So, anyone playing League of Legends?

[Darth Roxor]

Is there a better build for him? I don't really like RoA or Archangels since his mana costs aren't too high.

Archangel's doesn't really make much sense for Malz 'cause he regains mana with E, so he never really runs out of it, and he doesn't have that many high-mana spammy skills that would require a bigger mana pool.

As for RoA, well, that's a matter of preference, but I really don't like taking doran's rings on any of the casters I play a lot. I feel it slows the build too much, while catalyst gives you comparable hp/mana that stays there, and transfers into RoA which also happens to give you ++++++++++hp that is very good on Malzahar, who kind of needs to be close and is very vulnerable when launching the ult.

 

[Mystary!]

Will of the Ancients can be a handy item on Malzahar, Malefic Vision can clear a minion wave and give you massive health regen from lane across the map.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

I already said that player skill cannot be a factor when making a tier list, in fact if it were it would defeat the purpose in the first place. If the world's best LoL player exclusively played Rumble, by your logic Rumble would have to be placed at #1, which we all know is ridiculous. (only morde es #1)

That doesn't follow my logic at all, nor that of Elementz. I never said we should do popularity contests or anything... In fact I haven't mentioned how I think champions should be ranked.

All in all however, since the data is way to complex to be broken down to math, you have to rely a bit on intuition, a bit on logic, a bit on maths too, a bit on experience... It is not a scientific or mathematical question

Mr Grunker do you realize how much math that would require?

Yeah... Impossibly much. So much, in fact, that no one in any esports, ever have made the kind of formula required.

So I can change my previous challenge to mathematically express a laning phase between Ahri and Kassadin to another one: point to someone in any competitive reasonably complex RTS/Shooter/dotalike/ that has made an equation that can mathematically express the relative OP/UPness of a hero/unit/strategy. If not, we should assume that such a formula or expression does not exist, and using it is irrelevant. It

Anyways, fun trivia: Protoss FFE. Bisu became a bonjwa (supah dominant player) in BroodWar because of this strat. Before him, no one could pull it off. Given how many man-hours are dedicated to SC Broodwar, it seems strange that none of them thought of making the uber-formula that could hatch new plans for them, and reveal that FFE was in fact a dominant strategy.

But they couldn't, in spite of financial incentives far outweighing that of LoL. So I think it is fair to say that even if such a formula exists (which I don't), it would never be discovered for a game as small as LoL. So we might as well use what we actually have available, which is our intuition and experience.

 

[Phage]

But they couldn't, in spite of financial incentives far outweighing that of LoL. So I think it is fair to say that even if such a formula exists (which I don't), it would never be discovered for a game as small as LoL. So we might as well use what we actually have available, which is our intuition and experience.

What games are larger than League of Legends competitively, other than Starcraft 2? I understand that there's a relatively small pool of professional level players, but if you take into the account the 5 million dollar prize pool for season 2 and the ever growing player base/stream numbers, I'm genuinely curious as to what's bigger than League. I know that once upon a time counterstrike was massive, but that community has been fractured over and over.

 

[Phage]

but I really don't like taking doran's rings on any of the casters I play a lot. I feel it slows the build too much

Really? It's mathematically the most cost efficient item in the game aside from fully stacked snowball items. The HP of 2 Doran's Ring is comparable to a catalyst for less gold (granted you don't get the regen passive), and you gain a fair amount of AP and mana regeneration (which helps with harrassing people out of lane, even if you do have E's mana regen).

Honestly, I get Doran's rings on almost every mana caster I play as, aside from Karthus and Ryze. If you're going by price per stat, there's really no reason not to, especially since most of my games end by the time I have 3-4 big items, so I don't even need to sell the rings usually.

 

[Dark Matter]

But they couldn't, in spite of financial incentives far outweighing that of LoL. So I think it is fair to say that even if such a formula exists (which I don't), it would never be discovered for a game as small as LoL. So we might as well use what we actually have available, which is our intuition and experience.

What games are larger than League of Legends competitively, other than Starcraft 2? I understand that there's a relatively small pool of professional level players, but if you take into the account the 5 million dollar prize pool for season 2 and the ever growing player base/stream numbers, I'm genuinely curious as to what's bigger than League. I know that once upon a time counterstrike was massive, but that community has been fractured over and over.

Brood War may not be bigger if you're simply considering overall prize pools (although in terms of salaries earned by professional players, no other game comes close to BW). However, Brood War has by far the most competitive scene in professional gaming (SC2 comes the closest) and I think's what herostratus was referring to when he called LoL "small". The fact that it's next to impossible to get into the competitive BW scene, combined with the fact there are far more accessible and rewarding options like SC2 and LoL for prospective progamers, is unfortunately one of the biggest reasons why the scene is dwindling.

 

[Reject_666_6]

I already said that player skill cannot be a factor when making a tier list, in fact if it were it would defeat the purpose in the first place. If the world's best LoL player exclusively played Rumble, by your logic Rumble would have to be placed at #1, which we all know is ridiculous. (only morde es #1)

That doesn't follow my logic at all, nor that of Elementz. I never said we should do popularity contests or anything... In fact I haven't mentioned how I think champions should be ranked.

When criticising the idea you said something about this not accounting for skill. I explained why it's wrong to include skill in a tier list. Got it?

So I can change my previous challenge to mathematically express a laning phase between Ahri and Kassadin to another one: point to someone in any competitive reasonably complex RTS/Shooter/dotalike/ that has made an equation that can mathematically express the relative OP/UPness of a hero/unit/strategy. If not, we should assume that such a formula or expression does not exist, and using it is irrelevant.

The perfect codexian RPG doesn't exist, even though most of us can agree on what it'll mostly be like. Just cause nobody's willing to put in the man-hours to make such a game doesn't mean it's impossibly hard to make. With the right funding and the right dedication we can pull it off. Now tell me, how many teams of a few tens of dedicated people have been funded, or paid to attempt to mathematically create a tier list for any game? If the answer is 0, then making me tell you whether or not such a thing exists is irrelevant. Nobody tried it, so of course there won't be any, there's no interest, there's no financial motivation. Hell, there's no motivation to even make the pitiful effort that Elementz made so far.

Now, I have to keep repeating that I'm talking about making a tier list here, not solving the game according to Game Theory. Those are two completely different goals, and the former is actually downright pointless in anything outside of DotA-type games or fighting game, stuff like that. There's nothing to tier in an RTS, or in a shooter either. Stop trying to imply that I think we should solve LoL - there's no way to solve a skill-based game. Gomoku-likes (Connect 5, Connect 6, etc) have been solved pretty easily, because there is no player skill involved - you can't place a black stone in a spot with any more skill than the next guy. Chess is in the process of being solved, because again anyone could make the same set of moves whether they're bodybuilders or on life-support. Starcraft, Quake or DotA do not fall in that category, hence the term e-sports.

Anyways, fun trivia: Protoss FFE. Bisu became a bonjwa (supah dominant player) in BroodWar because of this strat. Before him, no one could pull it off. Given how many man-hours are dedicated to SC Broodwar, it seems strange that none of them thought of making the uber-formula that could hatch new plans for them, and reveal that FFE was in fact a dominant strategy.

This actually illustrates my criticism for the way Elementz' tier list works. New stuff is discovered all the time if you try to classify what can and can't be done based solely on experience. People who said Protoss FFE could not be done were simply wrong. Everything anybody says about LoL could simply be proven wrong in the future, including what Elementz says. Which is why subjective lists are shit and you shouldn't bother with them. You should just have fun, learn champs you like to play and play them well. Sure you can share opinions on champ X vs champ Y, but just keep in mind that whatever is being said isn't set in stopne, and could always be subject to reinterpretation.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

When criticising the idea you said something about this not accounting for skill. I explained why it's wrong to include skill in a tier list. Got it?

He doesn't though :/ You are completely misinterpreting what is actually being said.

The perfect codexian RPG doesn't exist, even though most of us can agree on what it'll mostly be like. Just cause nobody's willing to put in the man-hours to make such a game doesn't mean it's impossibly hard to make. With the right funding and the right dedication we can pull it off.

Well that is what you must prove really, so far I have seen zero proof, be it logical or mathematical. The perfect codexian RPG has all its elements [storyfagging, combatfagging, artfagging] seen in other games, so we know that the parts exist; the perfect formula for game effectiveness that doesn't need intuition have never been seen, ever. So I feel confident to say that it is up to you to prove that it is feasible. The burden of proof lies on you. Go on. If you don't have the exact math, feel free to use qualitative functions like economists do all the time. You can even point to empirical IRL examples of people having made one.

Now, I have to keep repeating that I'm talking about making a tier list here, not solving the game according to Game Theory. Those are two completely different goals, and the former is actually downright pointless in anything outside of DotA-type games or fighting game, stuff like that.

Feel free to explain how making a tier list is different from "solving the game", which I assume is finding the best strat for winning. A tier list is simply the strongest heroes within the current meta... This is intimately connected with "solving the game". In fact, what the hell would a tier list be for if not for "solving the game"? Finding out which hero is best 1v1? And how on earth does hero usage make sense except within the context of "solving the game"?


See, this was my point all along. Strategy is so complex that you can't solve anything for it, mathematically. And heroes are used in a strategy (whether unknowingly or not. Putting Jax+vayne Top is a strategy, even if it's a shitty one), in fact they make no sense *outside* of a strategy. The only way not to have a strategy is to afk at the fountain.

You should just have fun, learn champs you like to play and play them well. Sure you can share opinions on champ X vs champ Y, but just keep in mind that whatever is being said isn't set in stopne, and could always be subject to reinterpretation.

Well I agree, and so does Elementz... In fact I think everyone here agrees to that. Except you, who claim that it should all be mathematical anyways, which directly contradicts your claim that this will " always be subject to reinterpretation".

But the above doesn't mean you can't have an informed opinion and make reasonably certain and useful judgements. We all know that GP, Riven, Rumble etc. are strong heroes up top that are in most cases much more useful than Eve, Katarina and Blitzkrank for example.


Seriously reject, you have gone full circle from your first claim that it should all be based on maths anyways. Just admit you were wrong. We won't think (all that much) lesser of you. At least not if you just stop.

 

[Reject_666_6]

yeah, too bad LoL is not a closed deterministic system, it relies heavily - in fact is driven by - outside input from the players, which is anything but deterministic.

When criticising the idea you said something about this not accounting for skill. I explained why it's wrong to include skill in a tier list. Got it?

He doesn't though :/ You are completely misinterpreting what is actually being said.

No I'm not, bold parts are there for quest compassing you.

Well that is what you must prove really, so far I have seen zero proof, be it logical or mathematical. The perfect codexian RPG has all its elements [storyfagging, combatfagging, artfagging] seen in other games, so we know that the parts exist; the perfect formula for game effectiveness that doesn't need intuition have never been seen, ever. So I feel confident to say that it is up to you to prove that it is feasible. The burden of proof lies on you. Go on. If you don't have the exact math, feel free to use qualitative functions like economists do all the time. You can even point to empirical IRL examples of people having made one.

I did give you logical proof of why it's possible, namely that it's a closed, deterministic system - all the data you need is found in LoL.exe.

Feel free to explain how making a tier list is different from "solving the game", which I assume is finding the best strat for winning. A tier list is simply the strongest heroes within the current meta... This is intimately connected with "solving the game". In fact, what the hell would a tier list be for if not for "solving the game"? Finding out which hero is best 1v1? And how on earth does hero usage make sense except within the context of "solving the game"?

It's different from solving the game because, as I said above, it's impossible to solve skill-based games. A game of LoL = Player Skill x Game's Programming, and as you probably know it is impossible to solve a single equation with two unknowns. What a tier list seeks to do, in any game, is to treat the Player Skill component as a constant. Tier list = 1 x Game's Programming. So as you can see, you're not solving the entire game, so much as solving the unchanging, pre-defined component of the game.

Well I agree, and so does Elementz... In fact I think everyone here agrees to that. Except you, who claim that it should all be mathematical anyways, which directly contradicts your claim that this will " always be subject to reinterpretation".

Seriously reject, you have gone full circle from your first claim that it should all be based on maths anyways.

No bro, I will make my point as succinctly as possible. The only type of tier list worth following is an objective mathematical one, because it's absolute. In lieu of such a list, nothing else should be trusted, because everything may change anyway. I have peppered each and every post of mine with this stance, whether you choose to ignore it yet again remains to be seen.

Just admit you were wrong. We won't think (all that much) lesser of you. At least not if you just stop.

Arguing with you is like trying to explain to a cyclops that you can judge distances using your sight. Nature hasn't endowed him with two eyes, so because he can't do it he claims it's impossible.

 

[Phage]

Anyone watching IEM Kiev? All I can say is that Euros can't comprehend the power of Sivir..!

 

[Grunker]

I iz watching and sad cuz of no Fnatic

 

[Phage]

I'm sad because we don't get to see doublelift vs chaox in a setting that matters to finally settle who's the best AD carry in the world.



Though in all seriousness I do view them as arguably the two strongest.

 

[Grunker]

but we already know it's doublelift so i don't understand what you mean

I like chaox better but doublelift so stronk

I'll enjoy watching the tourney... Maybe we should do a Let's Watch of a tourney some time.

 

[Berekän]

TSM is stomping so hard it's not really interesting to watch, too much one-sided.

 

[Mystary!]

Heal on ad carry/exhaust on Support is already starting to get used, after one match and a Phreak comment.
EDIT: Switched to full ad runes instead of armor pen on Sivir after our match and did a hell of a lot better. Thanks Chaox.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Had a pretty interesting game today when I played Shen top vs Riven.

She was completely powerless. Each time she'd get close to last hit, she'd get a dagger to the face, and each time she'd try to harass me with her bunnyhopping bullshit, I'd just dash away in the middle of her combo, which itself didn't do much good either, as I rushed warden's mail, which mitigated lots of damage and gave me crazy regen with Q (also, feint). Got 3 kills on her (2 of them with jungler ganks), died once (when a swain, warwick and someone else also happened to bumrush me), ended up with a load more of CS.

I liked how she then started typing all over all chat with 'wtf I can't believe I'm losing this lane to a fucking shen. Did he get those buffs? No?! Then he doesn't fucking need them, omg'

I wonder whether Shen counters her that much, or if that Riven was simply a clueless tard. She had skin to win, though, so the player probably had some experience with her...

Shen es #1

 

[Jaedar]

Played some jungle malph. I have to say he's pretty cool. Fast clear time with crazy sustain(after red I had 60% health and 3 hp pots remaining), good ganking with the q and massive teamfight potential with ulti and aoe attack speed reduction.

I will probably wind up using him as my main jungler. FINALLY MY MONTH LONG QUEST IS AT AN END.

 

[Markman]

Played some jungle malph. I have to say he's pretty cool. Fast clear time with crazy sustain(after red I had 60% health and 3 hp pots remaining), good ganking with the q and massive teamfight potential with ulti and aoe attack speed reduction.

I will probably wind up using him as my main jungler. FINALLY MY MONTH LONG QUEST IS AT AN END.

Told you

I still dont know what to do with his slowassness after red. One option is to beam back for boots or try the regular hit and miss ganks. Boots make him shitload more dangerous, and with his Q and red theres a bigger chance they wont escape even after using Flash. Unless lanes are really pushed ive had trouble ganking with good results. But thats just before he hits 6. After that its no trouble.

 

[Markman]

Starting with boots now instead of armor. Feels much better. He starts with 40 armor and plus his passive and W boost so the first armor doesnt really matter much.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

The only type of tier list worth following is an objective mathematical one, because it's absolute. In lieu of such a list, nothing else should be trusted,

And this stance is retarded. Of course you can trust things that aren't absolute 100% mathematically true - if not, you couldn't trust anything. There are margins of error on everything in the world, including scientific measurements. I mean, if I said that Evelyn is UP and that she is a useless hero in a competitive setting, I would not be able to find a mathematical proof of it, but it is nevertheless true; we can safely put her at the bottom of a tier list. If someone puts her top against westrice we know that she will lose >95% of her games.

Will a tier list be 100% accurate? No. Can the accuracy of it be expressed mathematically? Not really. But it can give a useful indication. You have to use your common sense when reading it. You probably apply this logic to most of your day today life as well, unless you have all your options 100% mathematically figured out.

I did give you logical proof of why it's possible, namely that it's a closed, deterministic system - all the data you need is found in LoL.exe.

But it is NOT A CLOSED SYSTEM IT IS DRIVEN BY PLAYER INPUT!!!! With no player input, the heroes would AFK at the fountain until one minion wave finally destroyed the other nexus. With no player input, lol is not a game. It is... Just a pointless simulation exercise. This is like saying football is a deterministic game, because the ball is ruled by classical mechanics, all you need to know is the weight and size of the ball plus a book on mechanics and I guess some of dat fancy physics you use to calculate a projectile that moves through air.

It's different from solving the game because, as I said above, it's impossible to solve skill-based games. A game of LoL = Player Skill x Game's Programming, and as you probably know it is impossible to solve a single equation with two unknowns. What a tier list seeks to do, in any game, is to treat the Player Skill component as a constant. Tier list = 1 x Game's Programming. So as you can see, you're not solving the entire game, so much as solving the unchanging, pre-defined component of the game.

How do you even mathematically define skill? It is like defining utility. Where do you even start.... And again, if you don't "solve the game", which I would again ask you to define, then you can't say shit about a hero's strength since their strength is only relevant in the context of "solving the game". A hero that isn't attempting to "solve the game" does not have a goal or a reason for even moving outside of the fountain.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

"Actually, you COULD go ranged AD kennen"

- Phreak

What's wrong, Grunker?

 

[Brotherman Bill]

And it owns!

 

[Darth Roxor]

"Actually, you COULD go ranged AD kennen"

- Phreak

What's wrong, Grunker?

But can it also be played as a jungler?

And deal tons of damage?

 

[Mystary!]

Dunno about regular ad carry, but maxed attack speed Kennen is quite stunning.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

If I see another streamer building AP on Jax I'm gonna scream. Look at them skills. Look at them! There is not a single one that benefits more from AP than from AD except the Q, and that one only very, very slightly.