Skyrim is worse than Oblivion in every way

[DalekFlay]

I liked Francesco's mod more than OOO. It toned down the scaling and made some other subtle improvements without drastically changing the game or pretending it's not what it is.

 

[AW8]

I don't consider the big bad boss of the mages' guild questline being immune / resistant to a bunch of stuff to be a gimmick. Besides by that point in the story the player really have some way of debuffing the enemy, or at least resisting the shit he'll throw at you.

Myesh I uhm... don't really have a comment since I haven't actually played the Mages Guild while under the influence of OOO and don't know the specifics.

btw, high infamy prevented you from using shrines in vanilla Oblivion (they even released a DLC with a shrine for evil characters)

Ah yes, I had forgotten about that. But Requiem goes a little further, by disallowing or boosting specific shrines after completing quests - some nice little C&C. Also, Oblivion shrines were pretty useless while vanilla Skyrim at least has Talos (Shout cool down decrease) and also last much longer (8 hours as opposed to 10 minutes).

 

[Perkel]

yeah Francesco's is closest to Requiem and made game way better than any other overhaul

 

[DraQ]

No one, DraQ included, is saying Skyrim is the new RPG incline for a new generation. What we're saying is the game is much improved from Oblivion's utter shit looks, world and gameplay, and if you like action games it's worth playing. Anyone who disagrees with that is trying way too fucking hard.

This. It's still a good way below, for example, Morrowind, but it inclined so sharply from Oblivion it's almost fucking vertical - against all expectations (mine at least), less than a month before its release I still fully expected it to be shit in ways no one could possibly envision anything to be shit in.

It was just about fun enough unmodded and with relatively modest selection of mods it basically turns into STALKER/RPG hybrid actually set in Tamriel.

I don't consider the big bad boss of the mages' guild questline being immune / resistant to a bunch of stuff to be a gimmick.

Since it's MG questline he should simply be immune to *all* physical damage.

I liked Francesco's mod more than OOO. It toned down the scaling and made some other subtle improvements without drastically changing the game or pretending it's not what it is.

I played it a bit with Francesco's as I didn't have much patience for OOO and it (OOO) added shitload of randumb stuff that turned me off.

Still, at best it turned OB into first person DiaBlandblo.

 

[Carrion]

Yeah, the ridiculously OP gimmicky enemies sounds like a correct description of OOO. I remember a friend telling me he had to cheat to defeat Mannimarco because of his immunities or something similarily OP..

I remember the unicorn being completely ridiculous. It'd probably destroy Mannimarco if the two encountered each other. Killing it would have probably taken some seriously broken custom spells (not sure if you can even create that kind of spells in OOO), and the only other way of killing it would have been drowning it (i.e. riding it down from a bridge into a river). Umbra was also more or less invulnerable, as through running backwards for several minutes and exploiting the shit out of game mechanics I could bring her health bar down to 1% or so, but I never managed to make the killing blow. It might've been a bug, though, as lowering the difficulty level just a little bit below 50% made her drop almost instantly. I also remember a few arena fights where I disarmed my enemies, grabbed their weapons from the ground and threw them out of the arena, because otherwise fighting them would've taken a million years (ridiculous regeneration rate, a shit ton of HPs and a one-hit-one-kill weapon is hard to fight against unless you get rid of one of the three).

 

[AW8]

Yeah, the ridiculously OP gimmicky enemies sounds like a correct description of OOO. I remember a friend telling me he had to cheat to defeat Mannimarco because of his immunities or something similarily OP..

I remember the unicorn being completely ridiculous. It'd probably destroy Mannimarco if the two encountered each other. Killing it would have probably taken some seriously broken custom spells (not sure if you can even create that kind of spells in OOO), and the only other way of killing it would have been drowning it (i.e. riding it down from a bridge into a river). Umbra was also more or less invulnerable, as through running backwards for several minutes and exploiting the shit out of game mechanics I could bring her health bar down to 1% or so, but I never managed to make the killing blow. It might've been a bug, though, as lowering the difficulty level just a little bit below 50% made her drop almost instantly. I also remember a few arena fights where I disarmed my enemies, grabbed their weapons from the ground and threw them out of the arena, because otherwise fighting them would've taken a million years (ridiculous regeneration rate, a shit ton of HPs and a one-hit-one-kill weapon is hard to fight against unless you get rid of one of the three).

I actually killed the unicorn in OOO though, I mounted it, fled the Minotaurs to the beach and swam out in the Niben where I whacked it to death. I don't think it took that many swings though, I mostly did it to avoid the Minotaurs and kill the damn horse without having it run away.

Friendo told me about how he lured Umbra to the Imperial City, where she massacred everyone she saw without slowing down. :D Basically the only way to kill her would be to use the 1HKO-arrow found in the fort Lucien Lachance is in.

But I'd rather have ridiculously OP enemies that make me run in fear than pushovers. I mean, it's not like you can make Oblivion any more silly.

 

[abnaxus]

Did Skull of Corruption or Wabbajack work on Umbra?

 

[DraQ]

Did Skull of Corruption or Wabbajack work on Umbra?

There was only one true Umbra.

:umbro:

 

[abnaxus]

Umbra was in Grey Keyes' Infernal City books, apparently.

Those books are canon, too, since some stuff is acknowledged in Skyrim (Sleeping Tree camp).

In 3E 427, an Orc warrior who went by the name of his sword, Umbra, was spotted in the mountains outside the settlement of Suran on the island of Vvardenfell. The Orc's only desire was to die in battle, but no foe could defeat him. At his request, the Nerevarine bested the Orc in mortal combat and claimed the Umbra Sword. The sword came into the possession of Torasa Aram later that year, and was put on display in her museum in Mournhold.

Sometime after the events of 3E 427, the sword was discovered by a Bosmer named Lenwin, from the small settlement of Pell's Gate in the Heartlands of Cyrodiil. She became bloodthirsty, and began calling herself Umbra after the sword. In 3E 433, Clavicus Vile sent the Champion of Cyrodiil to retrieve the Umbra Sword. Barbas, Vile's Hound, advised the Champion against bringing him the sword, foreseeing that it would bring ruin to the Prince. Despite the warning, the Champion tracked down and slew Lenwin in the Ayleid ruin of Vindasel and gave the sword to Vile in return for his Masque.

Once the sword arrived in Vile's realm, Umbra escaped and cut away some of the Prince's power for itself. Umbra took the form of a dark being, in the shape of a man but with eyes like holes into nothing. The Prince did not want Umbra to escape with his power, so he changed the walls of his realm, essentially trapping Umbra there. Using his stolen power, Umbra was able to conceal himself in one of the cities at the edge of Vile's realm, fearing that Vile would return him to the sword. In the early Fourth Era, Umbra was attracted to the influx of souls coming from the rift in the realm caused by the first ingenium, which held Baar Dau aloft above Vivec City. Casting a fortune, Umbra learned that the rift would one day become wide enough to throw the Umbra Sword through, lessening the threat posed by Vile. That day came when the ingenium was destroyed; Umbra threw the sword to Mundus, while at the same time Sul and Vuhon, two Dunmer responsible for the ingenium, were sucked through into Clavicus Vile's realm.

Umbra took them captive, and in return for his life Vuhon promised to build a new ingenium, which would tear a piece of Vile's realm away and let Umbra "escape", in a sense. Umbra agreed, and the two created Umbriel, a floating city powered by souls. Umbra fused with Vuhon and placed their joined soul into the new ingenium. Vuhon then began to call himself Umbriel, and ruled the floating city. The city of Umbriel was called to Tamriel circa 4E 40 by Chief Minister Hierem and the An-Xileel, who had gotten in touch with the city via the Hist, who in turn had made contact with the related sentient trees which ran the ecosystem on Umbriel. Hierem had promised use of the White-Gold Tower to separate Umbriel from Vile's realm, but Vuhon first went north to the ruins of Vivec City, fearing that the Umbra Sword may be used to trap Umbra.

However, when Sul and Prince Attrebus Mede arrived at Scathing Bay on Vvardenfell in search of the Umbra Sword, it was nowhere to be found. The sword had already been retrieved by the minor House Sathil eight years previous. Without Umbra stabilizing the sword, it drove whoever touched it insane. Elhul Sathil had been the one to recover it, and had been driven into a killing frenzy. He was chained down and brought back to Castle Sathil on Solstheim. Once there, he regained possession of the sword and would not relinquish his grip. His father, Lord Hleryn Sathil, constructed a dungeon to hold his son until a cure could be found. Elhul stopped eating after the first year, and his father spent years reading up on the sword. Sul and Attrebus Mede eventually tracked down the sword, and were locked in Elhul's prison by Nirai Sathil, who feared the sword. The two defeated Elhul, who had become skeletal and impervious to pain, and used the sword to teleport to Vile's realm.

With his power stolen by Umbra, Vile and his realm were weakened. The Prince tried to take the sword, but he couldn't handle it without Umbra stabilising it. Attrebus negotiated with Vile, and agreed to free his lost power in return for passage to the Imperial City. Sul and Attrebus found their way into Umbriel, and Sul wielded the sword in battle against Vuhon. It had no effect on him, as his soul was in the ingenium. In a final battle beside the ingenium, Attrebus was forced to wield the Umbra Sword and plunged it into the machine. This separated Umbra from Vuhon, trapping Umbra in the sword and mortally wounding Vuhon. With the veil over Umbriel destroyed, Clavicus Vile could enter. The Prince possessed Attrebus and used the Umbra Sword to stab Sul. Sul punched Attrebus and returned him to normality, before jumping on the orb of the ingenium with the sword still embedded in his chest. This turned his body and the Umbra Sword to smoke, likely destroying the artifact for good.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Did Skull of Corruption or Wabbajack work on Umbra?

No on the Wabbajack (only works on creatures, not NPCs) and yes on the Skull (but it won't copy the sword).

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion_talk:Umbra_(person)/Archive_1#skull_of_corruption

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion_talk:Umbra_(person)/Archive_1#Killing_Umbra_with_Wabbajack.3F

Friendo told me about how he lured Umbra to the Imperial City, where she massacred everyone she saw without slowing down. :D Basically the only way to kill her would be to use the 1HKO-arrow found in the fort Lucien Lachance is in.

Or poisoning her. Vanilla Umbra recovers 2 HP per second, OOO Umbra must be even more. Getting rid of that should probably be the first step.

edit:

I punched Umbra in the eye and then ran like fucking hell to my horse and set a course for the Imperial City. She eagerly followed, leaving a literally discernible trail of corpses along the way. What ensued in the city proper was a five-minute bloodbath, the last moments of which comprise this video.

Fucking crazy bitch.

Check out the Sherlock Holmes cameo around 1:00

 

[DraQ]

Umbra was in Grey Keyes' Infernal City books, apparently.

I mean the person.
Oblivion's "umbra" was a pitiful derpwad.

Although the sword's connection to Clavicus was pretty smart move on part of beth (seeing the original Umbra from MW), the whole waaah driving people insane part was turds and didn't fit Vile's MO. Vile revels in in his victims digging their own grave despite having it pretty much spelled out for them - he's patron saint of trolling and daedric prince of "seemed like a good idea at the time" - original Umbra, presumably having wished to become a legendary badass warrior, then not being able to find an honorable end would fit that splendidly, the OB one would not.

As for the canon, well, OB in its entirety is also technically canon, but it's shit nevertheless (the wisest move for Beth would be trying to sweep most of it under the carpet, make it an abandonlore and call it a day).

 

[AW8]

I punched Umbra in the eye and then ran like fucking hell to my horse and set a course for the Imperial City. She eagerly followed, leaving a literally discernible trail of corpses along the way. What ensued in the city proper was a five-minute bloodbath, the last moments of which comprise this video.

Fucking crazy bitch.

Check out the Sherlock Holmes cameo around 1:00

Haha! "SOMEONE'S BEEN MURDERED!" "(Casual) Looks like there's a killer about."

 

[abnaxus]

Vile revels in in his victims digging their own grave despite having it pretty much spelled out for them - he's patron saint of trolling and daedric prince of "seemed like a good idea at the time" - original Umbra, presumably having wished to become a legendary badass warrior, then not being able to find an honorable end would fit that splendidly, the OB one would not.

Dunno, I saw him more as a mirror version of the main character. I.e. killed everything there was to kill, finished all quests, reached level 50 and became fuckin bored when there was no longer anything that could challenge him.

He could even be viewed as a clever parody of the previous main characters of TES games who were all ridiculously powerful and then just disappeared.

 

[DraQ]

Dunno, I saw him more as a mirror version of the main character. I.e. killed everything there was to kill, finished all quests, reached level 50 and became fuckin bored when there was no longer anything that could challenge him.

He could even be viewed as a clever parody of the previous main characters of TES games who were all ridiculously powerful and then just disappeared.

That's also a valid interpretation. So is the one with Umbra foreshadowing what will happen if you beat the game by giving in to temptation of exploits making shit meta.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Although the sword's connection to Clavicus was pretty smart move on part of beth (seeing the original Umbra from MW), the whole waaah driving people insane part was turds and didn't fit Vile's MO.

The wielder in Oblivion found it accidentally, and Vile just wants it back. He has nothing to do with the murdering.

A mortal! Wonderful. Always a pleasure. Perhaps you'll do a service for me, mortal. And I'll reward you. A fair bargain, don't you think? You will retrieve for me a sword, a very special sword. It contains the soul of Umbra, a hero I have had dealings with in the past. Bring the sword to me, and I'll reward you with my Masque. You'll not find a better bargain, mortal. Begin your search in Pell's Gate.

btw, No Umbra in Skyrang, but Dragonborn introduced this guy who serves the same function.

 

[DalekFlay]

Wonder if Umbra is a raid boss or some stupid shit like that in the MMO.

 

[Eyeball]

So, I am currently about halfway through my third playthrough of Skyrim (with Requiem, of course) and I think I've come to some conclusions regarding the setting and atmospehere of TES as presented in Skyrim.

Things that were well done:

-The Falmer and Dwemer ruins. The Dwemer, being no less evil scumbags in Skyrim than in Morrowind, enslaved the Falmer and kept them under the ground for centuries as thralls, only to be exterminated by the now-insane Falmer rising in rebellion. Far degenerated from their former highly civilised elf culture, the Falmer now live in the subterranean ruins of the Dwemer empire, tunneling beneath the earth and torturing and killing any overworlders they might come across in nightly raids to the surface World. I found the idea of having the Falmer creep around Deep underneath your feet as you explored Skyrim to be chilling and very Lovecraftian, in a sense. The artistic design of the steampunky dwemer ruins was also very well done, in my opinion.

-The concept of Shouting. Don't know about you, but I find the idea of ultra-tough fantasy vikings walking around in the snow wearing loincloths with the ability to blow people up or set them on fire using magical warcries to be badass and highly heavy metal. They also add some variety to playing a non-mage with added tools for harder fights and give you a motivation for seeking out dragons to learn their shouts.

Things that were poorly done:

-Dragons. Dragons are overused in general fantasy, had no precedent for being shoehorned into TES lore and were pretty fucking derp in general. No real motivation is given for Alduin wanting to end the planet besides muahahahaevul. "Dragon bad, kill dragon!" can summarise the main plot handily. Which leads me to...

-Factions. The backstory of Skyrim features a beginning religious civil war between the empire and Nords with the Thalmor plotting on the sidelines for their own gain. This could absolutely have been spun into a thrilling tale of war and intrigue between the three parties with the fate of Skyrim hanging in the balance, the actions of the player being crucial in determining the outcome. As it is, the civil war subplot is only really emphasised in literally the first 5 minutes of gameplay, after which boring shit banal dragons appear and steal the show. I feel that the game setting and story would have been MUCH better if the dragons had been cut entirely and the story been about the conflict between the Empire/Stormcloaks/Thalmor and giving the player the possibility of allying with either faction, much like was done with great success in FONV.

Still a great game, but it woulda been better if they'd gotten the people who wrote the storyline to get them coffee instead and handed the writing task to some six-graders. Which may have been what they did in the first place, come to think of it.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

The dwemer were teleported...somewhere during the shenanigans with Nerevar and the Tribunal, they weren't killed off by the Falmer.

Dragons have been a part of TES for a while, they just got the spotlight in Skyrim. And they aren't much more overused than orcs and elves, anyway.

Civil war was apparently cut down a lot during development. I've read that originally you'd have to do at least 12 quests to take a hold, instead of one or two, for example.

 

[DalekFlay]

The dwemer were teleported...somewhere during the shenanigans with Nerevar and the Tribunal, they weren't killed off by the Falmer.

Vanished doesn't mean teleported. I thought Morrowind heavily implied they were either ascended to a higher plane or were completely destroyed, not that their physical being was transported somewhere else.

That whole thing is pretty X-Files in its random complexity and lack of answers, though.

 

[Eyeball]

In Skyrim, Enthim pretty much tells you that the Dwemer Allied with the Snow Elves against the Nords, promptly betrayed and enslaved the Snow Elves and blinded them turning them into Falmer and were then wiped out by the ensuing rebellion. Morrowind's Dwemer were IIRC destroyed by Nerevar.

 

[Grinolf]

I am not sure how someone could claim that dragons weren't part of TES lore, when in the Morrowind there was a big statue of the dragon in the middle of the town with the imperial administration, that was supposed to depict the main god of the Empire. It was very hard to miss. Not sure if something similiar was in Oblivion, since I didn't played it much.
All dwemers, except one, disappeared after the events on the Red Mountain, regardless of where they were at that moment. And it was result of action of their own leader and not Nerevar. Also they weren't positioned as evil in that conflict and had their own point and perspective on the events. Which is one of the main strength of the Morrowind, since it was true for every faction there.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Oblivion's climax has Akatosh (in the form of a golden dragon) defeating Mehrunes Dagon. Every chapel of the divines also has stained glasses depicting him.

edit: also you still find dwemer spirits derping around so I don't they ascended to another plane of existence.

 

[Luzur]

still, the dragons where derp and too many, i was more interested in the Civil war plot then fightning dragons every 15 minutes.

 

[Manjuice Nutella]

Oblivion's climax has Akatosh (in the form of a golden dragon) defeating Mehrunes Dagon. Every chapel of the divines also has stained glasses depicting him.

Fun fact: actually, Oblivion's stained glasses don't have only Akatosh on them.

The Yin and the Yang of Elder Scrolls.

 

[Bahamut]

I am not sure how someone could claim that dragons weren't part of TES lore,

Dragons nearly always where a part of TES lore, but they where rare, intelligent, mythical, not lame dragonborn sword fodder added for epicness sake