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Incline Shoot'em up goodness (review and discuss)

Nutmeg

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It ranks high when it comes to single loop clears, and somewhere in the middle if you include 2-ALLs and higher. The Japanese give DDP and Mushihimesama Futari Maniac 17, while RSG gets a 25

Source

I get filtered by this guy



The player here relies on slowing the game down with the B + C shot, which I didn't try.
 
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Lutte

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Ugh imgur is down.

Anyway I got a 1CC on Touhou EOSD on easy. Pretty easy clear, got it on my 7th attempt. Perhaps these are the key to incrementally becoming a better shmupper? I know a lot of the best Western arcade game players started on or still play a lot of Touhou.

IMO at least EOSD and Perfect Cherry Blossom on easy/normal aren't nearly as fun as the better arcade shmups. But they are probably as fun as the better 16-bit shmups, and better shmups all round than almost every 16-bit game based on objective qualities (non broken scoring, pacing etc.).

Also I think Radiant Silvergun really rewired my definition of "long" shmup lol. EOSD felt massively short.
I love the touhou for the artistry in the way bullet patterns look and the music but..

Pacing is one of touhou's biggest issue compared to arcade shmups (I don't care too much for the 16bit home console era shmups and can't comment on those). The games, with some exceptions, tend to only really feel like they're getting "real" when you reach stage 4. I had the most fun with UFO because its resource collection system spices things up even in the early stages. And Touhou 15 point device mode grew on me for its 'bite sized challenge' nature that pushes you to perfect the whole game, resetting you to the beginning of a spell or stage segment whenever you die and discouraging bomb use because of their rarity.

I don't think most touhou teach the genre well when it comes to us non-super-players who are just content with 1ccing games and don't play for scoring mechanics (doing a basic 1cc of a typical arcade shmup is already enough challenge for me, the sort of thing involved in a high score run tends to be a little offkilter), because most of the games are too generous with resources. The worst two offenders are PCB and TD, the border and trance mechanic are added on top of an already reaaaaaaally plentiful bomb and life stock and the only thing that would prevent an average player from 1ccing those games is being too stingy with resource usage, for you can spam this shit to high heavan to nullify the harder segments of the games. I think the much, much weaker bombing of subterranean animism is what gave it its status among touhou players as being the hardest of the series before 15. SA has the most pitiful bombs of the series, and combined with the power loss every time you bomb, making you spend more time on spell cards and thus make mistakes more likely as you concentrate for longer throws off people used to just annihilating what they can't deal with. MoF has the power loss mechanic too but the bombs are much more useful and the spell patterns are a lot more gentle apart from Stage 4 which feels out of place compared to how gentle the rest of the game is (if you can deal with stage 4 without ruining your life stock, you can finish the game, pretty much).
 

Nutmeg

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The games, with some exceptions, tend to only really feel like they're getting "real" when you reach stage 4.
Yeah that was exactly how EoSD felt. Patchouli's stage is just a huge jump in difficulty compared to Rumia, Cirno and Hong Meling's.

Typical 16-bit shmup pacing is even more skewed towards the tail end. You can see this even in e.g. Mahou Daisakusen, which was babby console dev's first arcade effort. You can breeze through everything up to the boss rush beginning with stage 5's boss, and cumulating with the fight against Gigafacer. Another arcade game with this kind of pacing is Hotdog Storm, where the final boss is an incredible step up in difficulty.

I had the most fun with UFO because its resource collection system spices things up even in the early stages
I've seen many recommendations for this one. I am avoiding it cause I'm just using Touhou as danmaku pattern training for now, and the UFO system seems to go beyond that, but it's one I'm actually interested in playing.

The other ones I'm interested in to actually have fun with are Fairy Wars, the photo ones and the T:SS clones PoDD (played a bit of this one already, actually) and PoFV.

for the artistry in the way bullet patterns look
I like the ones in Psyvariar. I put the game in the same school as Radirgy, i.e. an evolution of Compile's invulnerability chaining.
 
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Silentstorm

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I will say, i just find shmups pleasing to look at and fun to play, but i try to just beat them with an acceptable level of lives based on how hard the game is, and i don't go for scoring, going really too hard for 1CC(if the game is really damn hard) or scoring feel like investing too much time in a way that could ruin enjoyment for me.

But i guess the genre tends to attract the hardcore crowd a bit too much, part of the reason why i really enjoy ZeroRanger?

You can start at the last level you lost with any loadout, and you go there with full continues, you can start right at the last stage, beat the final boss and still see the ending, you can 1CC from the start and starting at a later stage obviously doesn't lead to the best possible score but that is the point, it gives more options and chances for newcomers or people who are a bit less hardcore while still giving normal options for the really hardcore crowd.

...Which is something i wish more games in the genre did, like, Touhou actively takes away content if you play the games at the easiest difficulties and the creator himself has asked people to not post endings online because fuck anyone who plays on easy or can't beat his games at all, thankfully, some fans ignore the request but damn me if that doesn't seem to fit the attitude of a really hardcore gamer who hates casuals.
 

Nutmeg

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It's a matter of player education.

Players are obviously prepared to spend 40+ hours or whatever before they see a game through. Take any action adventure or RPG, for example.

Shmups are not meant to be very different. They're also meant to give you 10s if not 100s of hours of play. It's just instead of giving you 1000s of trivial challenges and filler you can breeze through half asleep (why do players want this?), they give you a handful of meaningful challenges you really need to think through, understand and master.

IMO the latter is more meaningful and feels better than just the kind of skinnerboxed cyoa tv show every other "game" genre has devolved to. Like I want my brain to actually be activated while I game, and the "hardcore" arcade format provides this.
 
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Falksi

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Falksi Nice. Surprised you gave TF4 only 3/5. But I guess if you didn't like the OST that makes sense. I love it. I listen to it by itself very often.

Timestamped to one of the best tracks in gaming, IMO:



The gameplay has some cool ideas, I like the huge amount of vertical space to "explore", and I also like the use of 3/4 view so you get vert-like background enemies in your hori e.g. in the desert stage (one of the opening 4).


Ever since you posted this, I must have listened to the metal version almost every day.

What a fucking track.

 

Silentstorm

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Talk about a franchise i wish would come back, hey, Sega, bring back Thunder Force and Fantasy Zone too while you're at it.

Speaking of old classics coming back, man, anyone else going to buy R-Type Final 2 when it comes out?

From there, the only major mainstream classic that really needs to come back would be Gradius, but with the state of Konami these days...at best one can hope for another arcade collection, wouldn't mind a Gradius collection though...and a Parodius one for that matter.
 

Silentstorm

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Well, beat a RPG, when i get the time to play games again, will absolutely check out Radiant Silvergun at long last!

Also, can twin-stick shooters be talked about here or not?

There are some fun ones, one that is really cheap and fun is Akane...which makes me wish it got more content, i recall having fun with Tesla VS Lovecraft years ago and just found out it has a sequel, heavily considering getting that game too.
 

distant

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I've only played the big ones (Crimson Clover, CAVE, Ikaruga) and I found this game to be right up there. Visually it's minimal but clean and I found that it helped a lot with tracking patterns (which were really good). Also you can play much more aggressively with bullet cancels and a skill system.

Cool game.
 

Falksi

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Great Deceiver Licorice and anyone else, just wanting to get your thoughts on Forgotten Worlds?

Been playing it the past few weeks on both the Megadrive & Arcade emulators, and it's surprising how much they differ to say they are the same game.

Also wondering what your thoughts are regards the arcade's difficulty level?
 

Silentstorm

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With my Xbox, decided to try VALA since it was offered for free on Gold and...meh, you'd think a twin-stick shooter where you control a mech and shoot evil llamas rampaging on a city would be more crazy or fun, you'd be wrong, the novelty ran out way too fast.

Radiant Silvergun is great, only tried Story Mode, all i knew about the game really was that it's Treasure's first shmup and thus i wasn't expecting the ship to have so many damn weapons...some seem more useful than others so far, whatever, this damn ship is loaded with guns, every button is a weapon and that's amazing.
 

Nutmeg

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Forgotten Worlds
Looks awesome but the arcade release is meant to be played with a dial IIRC (or was it rotary stick?) and since I don't have one I am holding off.

I also heard good things about the PCE port.

every button
The arcade release had only 3 buttons, and you chorded them. Hence the three letter leveling system, that also corresponds to how the other weapons level up e.g. search laser is B + C, sword is A + B + C.

Incidentally I found it more comfy to play with just 3 buttons instead of 7 on my stick.
 
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Forgotten Worlds

Played the Genesis port to death, I bought it on release. It was a pretty good port considering that, as Licorice said, they had to adapt the arcade's rotary controls for something that would make sense on a 3-button pad and they could have done a lot worse. It is much, MUCH easier than the arcade version, though, and even as a kid I was able to beat it on one life. The arcade version is fucking brutal, but I don't have a rotary stick so I've never bothered to learn it properly.

All things considered, I don't think it's a very remarkable game at all. The shop concept was done better in other Capcom arcade games, like Willow (not a shmup but if you're into sidescrollers at all, go check it out. Arcade Willow is legit one of Capcom's best games ever)
 

Falksi

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Forgotten Worlds
Looks awesome but the arcade release is meant to be played with a dial IIRC (or was it rotary stick?) and since I don't have one I am holding off.

I also heard good things about the PCE port.

every button
The arcade release had only 3 buttons, and you chorded them. Hence the three letter leveling system, that also corresponds to how the other weapons level up e.g. search laser is B + C, sword is A + B + C.

Incidentally I found it more comfy to play with just 3 buttons instead of 7 on my stick.

Forgotten Worlds

Played the Genesis port to death, I bought it on release. It was a pretty good port considering that, as Licorice said, they had to adapt the arcade's rotary controls for something that would make sense on a 3-button pad and they could have done a lot worse. It is much, MUCH easier than the arcade version, though, and even as a kid I was able to beat it on one life. The arcade version is fucking brutal, but I don't have a rotary stick so I've never bothered to learn it properly.

All things considered, I don't think it's a very remarkable game at all. The shop concept was done better in other Capcom arcade games, like Willow (not a shmup but if you're into sidescrollers at all, go check it out. Arcade Willow is legit one of Capcom's best games ever)

Nice one dudes.

Yeah, out of the two versions I gotta say that I prefer the Megadrive version so far. The arcade gets brutally difficult later on, and circling + pre-shooting areas where enemies are programmed to appear seems the only way to stay alive so far. Which is far harder & less fun with a traditional stick setup then with the rotary stick.

The Megadrive version's auto-fire option nails the controls best. It is is easy-ish, but you do only get one life so I'm not to bothered about that. I just see the challenge in going for points and saving up Zenny's for the dress, which means I don't buy any rejuvenation potions so as Drago would say if I die, I die.

They could have made a cool cheesy 80's/90's flick out of this with Dolph & JCVD in the lead roles.
 

Nutmeg

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BTW like World of Longplays, Paul Eales' YT is one to avoid for checking out games.

His runs are obviously Tool Assisted, he doesn't make note of it, and his play is way off. It's far too reliant on superhuman reflexes that not even world record holders have and almost no good strats or tactics.

He finishes Radiant Silvergun with Lv 11 weapons for example so he's having these long ass fights with bosses cause he's doing next to no damage and miraculously dodging wave after wave of bullets with no mistakes.

Completel bullshit.

You might thing "prfft who cares, I just want to see what the game plays like" but that's the problem. You won't see. You'll se something very different to how an actual human can actually play the game and how it actually plays.
 

Nutmeg

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I just see the challenge in going for points and saving up Zenny's for the dress, which means I don't buy any rejuvenation potions so as Drago would say if I die, I die.
I like this way of scoring.

Winds of Thunder does the same. Problem there is the game literally shows your final score (where all the in game currency is converted to points) for a whole 2 seconds before proceeding to the credits and there's not even a "hi" count when you start again lol.

I didn't know this, and I didn't screenshot my 1CC in time so I'll never know wtf my score was.
 

Falksi

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BTW like World of Longplays, Paul Eales' YT is one to avoid for checking out games.

His runs are obviously Tool Assisted, he doesn't make note of it, and his play is way off. It's far too reliant on superhuman reflexes that not even world record holders have and almost no good strats or tactics.

He finishes Radiant Silvergun with Lv 11 weapons for example so he's having these long ass fights with bosses cause he's doing next to no damage and miraculously dodging wave after wave of bullets with no mistakes.

Completel bullshit.

You might thing "prfft who cares, I just want to see what the game plays like" but that's the problem. You won't see. You'll se something very different to how an actual human can actually play the game and how it actually plays.

Good shout. I've watched a far few of these dudes play now, and I'm thinking "how the fuck are they doing that?!?" I've counted how long it takes for them to take enemies down etc. and it's often WAY quicker than in the vanilla game.

I'm no expert player, but I'm no noob either, and some of these longplays are outright bullshit.

I just see the challenge in going for points and saving up Zenny's for the dress, which means I don't buy any rejuvenation potions so as Drago would say if I die, I die.
I like this way of scoring.

Winds of Thunder does the same. Problem there is the game literally shows your final score (where all the in game currency is converted to points) for a whole 2 seconds before proceeding to the credits and there's not even a "hi" count when you start again lol.

I didn't know this, and I didn't screenshot my 1CC in time so I'll never know wtf my score was.

That's a fucker with Winds of Thunder.

I've been playing Forgotten Worlds this morning again, and got to say I'm really enjoying the Megadrive version, but the arcade one really needs that rotary stick to work. Without it you lose half the fun, as your "bit" can't really be used to defend against bullets.

The Megadrive version is too easy on Normal, and only a tad more challenging on Hard, but Hard mode still gets a real nice balance of all things all round to keep it fun at least.
 
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Yeah, the guy from Electric Underground (Mark) made a video once calling out the problems with these tool-assisted channels like World of Longplays. On the one hand, it's cool that these games are seen by a larger audience, but on the other, it's lame that they're seeing this completely impossible gameplay and probably getting discouraged ("how the fuck could I ever manage to do that"). Another problem is that these bullshit channels have a huge follower base while legit players have almost nothing, so it's tough.



I applaud his effort to get community stuff going, but I'm very skeptical. He's a cool dude regardless. Tends to ramble on a bit too much but that's ok, he touches on important points.
 

Lutte

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Just sub to Jaimers boys if you want a channel to preview games. Guy probably has the channel with the greatest variety of shmup content, he has done cool and legit runs of almost any game worth playing and unlike the typical jewtube faggot he DOES NOT SPEAK which allows you to enjoy the game soundtrack and sounds in full. Seriously fuck all these faggots, I don't give a shit about the inane opinions jewtuber has to voice out and the constant random chatter they spam because they don't know what to say to pad 30 minutes. Mark is one of those people, he has decent content but frankly he could really learn to stfu and shorten the opinion videos to the bare essence of whatever he has to say.
 

Nutmeg

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Yeah Mark isn't really my kinda thing but I guess he might be good for younger players interested in the competitive scene. I don't really want to shit on anyone making shmups content unless it downright gives false information like the TASers do.

Seconding Jaimers. He's great.

Replay Burners is probably my favorite overview sub.

My shmup related YT subs:

Jaimers, ben忍, prayerchum, Janet, neoxaquas, BIL0471, ZPS, T3-CYR-WIZ, Ziggy Bertoli, Vanguard's Arcade, iconoclast, k176, Replay Burners, M_Knight_Jul, LordBBH

Some of those players play other arcade games but all of them should have shmup content and they vary by their skill level so you're not just looking at WR runs e.g. Janet who's played everything, and mostly on actual PCBs too. That guy's a machine.
 
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Falksi

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Been blasting through Forgotten Worlds past few weeks on both my Pandoras Box 6 & the Megadrive......

Forgotten Worlds - Megadrive

N8u5HR7.png


The initial batch of Megadrive games released in the UK were pretty stunning. Golden Axe, Revenge of Shinobi, Ghouls N Ghosts etc. some classic titles straight off the bat. I distinctly remember Forgotten World's arriving in what I deemed the "second wave" of releases (which may or may not be true, it's just how I remember seeing it as a kid), and for a double birthday bonanza I bought this and Thunderforce 2 together. I played the bejesus out of it, and ended up writing my first gaming guide for it which made it to the tips section of C&VG, and which I then promptly and proudly showed off to all my mates. I've barely touched it in 20 years, so been looking forward to playing it again.

Straight off Forgotten World's hits you with this mix of uniqueness and quality. It plays really smooth, with a fairly unique 360 degree control system allowing you to attack in all directions. You also possess a support "bit" which can be repositioned at various points around your character to provide a defensive shield from various angles as required (not to dissimilar to R-Type). This defensive positioning adds a nice extra layer of depth, and plays a significant part in the games tactics and enjoyment. The coin-op comes with a built in rotary stick to allow for precise control of the "bit", but this rotary stick is obviously missing on home emulation. Whereas the Megadrive's "Autofire" option allows for a great simulation of the coin-op's rotary stick, allowing you to maximize your "bits" use. Thus on the Megadrive it all controls so tightly & responsively that you get the most from this aspect. Which is nice.

And despite some dated sprite graphics, this is all backed up by stage and boss designs which still remain absolutely chocco rammo jammo full of personality. Most bosses you encounter are well designed, but a couple in particular stand out as outright fucking epic. Having to collect coinage for upgrades, and having some of that coinage hidden throughout the stages, also adds a real nice extra dynamic to proceedings, and keeps things very intense as you balance the trade off between the fighting to both survive and to earn. The fact that your weapon's power increases when two players are flying close by is a real neat little touch which encourages teamplay too.

You do hit a bit of a bump in the road on the Megadrive when you reach the Egyptian level though, as it's far blander than the arcade version, and these flying Toblerones come out of nowhere to suddenly throw an element of skank into the mix. It's not game breaking though, it's just a dip. Some of the weapons however are really shit, and if you buy the wrong one it can impede a lot of the fun. Also around half of them come with nails-down-the-blackboard grating sound FX too. So if you find yourself not enjoying this, experiment with a few other weapons before you give up.

One player mode isn't super easy, but like most things in life it's certainly more fun when played hard, in fact Hard difficulty feels like Normal difficulty here. Also, if you play with 2 players you get infinite lives, which totally kills any real fun. Avoid the temptation to play with more than a limited amount of credits to get the most from it (or at least set a 2 player competition, such as most credits used or least points scored does the dishes etc.)

Forgotten Worlds still remains a real fun shooter, which offers enough different elements from your standard shooter to stand out from the crowd, and be worthy of playing. You do have to find your center with it to get the most from it, but once you've done that it's a fucking cracking little blast. I thrive on it, and it's one of the better PUNP games out there.

:4/5:



f6rw7Ka.png

^They could have made a cool cheesy 80's/90's flick out of this with Dolph & JCVD in the lead roles.

Megadrive Vs Arcade Version

Now the arcade version is better than the Megadrive one in a lot of ways, but not the key ones (well, not without a rotary stick anyway). It contains 2 additional bosses and an extended level, and the graphics, sound and mostly the overall punch which the arcade delivers is a huge upgrade on the Megadrive version.

However, out of the two versions I gotta say that I still prefer the Megadrive version simply because of the control setup. Without the rotary stick, you just can't manipulate your bit (fnar, fnar) like you need to in order to be able to use it defensively, and this takes away a significant part of the fun. Also, the arcade gets brutally difficult later on, and circling + pre-shooting areas where enemies are programmed to appear seems the only way to stay alive. Which again is far harder & less fun with a traditional stick setup then with the rotary stick.

I should imagine the best version is the actual arcade cabinet with rotary stick included, but seeing as the majority of us will be playing this on home systems, I'd opt for the Megadrive version instead, as it's the most well rounded.
 

Alpan

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Pathfinder: Wrath
This is an Asteroids clone rather than a side-scrolling shoot-em-up in the traditional sense, but Nova Drift is a great game. The gimmick is that your ship is also your character build that you build up as you advance waves, similar to ARPGs like D2/PoE.


It's very replayable even in Early Access.
 

Silentstorm

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Let me put it this way, according to Steam, i have played Nova Drift for 37 hours, sure, that was maybe a few hours of just letting the game running, but a big part was actually playing and before new updates, it's really damn good and a ton of fun.
 

J_C

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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
I've heared this one is pretty good as well. :P

 

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