So, System Shock 2....oh the horror!

[Deuce Traveler]

The game does have a sense of humor. I just found a replicator in the theater of the ship's mall, and it was selling chips and soda for hundreds of nanites, making them the most expensive items yet encountered, but only at the concession stand.

:D

Other than that, I have to say I'm enjoying the game as much as SS1. I liked SS1's sense of isolation and danger, but I also had more options to sneak a portion of my body around an obstacle and snipe at an enemy. However, I like the creature sounds more in SS2 and find them scarier than in SS1, and Shodan's big reveal in SS2 was pretty damn sweet when I finally encountered her.

 

[DraQ]

That's a massive improvement over SS2, actually. In SS2 enemies pop out of thin air, you swat them like mosquitos and continue on your way. They have all the presence and consequence of mowing down enemies in Quake. Amnesia's monster can't be killed

...they disappear even without being swatted.

 

[Niektory]

I don't see why melee capability would need to be removed.

Because the act of swinging a wrench, rapier or pointy Annelid kidney stone doesn't consume resources.

Only if the monsters can't fight properly. If you weren't able to reliably whack them without getting hit back then it wouldn't be a problem.

 

[DraQ]

I don't see why melee capability would need to be removed.

Because the act of swinging a wrench, rapier or pointy Annelid kidney stone doesn't consume resources.

Only if the monsters can't fight properly. If you weren't able to reliably whack them without getting hit back then it wouldn't be a problem.

Games' history teaches us that it's surprisingly hard to accomplish, though.

Players learn, monsters don't.

 

[Gregz]

You wanna quote Penny Arcade?

Fine:

That illustration is how I personally gauge an excellent game, when time stands still. 6 hours might pass before I realize I'm hungry, need sleep, etc. THAT defines a great game.

If 8 out of 10 Codexer's find SS2 boring, fine...who cares? That doesn't mean it's not an excellent game in the 99th percentile of all cRPGs.

 

[dunno lah]

Hell...if MCA digs this game, it's gotta be good right?

 

[Deuce Traveler]

I just beat the game. I can tell why this game is on a lot of people's top 10 lists for CRPGs. The sense of horror is really well done and continuous throughout the game, and there is a limit of ammunition, healing kits, and other materials to make it a challenging game, especially with respawns. Also, there is definitely some replayability as you can develop different builds. I went tech-based with some specialty in melee and ballistic weapons, but I'm pretty curious how different the game would have been if I focused on psi instead.

It lacks the open world exploration and party building that I prefer, so it won't be in my own top 10 list, but it is still a great game and I finished it so fast because I just couldn't put it down. I'm glad GOG added it so I could finally play.



Now onto Arx Fatalis so I can finish my Looking Glass associated chain of games: Ultima Underwold -> Ultima Underworld 2 -> System Shock -> System Shock 2 -> Arx Fatalis.

 

[Infinitron]

Now onto Arx Fatalis so I can finish my Looking Glass associated chain of games: Ultima Underwold -> Ultima Underworld 2 -> System Shock -> System Shock 2 -> Arx Fatalis.

...Bioshock, Dishonored.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

I have played Bioshock. It was too easy. I went all the way to the end of the game before I died, but then regenerated only a few feet away from the big daddy that took me out. No real challenge, though it was alright as an interactive movie. It didn't impress me enough to purchase the sequel that just came out. As for Dishonored, I stayed away from that one too after hearing that it failed to live up to the hype.

 

[DraQ]

At stopwatch-predictable intervals in some cases? Sometimes from completely empty rooms you'd previously cleared?

That's an argument against particular implementation, not idea itself.
Don't be Bethesda.

The argument I responded to was that it was "realistic" within the confines of the SS2 universe's rules to have enemies spawn in this manner.

It's more realistic than having no enemy spawns.

A bunch of faceless ninjas spawning out of tiny hidden rooms is entirely pertinent to SS2's spawn system.

It isn't because enemies in SS2 have no morale or anything like that. They are perfectly happy dying for the Many and your usual hybrid is just a mook.
And they aren't thrown at you. They are roaming the ship trying to locate any survivors. Your main advantage is that they don't know where you are. When they do learn (alarm triggered), *then* the shit gets nasty.

As for grossly overpowered protagonists...not that it matters, but how many enemies does the grunt in SS2 kill, exactly?

It doesn't matter because his relative power isn't that high. It's not that the grunt is some unstoppable killing machine rip-and-tearing his way through hordes of rumblers. He generally fights at most a small bunch of enemies at a time and (unless he's a psion) doesn't do anything superhuman.

What if the player just runs past everything?

Then you have failed to design enemies whose purpose is to prevent that in the first place. Back to your IDE.

What if the player just traps enemies on scenery or in rooms, thus breaking the spawn system?

Implement unfucker that detects enemy being stuck based on some criterion, then teleports them back onto nearest accessible path node as soon as player sees neither enemy nor the node.

What if the player uses up all their ammo and health and is incapable of getting past the constantly respawning enemies?

Farm pipe hybrids for nanites.

In any case, that's more of a legitimate risk than misdesign risk if player knows that enemy is inexhaustible and your balance doesn't hinge on particular number and distribution of enemies.

Health and dam boost/reduction items are the resources for melee characters. You're going to get hit eventually.

Alarm systems lack long-term consequences. You can set them off multiple times and wipe out hordes of Many, and the hive mind still won't bother sending heavier personnel to take care of you. As with the general respawn system, it quickly becomes clear to the player that the alarm system is a game mechanic totally divorced from the reality of the setting.

And yet it's still better than "hurr clear the level and spend 4h sitting in the middle of a corridor playing Overworld Zero".

As for Dishonored, I stayed away from that one too after hearing that it failed to live up to the hype.

What a shame.
Dishonored is a good DeusEx like.

The only problems it suffers is oblivious AI (it wouldn't be fair even if you didn't have all the awesome powers - try ironmaning individual missions for actual challenge), smeary textures (devs went for painterly look and while it works for distant scenery, nearby surfaces look fugly) and shitty lighting engine (the way models are lit sometimes dips to HL1 level).

 

[J_C]

So, after a few weeks hiatus, I finished the last few levels of the game (Rickenbacker, Body of the Many, Shodan's defeat). I must say that I have to soften my stance of the respawing enemies a bit. It is still shitty design in my book, but I got used to it during the third part of the game. Of course this has a lot to do with me being strong enough, with lots of firepower to steamroll them. With this out of the way, I could enjoy the game, and damn, overall it was a pretty good and intense experience. Shodan was great all the way, the levels were big and interesting, and the atmosphere was top notch of course.

Good Job Looking Glass!

 

[toro]

So, after a few weeks hiatus, I finished the last few levels of the game (Rickenbacker, Body of the Many, Shodan's defeat). I must say that I have to soften my stance of the respawing enemies a bit. It is still shitty design in my book, but I got used to it during the third part of the game. Of course this has a lot to do with me being strong enough, with lots of firepower to steamroll them. With this out of the way, I could enjoy the game, and damn, overall it was a pretty good and intense experience. Shodan was great all the way, the levels were big and interesting, and the atmosphere was top notch of course.

Good Job Looking Glass!

Just a few years too late.

 

[J_C]

Being an important person like me takes its toll.

 

[jagged-jimmy]

Just finished it. Weapon degradation and respawns bothered me a little, because i had to backtrack a lot at the beginning. But after a few hours and maint skill upgrade i was fine. Now i feel like respawns were pretty much mandatory, otherwise you would walk an empty ship with no sense of danger at all...
Atmosphere, sound - all top notch. Gameplay was very well done, but i wasn't very excited overall. Nice experience, but more like an archaeological discovery. Playing at release would've been different i assume.

But i loled at the ending a bit, wasn't expecting such a cheesy move after all the atmospheric gameplay.

Spoiler

Shodan gives an impressive AI speech to try to seduce you into joining her and rule the world. And you: "Nah!" - and shoot her in the face! Very 90s...cannot imagine such stuff today - publisher/marketing would choke he devs.

 

[Snorkack]

I must say that I have to soften my stance of the respawing enemies a bit. It is still shitty design in my book, but I got used to it during the third part of the game.

Heh, this was one of my favorite parts of the game - you could never feel safe even in areas you already cleared. So many games would have profited from a SS-like approach of respawning enemies. Skyrim, for example would have been so much better if not every dungeon would have had its own emergency exit but instead leaving the dungeon was a challenge in itself.

 

[CyberP]

The only problems with the respawning is the inconsistency in frequency: mass spawning in Engineering, less frequent spawning later in the game, and none at the end? Shouldn't it be the other way around as the Many gets stronger and for general gameplay progression + balancing? And also the spawning should never witnessed in person. Other than that it is very fitting for the game, especially since we do a fair bit of backtracking.

 

[Catfish]

It wasn't all bad, though. Granted, walking into a camera at the very beginning and watching zombies come out of nowhere was silly. But the random strolling enemies on the Engineering deck (the irradiated maze thingy and the storage bays) were downright terrifying, still are, if you play alone, at night and with headphones.

 

[DraQ]

the random strolling enemies on the Engineering deck (the irradiated maze thingy and the storage bays) were downright terrifying

This.

SS2 is the only fucking game where I missed point blank. Twice in a row. With a shotgun.


It was in the cooling tubes, of course.

 

[CyberP]

To be fair the shotgun uses slugs so you have to be pin-point accurate.

Here's hoping Underworld Ascendant lives up to this masterpiece and its brethren.

 

[Cthulhu_is_love]

I have to admit the game has some good atmosphere, but i wouldn't count it as terrifiying (yeah on impossible, fags!!!)
It's more like Thief athmosphere with respawns, cool but also very tedious time to time.

And after Eng you get very overpowered, which makes the game kinda boring gameplaywise.

Funny thing is the respawns should prevent clearing out an level, but of course you could do that still.
You feel the cleared out parts of some levels.

I think the best thing it made is the survival part, i had the constant feeling of paranoid ressource shortage, even if having enough of all.

Also short game --> many walktroughs --> many fun --> stiff cock --> erectile dysfunction --> frustration --> amok in kindergarten

 

[Latro]

Here's hoping Underworld Ascendant lives up to this masterpiece and its brethren.

haha

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

Hey guys, it is that time again. I'm playing through SS2 now, I'm somewhere near the end I guess, but I'd like to share my thoughts so far.

So...honestly, this game is almost unenjoyable. And very enjoyable at the same time. Enjoyable, because it has great atmosphere, a nice setup, Shodan obviously, lots of weapons, psi powers and other stuff to gather. I like the level design, and that blood pumping, yet so frightening techno music. Oh, and hearing Stephen "Garrett" Russel in a different role, but with the same voice was a very strange experience.

But it is almost entirely ruined by the constantly respawing enemies. SS2 is worst than any other modern popamole game in this regard. And if you think otherwise, then you don't know what you are talkig about. Seriously, they spawn in front of you from thin air, they spawn again and again behind you. And because the game is quite hard, you can get a lot of damage from enemies you don't even see, because in one moment they are nowhere to be seen, but suddenly they are hitting you from behind. Sometimes I was strafing during a gunfight, and I didn't notice that a spider or some robot spawned behind me, and killed me. I was near ragequit at that point.

The weapon degredation system is hit and miss. It was enfuriating in the beginning, because you couldn't fire 5 bullets without breaking your gun (literally). Thankfully you can wack the enemies to death with your melee weapons. Oh, melee hit detection is shit. And the repair skill is shit, because even if you upgrade it (alongside with the maintenance skill), you barely repair your stuff. Later in the game it wasn't a huge problem, because I found a lot of repair tools, which maxed out the weapons durability, so they didn't brake too much.

I will finish the game of course, and although I'm happy that I've played it, and was a good experience, it won't be on my best games list.

:flameshield up:

Tried playing it a few times but got bored every time. I don't think it's that great of a game. I love the formula it pioneered, but IMO PREY is the best rendition of it so far.

 

[Master]

 

[Naraya]

GentlemanCthulhu
I like Prey a lot, to the point that I've completed it (including the really good expansion) multiple times, but IMO it doesn't hold a candle to SS2. The oozing atmosphere of helplessness and mystery of SS2 is unmatched. While I can say that SS2 is a survival horror game, Prey didn't elicit similar feelings to me. It's a good game in its own regard but pales in comparison with SS2.

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

GentlemanCthulhu
I like Prey a lot, to the point that I've completed it (including the really good expansion) multiple times, but IMO it doesn't hold a candle to SS2. The oozing atmosphere of helplessness and mystery of SS2 is unmatched. While I can say that SS2 is a survival horror game, Prey didn't elicit similar feelings to me. It's a good game in its own regard but pales in comparison with SS2.

Well it's subjective you know. I don't have any nostalgia for SS2. I went into it for the first time in 2017 with current day biases. Its atmosphere failed to capture me with its lowpoly modes and constantly blaring music. I mean... what atmosphere? Sure, it gets better if you turn down the music all the way but that's hardly a solution. Not saying the game is bad. It's just not for me.