is a round, whole experience.

Two things here. I like the "whole experience" idea. A game should not inherently be defined by its challenge. It should be defined by what it's trying to do and how well it does at that. If what it's trying to do is tell a story, let people immerse themselves in a fictional world, waste time, or just make people happy with simple gratification, cool. Challenge is absolutely not necessary for those games.

However, challenge can be to gameplay what clever writing is to a story. Intellectual challenges, those of choice making and strategy, make you think. And this should be seen as an inherent good. Just not a necessary one.

So I absolutely do favor and enjoy a game to have some challenge (perhaps my goalpost wouldn't be as high as others though), but I'm able to appreciate one without if it makes for good ideas in its other elements.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

No no no no no don't start an argument with VD about what a true CRPG is

Infinitron what was that thread which had that argument? can't seem to recal/findl it. Still an hour to kill before SRR.

Oh, it's not just one thread.

the latest one will do since I stopped visiting the PE thread due to too much sperging.

Don't say you weren't warned...

Spoiler

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/what-is-a-full-scale-rpg.84711/

No no no no no don't start an argument with VD about what a true CRPG is

Infinitron what was that thread which had that argument? can't seem to recal/findl it. Still an hour to kill before SRR.

Oh, it's not just one thread.

the latest one will do since I stopped visiting the PE thread due to too much sperging.

And you want to read one of VD-Infinitron debates instead? DOes not compute.

I don't care how others define a "cRPG' is. i'll enjoy shit either way. PE sperging ts to lengthy for em to follow. Atleast this is only 6 pages, and has VD (an indie cRPG developer with actual ballz) and the worst Jew ever who does real work for imaginary money.

 

[tuluse]

You liked Expeditions: Conquistador which was not very challenging. Though it had real roleplaying, which it sounds like SRR will not.

Edit For Vault Dweller of course