shiggidyshwa said:
What I meant by 'rolling stats' is the traditional method of putting points into attributes. I don't know if there's an agreed upon term for that in these forums.
Well, rolling is generally reserved for when the stats are randomized in some way - as in rolling dice.
I think you're right in that there has to be some downside to switching your character's class at any point during the game. I guess to me, that's present in the grind factor. Even as a mid-level mage, if I suddenly wanted to switch to warrior, wouldn't it mean going back to hours of grinding the novice weapons before getting better? I might become a powerful warrior mage in the end but at the cost of hours of repeated gameplay.
Lore-wise, I'm okay with the idea that one class can choose to learn another skill set. I know not everyone is, and to each his/her own. Theoretically, all characters have a natural disposition towards one play style or another in their back story. Does that mean, for example, that a stock broker can't switch careers to plastic surgery at 40? I'm not sure. It sounds like an impossible thing to do, but it's probably happened. It'd be nice if that could also possibly happen in these kinds of games, with a huge learning curve thrown in for good measure.
Emphasis mine. Ask another question - can you, even theoretically become a plastic surgeon by just taking up tools and practising on people with no prior knowledge?
No, you need some serious education first.
The thing with education is that it would make for some seriously boring gameplay, and that's the purpose of building your character before even starting the game's proper - to determine what kind of skills your character has learned to the level he can use them with any degree of success. Lvl1 character isn't a newborn, he should have some abilities he can rely on enough to take up adventuring.
Therefore, the question is not whether a character should be able to develop another skillset (of course!), the question is how can he gain beginner skill level in this new set of skills.
In Morrowind the system was flawed (in full accordance with bethesdian customs), but most skills were practically useless in 5-15 range and only marginally useful in 15-30 range. Building your level 1 character generally consisted of choosing your own mixture of truly and marginally useful skills, or picking a pre-made template in the form of existing class. Therefore lvl1 mage was far better mage than any level warrior wanting to respec because the latter could at best pay for a custom spell to be made that could only be used as cigarette lighter (in exceptionally dry weather), and would fail at casting it 9 of 10 times anyway.
IF he persevered, or paid for multiple sessions of training he could become an aspiring low level wizard in addition to his warrior skillset.
Vault Dweller said:
Grunker said:
but I did cast fireballs at the walls in DF and it took a long time to level up a skill. So long (if memory serves me right) that it actually felt like practicing a skill, not exploiting a system.
You seriously think doing this is a good game mechanic?
The problem isn't the fact that you can make daggers and level up. The problem is the speed. If you can gain 20 skill levels in under a minute, something is fucking wrong, don't you think?
Wait, shit, the above was just a snide remark, but you actually DO think it's a good game mechanic? Holy fuck... So the solution to a shitty system - SPAM-TO-INCREASE - is making it require MORE spam? O_o
In my humble opinion, increase-by-use systems are a valid and interesting alternative to point-buy systems. They were successfully used in games like Dungeon Master, Wizardry, Prelude to Darkness, Stonekeep, etc.
These systems, aiming to give you a more natural and realistic skill progression, invite you to practice the skills (the same way point-buy systems invite you to do every quests and kill things just to earn XPs). Both systems can be abused, but it's a lot easier to abuse the increase-by-use systems (which explains why Bethesda can't get it right).
Practicing spells and abilities out of combat is an integrate part of the system. Not only it's to be expected but it's also logical, considering the system's goals. If anything, it's better than doing a dumb fedex quest or helping some villagers just to gain a fucking level (ToEE comes to mind). If the skill growth rate is well balanced and the mechanics are well thought through, it's never an issue.
Use based systems are good, but the problems start when skill can used repeatedly at no cost. The cost can be time, if in game the time is valuable in some manner, or it can be a resource of some sort.
There should also be a mechanics that prevents indefinite levelling by repeating simple task after this task can be considered simple.
What's really missing though is an organic way to use crafting - i.e. repairing equipment.
True.
Vault Dweller said:
DraQ said:
Vault Dweller said:
Key word here. Morrowind at least blurred material progression and made it somewhat interesting. In DF any individual properties of different materials were eclipsed by the
or better forcing you to seek upgrade required to hit something regardless of any individual properties materials could have.
"Forcing to seek" is a bad thing in a game like Fallout, but a good thing in a huge sandbox game. It fuels exploration like nothing else and was done well (imo) overall. They didn't go overboard with the numbers of enemies that required high end metals so the game was fairly open but you had to run from certain encounters and couldn't explore certain places. Design-wise, it was very similar to DnD "weapon +X" requirement for certain monsters.
Which is as shit as it gets when random +n weapons start dropping everywhere to be used on unspecific monsters.
They simply replaced it with metals.
Losing all the sense and sacrificing everything cool that could be made with metals on the way.
Enchanted weapon may be easier to hit stuff with. Mundane weapon, even from non-mundane material is just something you swing.
And, since you replace arbitrary +n notation with specific materials, you might as well drop the rigid linear progression and focus on giving different materials different properties instead.
Daggerfall FAILED EPICALLY in this regard.
Is it not how it's supposed to be? You keep playing long enough, you'll get the equipment you need, including unique items. Kind of like in Diablo 2.
No, it's not how it's supposed to be. Diablo 2's MMO-lite mechanics was glaring, with all the undesirable effects like repeatedly raiding bosses for phat lewt.
Diablo 1 is a much better role model, because stuff that dropped actually mattered in given playthrough. You didn't have guarantee of finding your ultimate dream set of lewt.
Even an open world generated and resetting RPG should have limited amount of superb quality stuff lying around, requiring player to hunt it down actively, not visit the same or random locations repeatedly and pick up whatever falls out of first 10 mobs (or making a beeline to a respawning boss).
villain of the story said:
Oh, btw, Fallout 3 & FNV are turn-based. You open VATS, enemies stop. When you're done with VATS, they commence. Sounds like taking turns to me.
Ok, that's it.
DU, could you please DUMBFUCK!! this gentleman?
Stop taking my linking credit 
