Shadowrun Shadowrun Returns Pre-Release Thread

[almondblight]

It looks very nice, though I couldn't help but get annoyed over the fact that the tactics seemed to be rush into room A, empty ammo clips and shoot fireballs, then rush into room B and repeat. Hopefully the PC's were overpowered for the demo, or this is a very early mission that the devs decided to make to easy. Apparently opportunity fire is in, so that should help too. Worst case scenario, at least the editor looks good, and hopefully people can make some challenging campaigns there.

Did anyone else find Mitch Gitelman annoying? He comes off as part of the new-Vogel school that RPG's are about power fantasies and not challenge. He was also executive producer of the Shadowrun FPS, and writes comments like this on the forums:

You mean rather than telling you specifically where to go so you can explore? Hmm. Okay, I'll think about that. Thanks!

Letting people explore instead of telling them exactly where to go next? Hmm...what a novel idea!

Jordan comes off as a bro, though.

 

[OSK]

He was also executive producer of the Shadowrun FPS

 

[uaciaut]

Loot systems = depth? WoW must be a pretty deep game.

Mmm hmm. Remember when some guise here pitched a fit when ME2 removed inventory? Or VD complaining about how he couldn't loot bodies in AP's tutorial?

Oh but it's okay if a ~party-based turned-based game~ leaves it out, here's a bunch of words to justify streamlining.

It's ~okay when a game that got sponsored through kickstarter with 1/20 of ME's budget and probably less than half AP's budget is sacrificing a potential loot system because they're distributing the cash into other shit that improves other aspects of the game. It's not okay to compare Shadowrun in any aspect to ME2 or AP to be honest because they're pretty far apart not only budget-wise like i said but they're different types of RPG's to begin with. Unless you're saying that ME's main strength is storyline and tactical, strategic TB combat with multiple character control, complex magic system that goes beyond 2-3 tech/pshycher (or whatever they were called) abilities, etc.

I do like looting system as much as anyone else and then some, but i had very low expectations of the project to begin with (which you'd know if you actually read the rest of my post instead of just trying to pull out the stuff that best suits you) and the fact that they managed to far exceed said expectations simply makes me a happy camper. And if the game is really decent and the editor is also decent i think it will garner enough interest and item-related issues (including looting) won't really be an issue for long, whereas shitty NPC writing, shitty combat systems and shitty storyline tend to stay a problem DESPITE a good looting system

I also really don't get why you're actually putting this much effort into trying to make everyone as skeptical as possible about this shit. You've got a lot of free time that you're spending in an odd way. Besides you already got your point out enough that you'll have plenty of space to say "i told you so" if you turn out to be right and Shadowrun ends up being really bad, whereas if it turns out really good the more you insist on it being bad because "no loot system" the worse you look, not that you necessarily care D:

 

[Kem0sabe]

I´m still trying to understand what possessed MS to ok a Shadowrun online fps, the brand was in no way directed towards that approach.

 

[GarfunkeL]

It started out as a very lore-friendly Shadowrun FPS/RPG-hybrid, which is probably why Mitch signed up for it. Then M$ did the usual publisher thing:
1. Oh, we can't have both races and classes, that's too confusing so now race = class, AWESOME
2. Oh, we can save money here by not having orcs in the game since orcs are just smaller trolls, right? AWESOME
3. Nobody gives a shit about customization, skills, weaponry and perks and all that, they just want to shoot people up, so let's ditch the RPG-aspect and go with pure FPS. AWESOME
4. Magic? Just make it like weapons, except change the GFX a little. Cyber and Matrix? Bleh, sounds like nerd stuff, axe it all away. AWESOME
5. Stupid fucking fans whining, they are just stuck in the 20th century, this is the new shit. AWESOME

Game bombs like nothing before. BLAME PIRACY!

 

[Gozma]

Big companies sometimes use totally abstract metrics to measure how known an IP is, literally shit like how many times it comes up if you webcrawl for it, that kind of thing. They decide to make a game of a certain genre, look through the bag of IPs they own for something with a useable popularity score, and make the game.

 

[tuluse]

Mmm hmm. Remember when some guise here pitched a fit when ME2 removed inventory? Or VD complaining about how he couldn't loot bodies in AP's tutorial?

Oh but it's okay if a ~party-based turned-based game~ leaves it out, here's a bunch of words to justify streamlining.

Are you implyng the codex is some kind of hive-mind? Tsk tsk, Roguey.

I don't mind the lack of loot here, I don't mind it in AoD either.

I did mind it in ME2, but only as symptom of turning the game further into a shooter and less of an RPG.

the new-Vogel school that RPG's are about power fantasies

Lol @ thinking RPGs were ever anything but power fantasies.

 

[JarlFrank]

I don't mind the lack of loot here, I don't mind it in AoD either.

Last time I checked AoD had dead guys drop all their inventory.

 

[tuluse]

I don't mind the lack of loot here, I don't mind it in AoD either.

Last time I checked AoD had dead guys drop all their inventory.

I don't know if I played the most recent update, but last time I checked there were plenty of fights where as soon as it ends you get teleported away and aren't given a chance to loot.

 

[JarlFrank]

Well, but if it's a fight where you don't get teleported away, you can loot everyone. In fact, I just played yesterday and most fights let you stay and loot.

 

[Grunker]

He was also executive producer of the Shadowrun FPS

 

[tuluse]

Well, but if it's a fight where you don't get teleported away, you can loot everyone. In fact, I just played yesterday and most fights let you stay and loot.

I must not have played one of the more recent releases then.

 

[almondblight]

Lol @ thinking RPGs were ever anything but power fantasies.

Yeah. RPG's all really wanted to be 3D action games with an "awesome" button, they just lacked the technology before.

 

[tuluse]

Lol @ thinking RPGs were ever anything but power fantasies.

Yeah. RPG's all really wanted to be 3D action games with an "awesome" button, they just lacked the technology before.

There are different kinds of power fantasies and over coming "challenges" is one of them

 

[Zeriel]

I'd rather have turn-based, tactical combat with all the awesomeness they've baked in, amazing looking 2D art, all at this rather low funding level, than an inventory system. I think that's all people are saying, really--sure, inventory system would be good, it's definitely disappointing, but everything else about this project blows every other KS RPG out of the water and into the next solar system.

 

[almondblight]

Lol @ thinking RPGs were ever anything but power fantasies.

Yeah. RPG's all really wanted to be 3D action games with an "awesome" button, they just lacked the technology before.

There are different kinds of power fantasies and over coming "challenges" is one of them

Maybe read the post before hitting reply?

He comes off as part of the new-Vogel school that RPG's are about power fantasies and not challenge.

Players hate to lose. You're in the Adolescent Power Fantasy business, after all. If the player has every reason to expect that they should be winning, you should let them win.

 

[Zeriel]

It's strange. Vogel's earlier games (Exile) had challenging fights. Did he adopt that notion later on, after deciding he wanted a vacation home?

 

[tuluse]

I read your post, but I had no idea what Vogel actually said, all I know is that RPGs are power fantasies, and always have been.

 

[Roguey]

Are you implyng the codex is some kind of hive-mind? Tsk tsk, Roguey.

Not at all. That's why I said some. Not these guise. Some other guise. My posts are for them, the kind who value looting as a pillar of RPG play. I don't really care much at all about looting and welcome not having to deal with tedious inventory management (since there won't be any).

It's strange. Vogel's earlier games (Exile) had challenging fights. Did he adopt that notion later on, after deciding he wanted a vacation home?

I played Exile III for hours (up through the alien slime boss) and didn't find anything challenging about it.

 

[Zeriel]

Are you implyng the codex is some kind of hive-mind? Tsk tsk, Roguey.

Not at all. That's why I said some. Not these guise. Some other guise. My posts are for them, the kind who value looting as a pillar of RPG play. I don't really care much at all about looting and welcome not having to deal with tedious inventory management (since there won't be any).

It's strange. Vogel's earlier games (Exile) had challenging fights. Did he adopt that notion later on, after deciding he wanted a vacation home?

I played Exile III for hours (up through the alien slime boss) and didn't find anything challenging about it.

3 wasn't very difficult, but 1 & 2 had some interesting fights. Admittedly, a lot of the hard fights came down to 'find really hard area, go somewhere else until you level up past it'. Still, I have vague memories of mid-to-late-game imperial and demon/haakai fights in 1 & 2 being fairly rough. Although like most RPGs there were specific things you could exploit to make the game easy, once you knew the game inside out.

 

[Roguey]

3 wasn't very difficult, but 1 & 2 had some interesting fights. Admittedly, a lot of the hard fights came down to 'find really hard area, go somewhere else until you level up past it'. Still, I have vague memories of mid-to-late-game imperial and demon/haakai fights in 1 & 2 being fairly rough. Although like most RPGs there were specific things you could exploit to make the game easy, once you knew the game inside out.

Oh, I "cleared" out the first area of 1 but couldn't stand playing any more because of the awful inventory interface and the rate of respawning.

 

[Zetor]

Exile 3 wasn't really hard until golems and doomguards started showing up and I tried doing some of the 'big artifact' dungeons (like the one with no mana regen). In fact, the golems were probably even tougher than the (spoiler) enemies near the end...

 

[almondblight]

It's strange. Vogel's earlier games (Exile) had challenging fights. Did he adopt that notion later on, after deciding he wanted a vacation home?

I was looking for another quote of his where he basically says, "When I was young I wanted things to be challenging in a game, but you know what? Life is challenging, I want games to be about me being awesome and destroying everyone." I mean, I suspect that some of it is dumbing things down for the masses, but I think a large portion of it too is him becoming a gamer that likes more dumbed down games. Check out his blog posts and you'll see a lot of that (the PC in Mass Effect 3 is too ugly and the player shouldn't feel like an ugly person, old games are awful and unplayable, etc.).

Yeah, I found Geneforge (which I guess is mid-career Vogel) to have a nice level of challenge. I have fond memories of being offed by crystals when I didn't expect it, being surrounded and demolished by cryodrakes, running into a wall of creations that I couldn't defeat defending that shaper guys layer, etc. I got hit with a messy ending since I had taken the power of the geneforge and returned to conquer...but had forgotten to cover my tracks.

I don't remember the Exiles so well since it's been a while since I played them, but I remember that you could find yourself in tough situations if you set out exploring.

 

[Zeriel]

It's strange. Vogel's earlier games (Exile) had challenging fights. Did he adopt that notion later on, after deciding he wanted a vacation home?

I was looking for another quote of his where he basically says, "When I was young I wanted things to be challenging in a game, but you know what? Life is challenging, I want games to be about me being awesome and destroying everyone." I mean, I suspect that some of it is dumbing things down for the masses, but I think a large portion of it too is him becoming a gamer that likes more dumbed down games. Check out his blog posts and you'll see a lot of that (the PC in Mass Effect 3 is too ugly and the player shouldn't feel like an ugly person, old games are awful and unplayable, etc.).

Yeah, I found Geneforge (which I guess is mid-career Vogel) to have a nice level of challenge. I have fond memories of being offed by crystals when I didn't expect it, being surrounded and demolished by cryodrakes, running into a wall of creations that I couldn't defeat defending that shaper guys layer, etc. I got hit with a messy ending since I had taken the power of the geneforge and returned to conquer...but had forgotten to cover my tracks.

I don't remember the Exiles so well since it's been a while since I played them, but I remember that you could find yourself in tough situations if you set out exploring.

I suppose it goes back to ye olde saying, "you are what you eat." Play exclusively dumb games and you just end up liking/making dumb games yourself. It was this sort of thing that made me despair for ever seeing old-school RPGs again before Kickstarter happened. In a way, I feel sorry for the people who have ever only played corridor shooters. They really _do_ believe that DOS era games were inferior in every way, because they never experienced it for themselves.

 

[tuluse]

I have a question about Shadowrun in general, is there any super stealth technology in the game like active camo or cloaking devices or anything like that?