Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Elder Scrolls So why is Elder Scrolls lore so interesting?

Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
494
Location
Australia
I've never played Arena, but were the majority of "general" lore books/stories established in Daggerfall? Especially after checking the Imperial Library there's no mentioning of Arena books at all.
Arena was pretty generic DnD-styled fare. Daggerfall was a first step toward the series gaining its own identity, but it wasn't until Redguard that the lore as we come to know it was developed. (Also, fuck Bethesda for not including it and Battlespire in the Anthology.)

My favourite Daggerfall book is one about life of Makela Leki (the strongest character ever in TES universe, according to Kirkbride).
She's on the list, but she's not the most powerful. That's be Talos.
 
Joined
Sep 18, 2013
Messages
1,258
90% of Morrowind books was hauled over from Daggerfall. But quite some Daggerfall books were never hauled over.

My favourite Daggerfall book is one about life of Makela Leki (the strongest character ever in TES universe, according to Kirkbride).

http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:From_The_Memory_Stone_of_Makela_Leki

Perhaps you phrased this wrong? The majority of the books in Morrowind were new for Morrowind. Nearly all of the Daggerfall and Battlespire Books can be found in Morrowind but together they account for at most maybe 20% of the total book count.


A comparison can be made here:

http://www.imperial-library.info/books/morrowind/by-title
http://www.imperial-library.info/books/daggerfall/by-title

I've never played Arena, but were the majority of "general" lore books/stories established in Daggerfall? Especially after checking the Imperial Library there's no mentioning of Arena books at all.
Arena was pretty generic DnD-styled fare. Daggerfall was a first step toward the series gaining its own identity, but it wasn't until Redguard that the lore as we come to know it was developed.

Huh?
 

Dustin542

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
117
I've never played Arena, but were the majority of "general" lore books/stories established in Daggerfall? Especially after checking the Imperial Library there's no mentioning of Arena books at all.
Arena was pretty generic DnD-styled fare. Daggerfall was a first step toward the series gaining its own identity, but it wasn't until Redguard that the lore as we come to know it was developed.

Huh?
It also came with the Pocket Guide to the Empire.
 

Regvard

Arcane
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Messages
1,070
Location
Gormenghast
17/20.

I'm sure I'd score near 0 in oblivion one since I don't even fucking remember the main antagonist. It was that forgettable.
 
Joined
Sep 18, 2013
Messages
1,258
I've never played Arena, but were the majority of "general" lore books/stories established in Daggerfall? Especially after checking the Imperial Library there's no mentioning of Arena books at all.
Arena was pretty generic DnD-styled fare. Daggerfall was a first step toward the series gaining its own identity, but it wasn't until Redguard that the lore as we come to know it was developed.

Huh?
It also came with the Pocket Guide to the Empire.

Which is mostly summaries compiled and extended from the pre-existing body of lore. At any rate, the amount of lore present in books, NPC talk and quests in Daggerfall was colossal and the step establishing an identity. Pocket guide is simply addendum. Makes me doubt if you played Daggerfall at all.
 
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
494
Location
Australia
I wouldn't understate the importance of the Pocket Guide, but I may have exaggerated a little. Though I didn't mean that it was all in Redguard the game, but rather around that period. A lot of lore was posted to the forums at that time, including the Monomyth and the cosmology. You just wouldn't end up seeing any of that in-game until Morrowind.
 
Self-Ejected

ScottishMartialArts

Self-Ejected
Joined
Feb 24, 2005
Messages
11,707
Location
California
I've never played Arena, but were the majority of "general" lore books/stories established in Daggerfall? Especially after checking the Imperial Library there's no mentioning of Arena books at all.
Arena was pretty generic DnD-styled fare. Daggerfall was a first step toward the series gaining its own identity, but it wasn't until Redguard that the lore as we come to know it was developed.

Huh?
It also came with the Pocket Guide to the Empire.
are

Which is mostly summaries compiled and extended from the pre-existing body of lore. At any rate, the amount of lore present in books, NPC talk and quests in Daggerfall was colossal and the step establishing an identity. Pocket guide is simply addendum. Makes me doubt if you played Daggerfall at all.

I'm kind of asking the same question of you. Much of what was in the Pocket Guide was brand new. Daggerfall had introduced lore to the series, yes, but it did so on a very limited scale with a very limited focus. The names of the gods and daedra, the Brief History of the Empire, The Real Barenziah, the first mention of the Psijic Order, and the main plot itself, i.e. the Numidium, The Underking, etc., were the main lore contributions. A lot of the rest was either medieval fairy tale that never showed up again in the series, or very specific to the Iliac Bay region, and largely seems to have been retconned out anyway. Even with Daggerfall, most of Tamriel was basically Sembia from the Forgotten Realms, i.e. a defined theme with a few place and person names but little else. That changed with The Pocket Guide to the Empire, and Morrowind saw the lore introduced in the guide realized in a full game.

If you don't believe me, then you really need to replay Daggerfall and see how much of the Elder Scrolls lore either doesn't exist in it, or is just a placeholder name that was later fleshed out into something memorable.
 
Joined
Sep 18, 2013
Messages
1,258
I beg to differ. You could rightly say that the pocket guide + Redguard itself opened up new possibilities and the lore really matured with Morrowind realising those but in Daggerfall, there was a lot that was already settled and felt distinct. To me at the least and your Sembia comparison is superficial; you could replace it with half a dozen authentic historical references and it would still ringtrue.

So perhaps you weren't paying attention and didn't take notice or maybe simply dismissed it all but lots of little bits of information here and there; in a book, in a piece of NPC rumour talk, in a random NPC remark, in a quest text, in a daedra summoning, in festive days, in a main quest NPC itself; added up to a bigger, coherent picture.

I love how Morrowind integrated parts of the lore into the plot and game in general but calling lore doesn't exist in Daggerfall is ridiculous. A game doesn't have to poke its players in the eye with the lore. And at the very least, Daggerfall didn't resort to some form of chosen one crap ie. Nerevar. You would think that with all that interesting lore finding its way into the game, the actual plot would involve something more creative than that shit.

Anyway, this wasn't supposed to be about DF vs. MW. All I'm saying is that long before MW came along, Daggerfall was a unique fantasy setting for me with enough lore to instill that impression and when it became certain that Morrowind would finally be coming for real, I was filled with enthusiasm towards a lot of things and that involved aspects of lore as well and Morrowind delivered in that department.
 
Last edited:
Self-Ejected

ScottishMartialArts

Self-Ejected
Joined
Feb 24, 2005
Messages
11,707
Location
California
I didn't say lore didn't exist in Daggerfall. I said it introduced lore but on a limited scale and with a limited focus, leaving much of the world and setting little more than an outline. There is at least an order of magnitude of difference between what's actually IN-GAME in Daggerfall and what's detailed in the Pocket Guide. This is a trite but illustrative example: the elves of Daggerfall were the High Elves, Wood Elves, and Dark Elves; there were no mer or any mention of mer in Daggerfall.

Don't get me wrong: Daggerfall is great, and you begin to get a sense that the Elder Scrolls as a setting are going to be a bit different than your standard fantasy game. But that's all you get: a sense of what's going to be. Daggerfall as is has some pretty interesting lore, but it was NOT fleshed out until Redguard and the Pocket Guide.
 

Turjan

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
5,047
And at the very least, Daggerfall didn't resort to some form of chosen one crap ie. Nerevar. You would think that with all that interesting lore finding its way into the game, the actual plot would involve something more creative than that shit.
I have never seen the "chosen one" trope as creatively subverted as in Morrowind. Calling this "crap" doesn't do it justice.

And the Pocket Guide is awesome. The old one, that is.
 

DalekFlay

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
14,118
Location
New Vegas
I can't wait for Elder Scrolls Online to fuck all this lore up and expect us to pay $15 a month to experience it.
 

Haraldur

Augur
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Messages
308
The sources of inspiration. Some of the people behind the lore really know their stuff. Some knowledge of Eastern cultures and religions will help you spot them.

I'd also argue that in the case of the dunmer culture, the sources of inspiration are so varied that it creates a sort of inspirational ambiguity. I'm going to pick a terrible example here, but the orcs from Warcraft 3 are carbon copy of African tribesmen, and that's about it, that's all the cultural equivalents they have to real world models.

But the dunmer have both a tribal society, a certain jewish xenophobia, south italian numismatics, bedouin lifestyle, an honor code, sharp class distinctions, strict religious orthodoxy, monastic institutions and pilgrimages, saint worship, etc.

While the nords are clearly inspired by scandinavian culture, the dunmer sources for inspiration are so varied that it leads to a sort of blurring of the line between the real world (inspiration) and the fiction (outcome), because there is no single equivalent in the real world for the dunmer culture.

I have not previously given much thought to the similarities between Dunmer culture and those on Earth, but your description and my memories now make me think very strongly of Saudi Arabia.

Tribalism: the country was formed as an alliance of tribes led by the Sauds and still is basically this to a large extent.

Xenophobia: Foreign workers stay in compounds, Western influences resisted and they gave us Osama bin Laden. One might even compare those compounds (and USA military bases) with Imperial forts and towns like Pelagiad and so on.

South Italian numismatics: Coins? Sorry, but I do not follow.

Bedouins: A few nomads still wander the central desert I believe.

Honor code: probably.

Sharp class distinctions: You could be a prince pf Saud with a significant portion of the national wealth entailed to you or some commoner of another tribe living in a hovel in which you cram your wife/ves and children.

Strict religious orthodoxy: perhaps more than anywhere else (perhaps North Korea moreso, but that seems different).

Monastic institutions and pilgrimages: Hello, Mecca. How does the Hajj itinerary compare to that tour of pilgrimages one must take to join the Tribunal Temple?

Saint worship: Broader Western Asia, maybe, but I believe Islam has saints, Caliphs, prophets etc. with disagreement about some between sects. Also the migration story, the wars and so on of the Chimer/Dunmer/Velothi seem to resemble the Arab conquests and the spread of Islam, the fights againsy the Persians etc..

Also, IIRC, pre-Muslim Arabs and/or Berbers had ancestor worship and the Tribunal Temple seems a bit like a Caliphate.

So, perhaps the Dunmer ARE a carbon copy of an Earth culture, but one we are less likely to notice as it is less copied or less visible in general?
 

Commissar Draco

Codexia Comrade Colonel Commissar
Patron
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
20,856
Location
Привислинский край
Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
1) Hating all foreigner N'wahs goyims? Check

2) Worshiping a Temple and its Trinity: Vives, Almalexia and Sotha Sil Yahwe, Assura and Ball? Checked

3) Having tribal nomadic roots and settling land taken by force from fellow Semite Mer Canaanites Dwemer after being led from their own county by prophet like figure? Hello Mosses Veloth and fighting Sea People Co Invaders like Nords Philistines? Checked

4) Having be brought into Roman Cyrodelic Empire, getting civilized and resenting it? Checked.

5) Awaiting Messianic figure who will liberate them from Empire and than bitch that this Messiahs was Imperial Agent? Checked.

6) Having been cursed for killing their own Messiahs by their God? Checked.

Ergo Dunmer are Jews.
 
Self-Ejected

theSavant

Self-Ejected
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
2,009
Now you woke my interest in the TES lore. I never read the books in the game, but if they were actually taken from real history only slightly changed form... wow... I mean... wow! I'd never thought about this. Then it's actually something useful to read and learn, and not some random fantasy story (like most other games).
 

Heresiarch

Prophet
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
1,451
I never read the books in the game,

Are you kidding me? That's like missing out 33% of the fun of any of the TES games. TES's in-game books are probably one of the few things that makes the series truly shine when compared to other true classic RPGs. The only games come up in my mind that put effort in making ingame books are Ultima 7 - 8, but even them are nothing compared to any TES except for Arena.

Reading books in TES is an awesome experience. Nothing beats the awesome LARPy feeling of after a long day of dungeon exploring, proceed to read books in your cozy house while eating self-cooked dishes that increase your INT.
 

Indranys

Savant
Joined
Nov 24, 2012
Messages
486
Location
Illepsum
How's the lore in Skyrim+expansions and TES Online guys??
Did the Venerable Todd Howard finally rape every lore in the game??
That's the reason I'm too afraid to play Skyrim until now.
Just played a few hours and stopped because of that "so you truly are a dragonborn just like Talos OMG!!!111 Quick climb the mountain and meet the masters who taught him the thuum nao!!" moment. :mad:

What did they do with Tiber Septim/Hjalti/Underking myths and all??
Any dumbfuck official revelations so far??
Oh God what if Tiber Septim was really a Nord/Generic Atmoran descendant with dragonborn powers and shit.
That'll be pretty disappointing man.
Isn't there a theory that he was mute and Hjalti was the true Talos back in Oblivion??
Oblivion fuckery makes me this paranoid bros, but at least Sheogorath was still cool in that game.
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,159
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
ITT I have my suspicion confirmed "Codex has shit taste in lores".

Elder Scrolls lore is appealing? The mind boggles.

It might be that the older tittles, Arena, has better lore. I dont know. I dont think it's possible, considering TES 3 and Skyrim. In other setting, considering Fallout 3. I think bad writings is endemic problem of Bethesda. In exchange for ability to build a large open world they has shitty writing department, kind of deal like that. it's like Obsidian can not release a game without a ton of bugs. Endemic. trade-off.

Morrowind has boring lores, boring characters, dialogues... boring anything to do with writings.
 

abnaxus

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 31, 2010
Messages
10,850
Location
Fiernes
What did they do with Tiber Septim/Hjalti/Underking myths and all??
Any dumbfuck official revelations so far??
Oh God what if Tiber Septim was really a Nord/Generic Atmoran descendant with dragonborn powers and shit.
That'll be pretty disappointing man.
Isn't there a theory that he was mute and Hjalti was the true Talos back in Oblivion??
Skyrim just confirms the Arcturian Heresy.
 

AW8

Arcane
Joined
Mar 1, 2013
Messages
1,852
Location
North of Poland
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Now you woke my interest in the TES lore. I never read the books in the game, but if they were actually taken from real history only slightly changed form... wow... I mean... wow! I'd never thought about this. Then it's actually something useful to read and learn, and not some random fantasy story (like most other games).
Read Report: Disaster at Ionith right nao!!

Skyrim just confirms the Arcturian Heresy.
It does?
 

AW8

Arcane
Joined
Mar 1, 2013
Messages
1,852
Location
North of Poland
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Joined
Sep 18, 2013
Messages
1,258
I didn't say lore didn't exist in Daggerfall. I said it introduced lore but on a limited scale and with a limited focus, leaving much of the world and setting little more than an outline. There is at least an order of magnitude of difference between what's actually IN-GAME in Daggerfall and what's detailed in the Pocket Guide. This is a trite but illustrative example: the elves of Daggerfall were the High Elves, Wood Elves, and Dark Elves; there were no mer or any mention of mer in Daggerfall.

Don't get me wrong: Daggerfall is great, and you begin to get a sense that the Elder Scrolls as a setting are going to be a bit different than your standard fantasy game. But that's all you get: a sense of what's going to be. Daggerfall as is has some pretty interesting lore, but it was NOT fleshed out until Redguard and the Pocket Guide.

I'll settle with "not as detailed and nuanced until".
 
Joined
Nov 28, 2011
Messages
6,063
Location
Digger Nick
I thought you people were saying that the "Talos betrays and murders Zurin Arctus"-part was confirmed in Skyrim.

The ghost who sends you on a radiant fetch quest only really confirms that Talos was known as Hjalti before he became Talos, right? There's still no definitive proof whether he was a Nord or a Breton from Alcaire.

Off the top of my head, the only relevent information that you get from the ghost is that:

Talos was called Hjalti, not Talos from Atmora.
Hjalti and the ghost both trained "under the swordmasters of Alcaire".
Hjalti sacked or did something unpleasant to Hroldan.

At the very least, even if Hjalti was not personally Tiber Septim/Talos, he was an important and legit part of Talos oversoul.

also lol @ people saying Arena/DF had better lore than Morrowind :lol:
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom