So, Baldurs Gate

[Grunker]

in RL wilderness I can actually see stuff further than 18m away

oh god, this retardation again

It's not my fault Bi-Aware, in its infinite wisdom, decided to make it this way.

i can't see my feet in morrowind shit game 0/10

Didn't realize you wanted to explore your feet.

oh, so now good exploration requires line of sight in isometric games

tell me more about exploration draq

 

[DraQ]

DraQ Pull yourself together brah. You are ranting now. I don't like BG1 either, but you won't see me ranting about not being able to see a Gnoll Stronglohld in a Infinity Engine game, which has nothing to do with anything. Just accept that their approach to exploration did not align with your favourite and deal with it. If someone can enjoy it, good for him. Zen, brother, zen.

His point, I think, is that exploration requires you to notice (or think you notice) a point of interest, and then head for it. If you're simply zigzagging across a map until you find the proverbial gnoll stronghold, then you're not exploring, because there's no agency involved, just randomly stumbling upon things.

This.

"Blind guy in the fog" just isn't a mechanical model for any sort of exploration for reasons completely unrelated to DraQ being a meanie towards good old BG1.

And while any mentions of exploration in BG1 being laughable doesn't detract from game's other qualities, it helps highlight the biggest problem BG1, IMO has.

This problem isn't that you can spam fireballs at inert AI from beyond visual range, nor it is moustache twirling villains ragequitting your party just because you got popular.
This problem is that design-wise BG1 is terrible as it seems to be a mishmash of mutally contradictory ideas getting in each other's way:

• Guys, let's make a party based RPG - but don't let the player build their actual party
• Balance our game as true party based game - but treat it as solo for protagonist's death
• Put a good deal of work into developing intraparty interactions and giving recruitable characters their own agency - but let the player strip them of all gear and kick them out within seconds of first meeting them
• Use points of interests + map travel as your world implementation - but make the points of interest just random generic wilderness forcing player to walk
  
• Give player freedom to roam around - restrict access for no apparent reason until the story progresses
• Create majestic vistas - cover them with RTS-esque fog of war

BG1 design decisions just don't make sense in each other's context.
You could pretty much make a much better game out of pretty much any half of them as long as you'd throw the remaining half out.

 

[Bubbles]

His point, I think, is that exploration requires you to notice (or think you notice) a point of interest, and then head for it. If you're simply zigzagging across a map until you find the proverbial gnoll stronghold, then you're not exploring, because there's no agency involved, just randomly stumbling upon things.

By that logic, Arcanum, Fallout 1/2, Darkfall, Terraria and the Realms of Arkania games offered some of the very worst exploration gameplay in the industry. FTL would probably be the shit standard, deserving a special award for most abysmal exploration mechanic in an interactive medium.

Well, okay, that sounds about right. I'm guessing your gold standard for good exploration is Fallout 3?

 

[J_C]

DraQ Pull yourself together brah. You are ranting now. I don't like BG1 either, but you won't see me ranting about not being able to see a Gnoll Stronglohld in a Infinity Engine game, which has nothing to do with anything. Just accept that their approach to exploration did not align with your favourite and deal with it. If someone can enjoy it, good for him. Zen, brother, zen.

His point, I think, is that exploration requires you to notice (or think you notice) a point of interest, and then head for it. If you're simply zigzagging across a map until you find the proverbial gnoll stronghold, then you're not exploring, because there's no agency involved, just randomly stumbling upon things.

So basicly every isometric RPG is shit because in these games you cannot explore far away points of interest, since they are covered by fog of war.

 

[GarfunkeL]

You can, actually, "see", the Gnoll Stronghold, as it's already on the world map, just like other fixed and well-known places, like towns and Baldur's Gate itself.

 

[imweasel]

Map comparisons using DraQ el burro logic part two:

Analogue to your example, how would an Elder Turds (e.g. Skyrim) game look if you expanded the in-game map size from ~40 km² to ~290000 km² (area of the Fallout 2 map)? :D

1. It would look like Daggerfall, more or less. TES from 2 onwards doesn't have arbitrary or not arbitrary hotspots, it's one single map.

Daggerfall's in-game map is ~150 km² large, so no.

2. You managed to miss the point (good job!). Like BG the FO map I posted would only have small, hundreds of meters wide, rectangles of generic wasteland separated by many h/day travel. For no reason.

You managed to miss out where I was being sarcastic, because you have absolutely no point.

The amount of content and areas is not dependent on map size. Your statement that a theoretical "Fallout 2 with a BG style map" requires 50 or 60 "generic areas" is therefore ridiculous. Dude, it is really not that hard to understand.

Well, now that is some damn good proof that the Elder Scrolls games are total shit. Thank you DraQ, couldn't have done it without you.

Wasn't Nashkel supposed to have population of around 3000, BTW?

Uh, oh.

What about the 50 or so people living in each of the largest cities in Skyrim? Not to mention that Skyrim doesn't even have large cities comparable to Baldur's Gate or Amn.

Big budget Bethtard game fails again.

 

[DraQ]

So basicly every isometric RPG is shit because in these games you cannot explore far away points of interest, since they are covered by fog of war.

Hello?
I critiqued BG1, not put

's on over half of the people replying in this thread.

What does fog of war have to do with isometric? Did Fallout have fog of war?
Then why the fuck did BG need one?

 

[Mrowak]

DraQ Pull yourself together brah. You are ranting now. I don't like BG1 either, but you won't see me ranting about not being able to see a Gnoll Stronglohld in a Infinity Engine game, which has nothing to do with anything. Just accept that their approach to exploration did not align with your favourite and deal with it. If someone can enjoy it, good for him. Zen, brother, zen.

His point, I think, is that exploration requires you to notice (or think you notice) a point of interest, and then head for it. If you're simply zigzagging across a map until you find the proverbial gnoll stronghold, then you're not exploring, because there's no agency involved, just randomly stumbling upon things.

This.

"Blind guy in the fog" just isn't a mechanical model for any sort of exploration for reasons completely unrelated to DraQ being a meanie towards good old BG1.

And while any mentions of exploration in BG1 being laughable doesn't detract from game's other qualities, it helps highlight the biggest problem BG1, IMO has.

This problem isn't that you can spam fireballs at inert AI from beyond visual range, nor it is moustache twirling villains ragequitting your party just because you got popular.
This problem is that design-wise BG1 is terrible as it seems to be a mishmash of mutally contradictory ideas getting in each other's way:

• Guys, let's make a party based RPG - but don't let the player build their actual party
• Balance our game as true party based game - but treat it as solo for protagonist's death
• Put a good deal of work into developing intraparty interactions and giving recruitable characters their own agency - but let the player strip them of all gear and kick them out within seconds of first meeting them
• Use points of interests + map travel as your world implementation - but make the points of interest just random generic wilderness forcing player to walk
  
• Give player freedom to roam around - restrict access for no apparent reason until the story progresses
• Create majestic vistas - cover them with RTS-esque fog of war

BG1 design decisions just don't make sense in each other's context.
You could pretty much make a much better game out of pretty much any half of them as long as you'd throw the remaining half out.

Yes, all of that is true. I'd add only that BG2 had more actual exploration in it where you had to make a conscious effort to actually find stuff. There were secret locations with enemies, quests and rewards you could not find/unlock just by walking around and removing fog of war. All of these you could easily miss on you first playthrough (albeit it wasn't particularly concealed either). You can easily contrast that with BG1 which in actuality is more of a theme park, because as long you go forward (roam around on every map) you will see everything the game has to offer.

However, the point is this discussion has already degenerated into nonsense. The things you mentioned are not universal negatives - they may be "flaws" for us - but they are not for the rest, as it appears. You will not convince anyone to have it your way here. Chillout bro.

 

[Bubbles]

What about the 50 or so people living in each of the largest cities in Skyrim? Not to mention that Skyrim doesn't even have large cities comparable to Baldur's Gate or Amn.

Read the lore. The ravages of civil war have reduced Skyrim's population to less than ten thousand, about half of whom are outlaws. The cities, farms and dungeons can easily accomodate that number.

 

[SCO]

i wish there was a anti-brofist for that 'lore'

btw, it's possible in BG script to 'uncover' a map location by other means than just stumbling on it. In fact it can be:

a) trigger activated, like a conversation
b) stumbled upon, from borders
c) or both

But what draq means is FP imurshun - seeing ruins from afar - anyway.

 

[Bubbles]

We briefly had those when the forums software was updated. Make a petition to bring them back, I'll sign it.

 

[J_C]

So basicly every isometric RPG is shit because in these games you cannot explore far away points of interest, since they are covered by fog of war.

Hello?
I critiqued BG1, not put

's on over half of the people replying in this thread.

What does fog of war have to do with isometric? Did Fallout have fog of war?
Then why the fuck did BG need one?

It didn't have fog of war. It just limited how far you can move the camera from the main character, which serves a similar purpose as FoW.

 

[Surf Solar]

Hello, my name is Surf Solar and I like the Fog of war in the IE games

 

[Excidium]

It's ok to like shit, as long as you don't think it's good because you like it.

 

[Surf Solar]

Don't you worry, I think it's so good that I put it in my own Isometric game.

 

[J_C]

Don't you worry, I think it's so good that I put it in my own Isometric game.

And it is a good idea, because without FoW, there would be no exploration in an isometric game (whatever Draq saying). Maybe you could limit camera movement like in Fallout, but both is the same basicly: you cannot see everything on the map immediately.

 

[Excidium]

Don't you worry, I think it's so good that I put it in my own Isometric game.

And it is a good idea, because without FoW, there would be no exploration in an isometric game (whatever Draq saying).

What a load of rubbish. Consider implementing a proper LoS system if you care so much.

 

[Invictus]

I really agree Surf Solar, FoW is a nice system which let's you know at a glance what areas of the map you have checked before and what not. All this anal probing over the "exploration" and whatever is getting out of hand, even for DraQ

 

[J_C]

Don't you worry, I think it's so good that I put it in my own Isometric game.

And it is a good idea, because without FoW, there would be no exploration in an isometric game (whatever Draq saying).

What a load of rubbish. Consider implementing a proper LoS system if you care so much.

And how do you do that? You can use LoS like in JA2, meaning the enemy characters only pop up when you see them, but if you want the player to feel the exploration in an iso game, you have to limit their view of the surrounding areas.

 

[Excidium]

but if you want the player to feel the exploration in an iso game, you have to limit their view of the surrounding areas.

Yeah, using I don't know, a LoS system. JA2-style is just one implementation. You can completely limit player vision where it makes sense instead of just blanketing everything in some black fog you have to vacuum.

 

[J_C]

but if you want the player to feel the exploration in an iso game, you have to limit their view of the surrounding areas.

Yeah, using I don't know, a LoS system. JA2-style is just one implementation. You can completely limit player vision where it makes sense instead of just blanketing everything in some black fog you have to vacuum.

Easier said than done. How can you limit the player's view in an iso game? It is not like in First person view where you see in one direction.

 

[Surf Solar]

but if you want the player to feel the exploration in an iso game, you have to limit their view of the surrounding areas.

Yeah, using I don't know, a LoS system. JA2-style is just one implementation. You can completely limit player vision where it makes sense instead of just blanketing everything in some black fog you have to vacuum.

Easier said than done. How can you limit the player's view in an iso game? It is not like in First person view where you see in one direction.

but if you want the player to feel the exploration in an iso game, you have to limit their view of the surrounding areas.

Yeah, using I don't know, a LoS system. JA2-style is just one implementation. You can completely limit player vision where it makes sense instead of just blanketing everything in some black fog you have to vacuum.

Easier said than done. How can you limit the player's view in an iso game? It is not like in First person view where you see in one direction.

Fonline has a system where your characters FoV is represented as a cone infront of the characters front. I didn't use it because I find it looks silly that characters pop in view and off all the time while walking through a city.

 

[octavius]

but if you want the player to feel the exploration in an iso game, you have to limit their view of the surrounding areas.

Yeah, using I don't know, a LoS system. JA2-style is just one implementation. You can completely limit player vision where it makes sense instead of just blanketing everything in some black fog you have to vacuum.

Easier said than done. How can you limit the player's view in an iso game? It is not like in First person view where you see in one direction.

It's easy for a computer.

 

[Excidium]

but if you want the player to feel the exploration in an iso game, you have to limit their view of the surrounding areas.

Yeah, using I don't know, a LoS system. JA2-style is just one implementation. You can completely limit player vision where it makes sense instead of just blanketing everything in some black fog you have to vacuum.

Easier said than done. How can you limit the player's view in an iso game? It is not like in First person view where you see in one direction.

Like Nox or that Sword of the Stars roguelike or a bunch of others.

but if you want the player to feel the exploration in an iso game, you have to limit their view of the surrounding areas.

Yeah, using I don't know, a LoS system. JA2-style is just one implementation. You can completely limit player vision where it makes sense instead of just blanketing everything in some black fog you have to vacuum.

Easier said than done. How can you limit the player's view in an iso game? It is not like in First person view where you see in one direction.

but if you want the player to feel the exploration in an iso game, you have to limit their view of the surrounding areas.

Yeah, using I don't know, a LoS system. JA2-style is just one implementation. You can completely limit player vision where it makes sense instead of just blanketing everything in some black fog you have to vacuum.

Easier said than done. How can you limit the player's view in an iso game? It is not like in First person view where you see in one direction.

Fonline has a system where your characters FoV is represented as a cone infront of the characters front. I didn't use it because I find it looks silly that characters pop in view and off all the time while walking through a city.

Sounds like a poor implementation.

 

[J_C]

but if you want the player to feel the exploration in an iso game, you have to limit their view of the surrounding areas.

Yeah, using I don't know, a LoS system. JA2-style is just one implementation. You can completely limit player vision where it makes sense instead of just blanketing everything in some black fog you have to vacuum.

Easier said than done. How can you limit the player's view in an iso game? It is not like in First person view where you see in one direction.

It's easy for a computer.

It is not the computing that is the problem. You have 6 characters in your party, each facing in different directions as you move them, and constantly changing their facing direction. It would look silly if their surrounding appear and disapear all the time when the characters move.

but if you want the player to feel the exploration in an iso game, you have to limit their view of the surrounding areas.

Yeah, using I don't know, a LoS system. JA2-style is just one implementation. You can completely limit player vision where it makes sense instead of just blanketing everything in some black fog you have to vacuum.

Easier said than done. How can you limit the player's view in an iso game? It is not like in First person view where you see in one direction.

Fonline has a system where your characters FoV is represented as a cone infront of the characters front. I didn't use it because I find it looks silly that characters pop in view and off all the time while walking through a city.

Exactly.

but if you want the player to feel the exploration in an iso game, you have to limit their view of the surrounding areas.

Yeah, using I don't know, a LoS system. JA2-style is just one implementation. You can completely limit player vision where it makes sense instead of just blanketing everything in some black fog you have to vacuum.

Easier said than done. How can you limit the player's view in an iso game? It is not like in First person view where you see in one direction.

Like Nox or that Sword of the Stars roguelike or a bunch of others.

Nox did good, but it had one character, and you could precisely control that character,, he faced whereever you pointed your mouse cursor. With a 6 man party, each facing the direction they want (having no control over their facing), it would have been chaotic.