KickStarter Solasta Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Damned Registrations]

The effectiveness of armor in d20 games makes plenty of sense if you remember that the original system was based on the premise that level 6 was pretty much an olympic gold medalist in terms of skill. For your average level 1 soldier with maybe 1 or 2 bonus to hit from strength, plate armor and a shield takes you from getting hit 65% of rolls to like 15% That and the fact that the system is meant to abstract things- being 'hit' doesn't mean drawing blood, and making an attack roll doesn't mean swinging your weapon once.

The crazy AC munchkin builds relying on dex have no real comparison in reality. The kind of stats involved would be akin to someone in a mobility scooter trying to hit a housefly.

The point is that japs lack any military evolution and the katana is the basic piece of metal that was 2000 years ago.

The main impressive thing that was done with (some) katanas was composite contruction of the blade. Using brittle steel that holds the edge better for the edge and more flexible steel for the spine is a pretty good technique. It's just not suitable for mass production since it's obvious far more involved and finnicky. Some of these got inanely complicated, and used 7 different pieces of steel in a single blade. Obviously the benefits are marginal, but you have to admit nobody in the west gave enough of a fuck about smithing to do something that crazy.

 

[Lawntoilet]

The effectiveness of armor in d20 games makes plenty of sense... The crazy AC munchkin builds relying on dex have no real comparison in reality. The kind of stats involved would be akin to someone in a mobility scooter trying to hit a housefly.

Then I would say that the effectiveness of armor actually doesn't make sense, because you can just "be really fast" and be just as well-armored as someone in actual armor. Like maybe the armor itself offers a realistic amount of protection, but in context it doesn't make sense that it only offers as-good-or-worse protection compared to taking gymnastics classes.
Also having a shield would realistically make less and less difference compared to how heavy your armor is - it probably wouldn't add much protection if you're already in full plate.

 

[fantadomat]

Still japs are pretty good soldiers,even managed to fight back a few mongol invasions.

When Mongols arrived, they fought Japanese vanguard, massacred it, then moved out before real Japanese army arrives. It was the Japanese army. Japanese learned, strengthened katana tips to prevent breaking on Mongol's armor made from actually non shitty iron. (Non shitty iron wasn't found on Japanese territory in that era. Later they were importing steel from Europe.)

Chinese delayed Mongol invasion fleet to ensure it would arrive in time when there are typically some tornadoes around Japan, and hoped Japanese don't have bricks instead of brain and prepare themselves to not fall within first day of Mongol invasion.

Japanese knew they will not have chance against Mongols in direct fight, and fortified EVERY place where Mongols could land, and placed there newly trained soldiers who knew if Mongols get through them, they would kill them anyway. Mongols with their natural carefulness started to circle around Japan trying to find most easy landing, even when they thought they could force landing with some loses. But why having unnecessary large loses...



It was more about smarts and preparation than about fighting proves. Especially considering Japanese used ponies as cavalry. (They imported proper horses later from Europe.)

Ahh it was more about mongols lacking decisiveness and getting fucked by the typhoons,90% of their casualties was from that. They were pretty much wiping jap ass left and right.

 

[fantadomat]

The main impressive thing that was done with (some) katanas was composite contruction of the blade. Using brittle steel that holds the edge better for the edge and more flexible steel for the spine is a pretty good technique. It's just not suitable for mass production since it's obvious far more involved and finnicky. Some of these got inanely complicated, and used 7 different pieces of steel in a single blade. Obviously the benefits are marginal, but you have to admit nobody in the west gave enough of a fuck about smithing to do something that crazy.

Oh i agree with that,i am just saying that the katana as a tool of war is inferior. Still i do respect ingenuity in the face of a problem. The west tho didn't really needed to fold their blades,and as you said it,the benefits were marginal. Also euros did invented to make their blade more elastic and not firm like the katana. Shit just went different ways.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Then I would say that the effectiveness of armor actually doesn't make sense, because you can just "be really fast" and be just as well-armored as someone in actual armor.

The comparison here isn't with someone taking gymnastics classes. 10 dodge AC is what you get from 20 points of dex above average. 20 points of strength is the difference between your average human and a giant with a chest 9 feet thick that weighs 7000lbs. It's entirely reasonable that the agility equivalent of a 7000lbs muscleman can avoid damage as well as a generic dude in plate. The dex penalties are also totally reasonable; you can still get an AC bonus even in full plate. And that shit is pretty restrictive.

The main impressive thing that was done with (some) katanas was composite contruction of the blade. Using brittle steel that holds the edge better for the edge and more flexible steel for the spine is a pretty good technique. It's just not suitable for mass production since it's obvious far more involved and finnicky. Some of these got inanely complicated, and used 7 different pieces of steel in a single blade. Obviously the benefits are marginal, but you have to admit nobody in the west gave enough of a fuck about smithing to do something that crazy.

Oh i agree that,i am just saying that the katana as tool of war is inferior. Still i do respect ingenuity in the face of a problem. The west tho didn't really needed to fold their blades,and as you said it,the benefits were marginal. Also euros did invented to make their blade more elastic and not firm like the katana. Shit just went different ways.

Yeah, higher quality ore was plentiful enough in the west that it wasn't a prestige job the way it was in japan. Even a shit sword in the west is perfectly serviceable. A shit sword in japan would have been really shit so you really needed a master to get something worth the cost of the metal. Hence why the best ones there went into the history books (and stories and plays and such) while they were forgotten in the west. People remembered damascus steel and spanish steel but no individual smiths. And while there are a bunch of coronation swords with long histories from Europe, again, nobody remembers who the fuck made any of them. The low bar in the west was set so high when it came to steel that there was really nothing you could do to stand out as an individual.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The effectiveness of armor in d20 games makes plenty of sense if you remember that the original system was based on the premise that level 6 was pretty much an olympic gold medalist in terms of skill. For your average level 1 soldier with maybe 1 or 2 bonus to hit from strength, plate armor and a shield takes you from getting hit 65% of rolls to like 15% That and the fact that the system is meant to abstract things- being 'hit' doesn't mean drawing blood, and making an attack roll doesn't mean swinging your weapon once.

The crazy AC munchkin builds relying on dex have no real comparison in reality. The kind of stats involved would be akin to someone in a mobility scooter trying to hit a housefly.

The point is that japs lack any military evolution and the katana is the basic piece of metal that was 2000 years ago.

The main impressive thing that was done with (some) katanas was composite contruction of the blade. Using brittle steel that holds the edge better for the edge and more flexible steel for the spine is a pretty good technique. It's just not suitable for mass production since it's obvious far more involved and finnicky. Some of these got inanely complicated, and used 7 different pieces of steel in a single blade. Obviously the benefits are marginal, but you have to admit nobody in the west gave enough of a fuck about smithing to do something that crazy.

 

[Lawntoilet]

The comparison here isn't with someone taking gymnastics classes. 10 dodge AC is what you get from 20 points of dex above average. 20 points of strength is the difference between your average human and a giant with a chest 9 feet thick that weighs 7000lbs. It's entirely reasonable that the agility equivalent of a 7000lbs muscleman can avoid damage as well as a generic dude in plate. The dex penalties are also totally reasonable; you can still get an AC bonus even in full plate. And that shit is pretty restrictive.

In Pathfinder, full plate gives +9, not +10. Someone with 22 Dex and leather armor has 18AC, 1AC less than someone with 10 Dex and full plate. Someone with 22 Str is not a "7000lbs muscle man," they're someone who can deadlift 1040lb. That's a lot, obviously, but achievable in the real world.

As far as plate armor being super-restrictive, again not really unless you're swimming. Look up the training of Boucicaut for example. If you wanted to be realistic about penalties then they would be mitigated by high Strength, also.

 

[deuxhero]

Someone with 22 Str is not a "7000lbs muscle man," they're someone who can deadlift 1040lb. That's a lot, obviously, but achievable in the real world.

The world record for weightlifting is 264 kg or 582.0203721680768 pounds. 1040 pounds is outright superhuman, and that's before getting into the fact that record is for a man that weighs over 240 pounds when a sub 100 pound woman can have a 22 strength.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Someone with 22 Str is not a "7000lbs muscle man," they're someone who can deadlift 1040lb. That's a lot, obviously, but achievable in the real world.

The world record for weightlifting is 264 kg or 582.0203721680768 pounds. 1040 pounds is outright superhuman, and that's before getting into the fact that record is for a man that weighs over 240 pounds when a sub 100 pound woman can have a 22 strength.

Are you serious? Google "deadlift world record" and you'll see very clearly that the record is somewhere around 1015 to 1155 lb depending on how strictly you define it.
For women it is about 675lb.
Where did you get that ridiculous number? There are guys at my gym who lift significantly more than that.

 

[deuxhero]

Lawntoilet
That's because the record is the total of two different lift types. Try reading the results instead of just looking at the number.

Your gym guys, if accurate, is likely from a much easier lift than over the head and being able to take a step forward.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Lawntoilet
That's because the record is the total of two different lift types. Try reading the results instead of just looking at the number.
Your gym guys, if accurate, is likely from a much easier lift than over the head and being able to take a step forward.

I specifically said deadlifting. The numbers I cited were for deadlifts, not the "total of two different lift types."
A deadlift is not "a lift over the head and being able to take a step forward."
The records were set by a man lifting a barbell with 1000lbs loaded on it from the ground, to his waist, one time.
You have to be trolling.

 

[Damned Registrations]

The world record for weightlifting is 264 kg or 582.0203721680768 pounds. That's outright superhuman.

Thats for an overhead press, deadlift is indeed about 1000lbs, with a bit more with special gear. Though I doubt anyone deadlifting 1000lbs can also stagger around with it for as long as they'd like as a 22 str character can. I'd put their deadlift somewhere between lift and drag, probably around 1500-2000lbs.

The comparison here isn't with someone taking gymnastics classes. 10 dodge AC is what you get from 20 points of dex above average. 20 points of strength is the difference between your average human and a giant with a chest 9 feet thick that weighs 7000lbs. It's entirely reasonable that the agility equivalent of a 7000lbs muscleman can avoid damage as well as a generic dude in plate. The dex penalties are also totally reasonable; you can still get an AC bonus even in full plate. And that shit is pretty restrictive.

In Pathfinder, full plate gives +9, not +10. Someone with 22 Dex and leather armor has 18AC, 1AC less than someone with 10 Dex and full plate. Someone with 22 Str is not a "7000lbs muscle man," they're someone who can deadlift 1040lb. That's a lot, obviously, but achievable in the real world.

As far as plate armor being super-restrictive, again not really unless you're swimming. Look up the training of Boucicaut for example. If you wanted to be realistic about penalties then they would be mitigated by high Strength, also.

22 dex is well beyond human limits. 22 Str is supposed to be as well (and was before all the roid monkeys joined the records), they represent someone who can naturally lift that kind of weight without having trained specifically for that one lift. A 22 str character would easily hold every single world record in weight lifting and strong man competitions despite having never trained to do so. And you're not comparing evenly, again. You're adding armor to the dodge bonus. Why give the guy in full plate 12 fewer fucking stat points? Should dex do literally nothing? Again, full plate + a normal shield is 10 AC. To get that with dex alone you'd need 30 dex. 30 str is what a fire giant has. Bats get 6 AC with their dex and size bonuses combined.

And strength doesn't mitigate the restrictiveness of plate. The issue is lack of range of movement. If you're overcoming that with strength you're breaking your armor.

Edit: A 22 str character could also SWIM (or sprint, but swimming is funnier) at full speed, no problem, while carrying 180 lbs. Show me the human that can do that.

 

[deuxhero]

A deadlift is not "a lift over the head and being able to take a step forward."

Oh, then the problem is not that you're not using the total record, it's that you're using entirely the wrong record for PF's lifting rules.

A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it.

That's a clean and jerk or snatch, not a deadlift. A deadlift doesn't even reach the waist.

 

[Lawntoilet]

22 dex is well beyond human limits. 22 Str is supposed to be as well (and was before all the roid monkeys joined the records), they represent someone who can naturally lift that kind of weight without having trained specifically for that one lift. A 22 str character would easily hold every single world record in weight lifting and strong man competitions despite having never trained to do so.

18 or 20 in a stat is meant to be the limit of human capacity in 3.PF, is it not? I never disputed that.

And you're not comparing evenly, again. You're adding armor to the dodge bonus.

The issue is the realism of the armor system, I disagree with your position that armor offers a "realistic amount of protection." The point is that a Dex build in leather armor (which offers basically no protection IRL compared to plate) has basically the same AC as plate.

Why give the guy in full plate 12 fewer fucking stat points? Should dex do literally nothing?

The implication obviously is that those points would be in Str for a heavy-armor build.

Again, full plate + a normal shield is 10 AC. To get that with dex alone you'd need 30 dex. 30 str is what a fire giant has. Bats get 6 AC with their dex and size bonuses combined.

There's nothing stopping the Dex build from using a shield either so that AC shouldn't be included since it's equally accessible to both builds.

And strength doesn't mitigate the restrictiveness of plate. The issue is lack of range of movement. If you're overcoming that with strength you're breaking your armor.

Again, read up on Boucicaut or watch some guys run around and do cartwheels and climb and shit in armor. It's not nearly as restrictive as you're implying. Also yes if you are stronger you will be better-able to ignore the armor you're wearing, it's a lot harder to do pull-ups with a weighted vest.

Oh, then the problem is not that you're not using the total record, it's that you're using entirely the wrong record for PF's lifting rules
That's a clean and jerk or snatch, not a deadlift. A deadlift doesn't even reach the waist.

I very clearly said deadlift the first time around. You even highlighted it.
The rule is "A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it," if the implication is that they're meant to be staggering around with the load lifted over their head that is absolutely retarded.

 

[deuxhero]

22 strength load over head=520 pounds
Lift off ground and stumble=1040 pounds

Snatch record=485.0169768067307 pounds
Clean and Jerk Record=582.0203721680768 pounds
Deadlift record=1040

These values are over or within range for the best ever by the largest men to ever do it. That's not even counting how there's more ways to get carrying capacity in PF than just high strength (at least a few feats) anyone focusing on just capacity would have. 22 strength is outdoing a specialist with no special training.

 

[Lawntoilet]

22 strength load over head=520 pounds
Lift off ground and stumble=1040 pounds

Snatch record=485.0169768067307 pounds
Clean and Jerk Record=582.0203721680768 pounds
Deadlift record=1040

These values are over or within range for the best ever by the largest men to ever do it. That's not even counting how there's more ways to get carrying capacity in PF than just high strength (at least a few feats) anyone focusing on just capacity would have.

This is literally exactly what I was saying before .
The point is this is achievable (or nearly achievable) in the real world, not a "7000lb muscleman," and 22 Str is supposed to be well above peak human capacity.
"Lifting as much or slightly more than peak human" doesn't compare to the kind of dodging ability that you get from 22 Dex.

 

[deuxhero]

A dedicated weight lifter in PF would have feats like Cut your Losses (+2 for purpose of carrying capacity). This is outdoing a specialist with no special training.

 

[Lawntoilet]

A dedicated weight lifter in PF would have feats like Cut your Losses (+2 for purpose of carrying capacity). This is outdoing a specialist with no special training.

If 18 is peak human then 22 should be way stronger.
It does not exceed human limits in the same way an extreme high Dex build does.

 

[guestposting]

And strength doesn't mitigate the restrictiveness of plate. The issue is lack of range of movement. If you're overcoming that with strength you're breaking your armor.

Plate was so well articulated that NASA used suits of Milanese plate as inspiration when they were designing the first space suits. Because only the rich could afford it, this stuff was really well thought out. Armorers in 14th-15th century northern Italy/southern Germany were basically running the first full-time commercial research & development labs in history. Cheaper munitions grade plate offered less freedom of movement, but even that was pretty damn good.

It’s much less restrictive than chain, for example, because the weight is distributed way more evenly. In reality, all full plate was more like mithril full plate in D&D/Pathfinder.

***

fantadomat c’mon, a halberd is a spear/axe multiclass. And at least half those levels are in spear.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Someone with 22 Str is not a "7000lbs muscle man," they're someone who can deadlift 1040lb. That's a lot, obviously, but achievable in the real world.

The world record for weightlifting is 264 kg or 582.0203721680768 pounds. 1040 pounds is outright superhuman, and that's before getting into the fact that record is for a man that weighs over 240 pounds when a sub 100 pound woman can have a 22 strength.

You could go to your local gym and probably see someone deadlift more than that any day of the week.

And the real task of carrying that much weight wouldn't be picking it up once, but picking it up and carrying it for hours.

 

[Damned Registrations]

You can do a cartwheel strapped to a fucking table. It's performed with all your limbs extended in straight lines away from your body. Armour isn't cartoonishly restrictive, but you do have limits on how far you can twist, lift your arms, etc. And the +6 AC you get from 22 dex is basically the shit you see Neo do in the Matrix. You can move well enough in plate to fight, but you're not going to dodge bullets or weave around like a boxer. Especially actual armour with all the layers underneath, instead of the hollowed out versions people wear when they want to 'prove' how easy it is to wear.

A dedicated weight lifter in PF would have feats like Cut your Losses (+2 for purpose of carrying capacity). This is outdoing a specialist with no special training.

It'd be even better than that imo, carrying capacity still isn't very specific. The rules aren't designed for lifting barbells, they're for lifting big floppy corpses and moving them across the room without dragging them at all, or the amount of weight you throw on your back and still run and fight with. Throwing 500 lbs on your back jogging 12 miles in 2 hours is pretty fucking super human. If you were to stat out an olympic lifter in the game you'd give them 16-17 strength and some feats or skils specificaly just for their particular event that gave massive bonuses. 18 strength would probably go to one of the more rounded guys in a strong man competition where they pull trucks and shit, Cut your Losses would probably fit better there. But again, all the encumbrance shit isn't meant for competitions, it's real world shit.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

They have a single big civil war and single war with the mongols in the last 1000 years,before the westernization.

What about wars with Emishi? Or about civil war during Kamakura shogunate? Or about Hideyoshi adventures in Korea? Or about christian rebellion?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Especially considering Japanese used ponies as cavalry.

Not such a big deal considering how tiny the Japs are.

 

[fantadomat]

They have a single big civil war and single war with the mongols in the last 1000 years,before the westernization.

What about wars with Emishi? Or about civil war during Kamakura shogunate? Or about Hideyoshi adventures in Korea? Or about christian rebellion?

That is not even wars lol,mole like a bunch of small rebellions and extension of their borders conquest,it is not like the ainu put up any opposition lol. I have no idea how you could give those examples with a strait face,so i take it that you are trolling lol.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

They have a single big civil war and single war with the mongols in the last 1000 years,before the westernization.

What about wars with Emishi? Or about civil war during Kamakura shogunate? Or about Hideyoshi adventures in Korea? Or about christian rebellion?

That is not even wars lol,mole like a bunch of small rebellions and extension of their borders conquest,it is not like the ainu put up any opposition lol. I have no idea how you could give those examples with a strait face,so i take it that you are trolling lol.

Hideyoshi had like 150 thousand troops in Korea. The war took 6 years. LOL muh skirmish, herpa derpa
Ainu and Emishi are different people, you don't know what you are talking about. Emishi resisted Japenese for several decades, there were a few big ass wars, with Emishi having an upper hand in many conflicts.
Genpei War took 5 years, you have big ass battles with hundreds of ships (Dan-no-ura), thousands of combatants (Kurikara).
Even Amakusa rebellion you want to sell as "not real war" had thousands people fighting, mountains of corpses.