So, Baldurs Gate

[TedNugent]

For the usual reason, I would imagine, usual around here anyways. Explorerfag content is being stripped from games these days (for various reasons). And a new generation of gamers is rising up who call choosing to traverse a winding 20' alleyway that branches off a linear corridor 'exploration'. But they get a chest at the end, so it's all good.

Actually, I just got off about a 4 month stint of World of Warcraft. I have the Loremaster achieve and the World Explorer achieves.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/nazgrel/Dokarm/achievement#96

I don't have any more time for shitty exploration and bad writing. I've had about all the shitty exploration I can take. I want a real RPG now with C&C, character development, and a good story.

How's this for a 20' linear corridor: http://mapwow.com/

 

[GarfunkeL]

Well said, Telengard, and what you wrote definitely solved my comprehension problem regarding what Liberal and DraQ were saying.

I would like to point out that Icewind Dale is, in this regard, even worse than Baldur's Gate. Because there is nothing to explore and every map, usually, requires you go over every corner in order to just proceed.

I also found the world map of BG2 disappointing, since I quite liked the "explore maps to proceed" approach of BG1.

 

[Stokowski]

It may well be fashionable to nitpick about Baldur's Gate here and now, but (a) you're largely just being a cunt in doing so ...

(a) No.

Q.E.D.

 

[Exar Kun]

I am playing with the "proper" mods installed. The game is good people. You can criticize any CRPG, it doesn't change the fact that its a great game.

 

[Abelian]

The explorerfag is a little different, though. The explorerfag wants to go out on a ship and discover the New World. It's one of the reasons we used to say: you Search an area, you Explore the New World.

Ironically, one game where I enjoyed the exploration aspect was Conquest of the New World, and I felt it did a good job in spite of using isometric POV. But I also enjoyed it for the city-building/economy and the simple, yet fun turn-based combat.

 

[roshan]

real medieval fantasy world.

Real fantasy? What have you been smoking?

 

[roshan]

Just so I get this straight, are we now treating regular unmodded BG2 as a "hard" or "challenging" game?

It wasn't hard. But is there any RPG that is? Because I'd certainly like to play it. Fallout 2, Arcanum, Icewind Dale, Icewind Dale 2, Planescape Torment, Temple of Elemental Evil...... Are you going to tell me that these games were hard or challenging?

 

[Zeriel]

They exist. They tend not to be popular, though. They certainly aren't to be found among the equivelant of western AAA titles (sure Black Isle/Bioware of that era weren't exactly AAA, but they were as close as RPGs got in those days).

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

ITT Glyphwrite and DraQ are disappoint that BG1 isn't Skyrim and write 30 mini-essays explaining that BG1 isn't Skyrim. Such talking. Such opinion. Such doggie meme. Next.

 

[Storyfag]

FFS, why don't you tards stop throwing the word "exploration" around and realize that people just like big games where they can wander around and do shit

Content is fun. Content is usually better than the lack of content. Which is why when I played BG2, left Athkatla and was deposited onto a world map UI instead of a huge green field with trees, rivers, and chirping birds, I was disappointed.

It's not rocket science.

This, and for exactly the same reasons. Exiting Athkatla I thought: well, the city was good fun, but now it's time for a stroll in the wilderness. And then... I got to Trademeet

 

[DraQ]

FFS, why don't you tards stop throwing the word "exploration" around and realize that people just like big games where they can wander around and do shit

But no one is denying that BG1 is a relatively big game with lots of optional areas.

It's just not the same as having exploration.

Content is fun. Content is usually better than the lack of content. Which is why

...having relatively little content dispersed across many maps and diluted by generic grass&trees copypasta was not fun.


Inert filler is only good if it's critical for atmosphere, structure or mechanics.

In BG1's case it could have and should have been mostly abstracted away into travel map.

ITT Glyphwrite and DraQ are disappoint that BG1 isn't either Morrowind or BG2 (or some other Fallout/PS:T)

Fixed.

We are also disappoint that you aren't non-faggot.

 

[Infinitron]

Inert filler is only good if it's critical for atmosphere, structure or mechanics.

IMO it was critical to the game's low level AD&D experience

 

[DraQ]

We get what they are saying, we just happen to disagree with it. The way you say "You uncover the map, and you immediately get all the rewards" implies that as soon as you make the decision to explore, your character is buried underneath an avalanche of lootz and encounters. In reality, the player actually has to invest a significant amount of time to explore the zones, on the order of tens of hours, in order to experience the reward of uncovering encounters.

You also need to invest time to explore areas in GLORG.

You might as well watch the progress bar getting filled.

You might still enjoy just walking around purty backgrounds, but that merely makes BG *the* hiking simulator game of all times, and would work better without fog of war impairing your sightseeing.

Ironically, if a game did implement the discover step as you outlined it, in particular "that no one else has ever seen before few playing this game will ever see", wouldn't that mean that most players would miss the stuff to be discovered

Well, too bad for them.

Sounds like the summary of Skyrim's exploration actually. The only way to enjoy Skyrim's "exploration" is if you took a Todd Howard to the knee brain.

I instead opted to enjoy it by installing Morrowloot and Requiem.

Though still it isn't among the main reasons I enjoy even *modded* Skyrim.

Problem?

Inert filler is only good if it's critical for atmosphere, structure or mechanics.

IMO it was critical to the game's low level AD&D experience

Tons of empty generic wilderness copypasta filled with repetitive respawning mobs?


BG could be cut down to approximately 25% of its size without losing any of the actual content, while also removing tedium, improving the feeling of moving around the world (because the actual moving around wilderness doesn't consist of sweeping it with tiny circular sight range), and removing inconsistencies between storyfag restriction and content representation with unrestricted movement (having some areas that need to be marked before being travelled to VS having filler maps connecting to each other and being able to walk in any direction), as well as between content representation and travel encounter maps.

BG ended up with some unholy hybrid of abstract travel map with points of interest and full world representation - abstract travel map with evenly sampled world representation resulting in evenly spaced points of interest that aren't, but you still have to trudge through them.

The worst of both worlds - from full world representation you lose full world representation and element of exploration, from abstract map you lose focus, reduction of tedium and good bang/buck quotient.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

BG is much smaller than Morrowind. This means that [...] in BG you can, and will 'explore' everything.

But no one is denying that BG1 is a relatively big game with lots of optional areas.

Baldurs Gate. Its relatively small, yet relatively big. It has lots of options, yet you can and will exhaust them all.

 

[GarfunkeL]

DraQ, you're being overly harsh. It wasn't that repetitive. Different areas had different monster types spawning in them, plus even the between-maps random battles changed troughout the game. And they were useful in creating the atmosphere that you're a group of n00bs wandering the wilderness, in search of adventure and so on.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

You also need to invest time to explore areas in GLORG.

You might as well watch the progress bar getting filled.

Yes, exploration in BG1 is just like watching a progress bar. This is an excellent illustration of where your logic leads to, so I will just leave it at that.

BG is much smaller than Morrowind. This means that [...] in BG you can, and will 'explore' everything.

But no one is denying that BG1 is a relatively big game with lots of optional areas.

Baldurs Gate. Its relatively small, yet relatively big. It has lots of options, yet you can and will exhaust them all.

 

[DraQ]

Baldurs Gate. Its relatively small, yet relatively big. It has lots of options, yet you can and will exhaust them all.

Let me edcumcate you:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/relatively

 

[Grunker]

DraQ, you're being overly harsh.

This entire thread is people making the same points again and again to DraQ. What makes you think your repetition is going to knock sense into the man?

 

[DraQ]

DraQ, you're being overly harsh.

This entire thread is people making the same points again and again to DraQ. What makes you think your repetition is going to knock sense into the man?

Saying "murdering the same group of gibberlings/xvarts over and over again is awesome and I like to hike around pretty pictures" over and over will indeed fail to knock sense into anyone.

Maybe it just doesn't add to the atmosphere from my perspective.

 

[Grunker]

"murdering the same group of gibberlings/xvarts over and over again is awesome and I like to hike around pretty pictures" over and over will indeed fail to knock sense into anyone.

Good thing not a single poster has said something even remotely close to that, then.

 

[Rake]

Tons of empty generic wilderness copypasta filled with repetitive respawning mobs?

..............................................................
...having relatively little content dispersed across many maps and diluted by generic grass&trees copypasta was not fun.

...............................................................
BG could be cut down to approximately 25% of its size without losing any of the actual content, while also removing tedium, improving the feeling of moving around the world and removing inconsistencies between storyfag restriction and content representation with unrestricted movement (having some areas that need to be marked before being travelled to VS having filler maps connecting to each other and being able to walk in any direction), as well as between content representation and travel encounter maps.

BG ended up with some unholy hybrid of abstract travel map with points of interest and full world representation - abstract travel map with evenly sampled world representation resulting in evenly spaced points of interest that aren't, but you still have to trudge through them.

from abstract map you lose focus, reduction of tedium and good bang/buck quotient.

Agree 100% with that.

 

[Glyphwright]

Draq, BG1 defense squad is looking at Baldur's Gate through the rose-colored glasses of nostalgia and/or complete incompetence at exploration. If there's anything I learned from that piece of shit Wheel of Time forum, it's that you can't talk sense into a die-hard fanboy, because they'll keep frpthing at the mouth to try and deny those parts of objective criticism that they can deny, and flat-out ignore those parts that they can't deny.


Anyway, to sum up the "BG1 has no real exploration" discussion:

1. Isometric perspective restricts player's interaction and perception with the game world, requiring a greater use of textual descriptions, lore, and dialogue (what a 3D game can demonstrate through its game engine, an isometric game must describe through words);
2. BG1 has well-drawn 2D visuals, but its game world severely lacks in uniqueness, storytelling, and roleplaying options;
3. The vast majority of locations in BG1 are completely generic and can be cut with little to no loss in roleplaying value;
4. The vast majority of encounters in BG1 are completely unconnected to their locations and are interchangeable with each other;
5. There are a few well-designed outdoor locations which require active involvement from the player (among them Gnoll Stronghold, Durlag's Tower interior) but most are perfectly flat maps which can be traversed practically with your eyes closed;
6. There are a few well-designed indoor locations/dungeons which are interesting to navigate (among them Durlag's Tower dungeon, Ice Maze), but most are horribly narrow and repetitive corridors where your party can easily get stuck and can't properly fight enemies;
7. Quantity over quality is BG1's defining feature.

Case closed, thanks for watching.

 

[Rake]

Draq, BG1 defense squad is looking at Baldur's Gate through the rose-colored glasses of nostalgia and/or complete incompetence at exploration. If there's anything I learned from that piece of shit Wheel of Time forum, it's that you can't talk sense into a die-hard fanboy, because they'll keep frpthing at the mouth to try and deny those parts of objective criticism that they can deny, and flat-out ignore those parts that they can't deny.

Remind me why you were in a WoT forum in the first place? It's like following IGN and then complaining that the denizens are idiots.

 

[Glyphwright]

Remind me why you were in a WoT forum in the first place? It's like following IGN and then complaining that the denizens are idiots.

Because I stumbled upon a thread where morons were comparing WoT to LotR and Dune and saying that, well, Tolkien isn't bad but Wheel of Time goes so far beyond and pushes the horizons of fantasy literature to unprecedented levels, and all sorts of utter idiocy that made my blood boil, so I couldn't help but come there and politely, calmly point out the innumerable flaws of the series which preclude it from being considered even remotely good, let alone better than LotR or Dune. A million butthurt fanboys replied and long-winded hilarity ensued, after they failed to disprove any of my points with anything but completely subjective fanwankery, I was eventually stealth-banned without any warning or explanation, despite never breaking any of the shitforum's rules.

What was scary is that many of those fanboys seemed completely incapable of viewing the series in a critical light, I would point out a dozen hyped-up storylines that eventually went completely nowhere and were abandoned because of a completely implausible and unnecessary Deus Ex Machina (e.g. Black Ajah hunters) and people would reply with dumb fanwankery like (Verin had all the Black Ajah names written down, nothing wrong with that!!) as though they don't see the difference between in-universe events and real-life storyline.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

... you can't talk sense into a die-hard fanboy, because they'll keep frothing at the mouth ...

Oh, the beautiful irony...