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Some feedback from Shoutbox

Gregz

Arcane
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
8,545
Location
The Desert Wasteland
  1. The Great ThunThun:
    Absinthe, what is your problem with AoD?
  2. Sukhāvatī:
    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/175351314874630144/713819914972168312/EYt3pdyXkAI-ZPN.png
  3. Absinthe:
    Axes suck, crit is retardedly strong, dodge is unreliable unless you combo it with crafting to put heavy DR behind it. Shields are master-race of defensive skills.
  4. Absinthe:
    Hardness mechanic was a mistake imo.
  5. rusty_shackleford:
    making fun of AoD for being a cyoa isn't fun anymore now that retards actually call disco communism an rpg
  6. The Great ThunThun:
    Thulsa Doom?
  7. Axe Father:
    Absinthe: Axes suck
  8. Axe Father:
    changing my name to shield father
  9. Absinthe:
    Axe special effect in AoD is more crit damage. If you're already critting you don't really need the extra damage.
  10. Absinthe:
    That reminds me, old axe effect was that it would break shields.
  11. Absinthe:
    No longer.
  12. Axe Father:
    asfasdf asfasdf: friends <- where?
  13. Sukhāvatī:
    https://i.imgur.com/0ecJWf7.mp4
  14. The Great ThunThun:
    Well I have played Thieves mostly followed by assassins
  15. Absinthe:
    There are a lot of ways to rock AoD's combat.
  16. Fedora Master:
    Christ
  17. Fedora Master:
    That thing has spikes
  18. Fedora Master:
    Clearly a Dire Turtle
  19. The Great ThunThun:
    Thieves are broken as they can get most endings and terribly good at combat by end game.
  20. Absinthe:
    Thieves are pretty good for SP whoring and do-everything super-generalist builds, yes.
  21. rusty_shackleford:
    AoD uses squares instead of hexes and therefore is shit
  22. The Great ThunThun:
    ...
  23. The Great ThunThun:
    Square vs hexes is one of the stupid debates.
  24. rusty_shackleford:
    correct
  25. Sukhāvatī:
    Uggs are comfy and fluffy tho
  26. rusty_shackleford:
    hexes are superior in every aspect
  27. BBMorti:
    https://imgur.com/a/gwM3h1r
  28. Absinthe:
    Although I think there's a tactic to get super-trained by going Merchant's Guild, taking Cado's deal, then defecting to Imperial Guards, then going kingmaker, then taking IG training and ultimately defecting to House Aurelian in Maadoran and eventually blowing up Maadoran to enter House Crassus.
  29. Gregz:
    squares aren't too bad as long as you can move and attack diagonally
  30. Gregz:
    hexes are best ofc
  31. Absinthe:
    You can get a lot of trainings that way too.
  32. Sukhāvatī:
    lol BB
  33. Absinthe:
    That will get you a lot of training too. Honestly there's a lot of training just by sticking with MG though, although mostly in Maadoran.
  34. Absinthe:
    I wonder is there a TG defection to MG?
  35. The Great ThunThun:
    Hmm absinthe.
  36. Absinthe:
    I don't think there is one in Maadoran.
  37. The Great ThunThun:
    Thief specializes by getting all the unique stuff.
  38. Absinthe:
    If you avoid the last TG mission you can get into Maadoran as a free agent, but you miss out on a lot I think.
  39. The Great ThunThun:
    Like the mask in the well, lot of money to buy everything and then slowly getting enough SP for total daggers domination + crit / dodge
  40. The Great ThunThun:
    Yeah, the last TG mission nets you a lot of SP and gold.
  41. Absinthe:
    Ah, but if you enter Maadoran early you can get Gaelius's quest for the Helm of Darius I think, for some SP.
  42. The Great ThunThun:
    Also, thieves can steal which also gets you a lot of money
  43. The Great ThunThun:
    Helm of darius is not all that important.
  44. Absinthe:
    You can steal without being TG though.
  45. Absinthe:
    It's not, but it's an SP opportunity.
  46. The Great ThunThun:
    Sure but that the detriment of quests
  47. The Great ThunThun:
    *at the
  48. Absinthe:
    A consolation prize really.
  49. The Great ThunThun:
    Thieves get the quests that need you to steal
  50. The Great ThunThun:
    Yeah
  51. Absinthe:
    Most of the really good shit to steal is in the inns though.
  52. The Great ThunThun:
    Vince tried to neutralize Dodge a lot but I think its still OP
  53. The Great ThunThun:
    Yeah absinthe.
  54. The Great ThunThun:
    All Inns give you a lot of dough.
  55. Absinthe:
    I think he overdid neutralizing dodge. Dodge is still strong though.
  56. The Great ThunThun:
    Yeah
  57. Absinthe:
    It's just that you have to do dodge+crafting to try to achieve non-shit vsCrit.
  58. The Great ThunThun:
    Especially with the counter attacks.
  59. Absinthe:
    Meanwhile block is just so much stronger
  60. Absinthe:
    with crafting a crafted shield plus crafted armor can get you so much higher vsCrit.
  61. The Great ThunThun:
    true while weakening dodge he made block too powerful.
  62. aweigh:
    afternoon gamers
  63. The Great ThunThun:
    Once you get the mechanical armour its all down the drain though.
  64. Absinthe:
    And you get +30 block rating just for using shields, not counting the bonus block you get vs projectiles when using bigger shields.
  65. The Great ThunThun:
    the armour is too good.
  66. Absinthe:
    The power armor isn't really needed though, not when you have giant crafting.
  67. The Great ThunThun:
    i think this is where theives shine.
  68. The Great ThunThun:
    They get almost all the tubes
  69. Absinthe:
    You can make meteor armor and some super-shield easily enough.
  70. The Great ThunThun:
    So they can activate everything.
  71. The Great ThunThun:
    hmm
  72. Absinthe:
    Eh, you can get tons of tubes either way.
  73. The Great ThunThun:
    yeah crafting and alchemy are broken.
  74. The Great ThunThun:
    Can you? I thought there are like 8 in the game.
  75. Absinthe:
    Especially if you skip activating the smelter in Teron
  76. The Great ThunThun:
    yeah that is a noob trap
  77. Absinthe:
    Skip activating smelter, make a deal with the power armor guy for a tube, buy from curio salesman, con one out of the loremaster in Maadoran, get a few from the place where the airship is
  78. The Great ThunThun:
    There are two in the well I think.
  79. Absinthe:
    I forget the rest, but there are more before you even go to Ganezzar
  80. The Great ThunThun:
    I don;t think so Absinthe.
  81. The Great ThunThun:
    I am sure there are none in ganezzar last I played.
  82. Absinthe:
    Yeah I think you can lockpick a few out of the well safe.
  83. Absinthe:
    Ganezzar's commercium building can be robbed for a power tube
  84. The Great ThunThun:
    Ah right
  85. The Great ThunThun:
    Again to the benefit of thieves.
  86. The Great ThunThun:
    I think the Thief is intentionally allowed to be OP.
  87. The Great ThunThun:
    Vince likes Thief: Dark project too much.
  88. Gregz:
    you guys should copy/paste your discussion into his forum here
  89. Gregz:
    he might appreciate the feedback
 

Tacgnol

Shitlord
Patron
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Messages
1,871,750
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
I completely forgot that a bunch of weapon effects got changed when Dungeon Rats got released.

I think maces/hammers got changed to damage armour after DR was released? I can't remember what they did before.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
Here's an older forum post of mine where I went into more depth.

Honestly, a lot can be improved about AoD's combat system. A lot of design ideas have been implemented on top of each other that new mechanics make old ones shitty. Between fast attacks and aimed strikes to the legs, for instance, aiming for the legs is frequently a more appealing option since a good hit will cut an opponent down to size and let you stack penalties until he becomes a joke. Attribute synergies also have shit effects. For instance, 1 dex gives 3 daggers/swords/spears/dodge. If I'm going dodge+swords, 1 point of dex is worth more than 1 point of perception even if there were absolutely no AP bonus for dex. Stat synergies have caused this shit and imo should not exist as they encourage extreme min-maxing to fix your defense. The 10str-8dex-10con build for instance has a full fucking +30 block rating over a 4-10-4-10-8-4 crossbowman build just from its stats, for instance, and that's not counting the bonus block rating you get just for using shields and the extra block rating you get vs ranged weapons. Basic builds like dodge dagger assassin do not work due to how unreliable dodge is even outside of mobility penalties, aimed strikes to the legs, nets, and the extreme likelihood of getting crit for massive damage and losing DR due to the abysmal vsCrit and hardness on light armors. Dodge essentially assumes you have crafting and ideally alchemy too to make some kind of decent DR score with hardness and vsCrit behind it. I think hardness was honestly a mistake as was hammer denting. Originally heavy DR armors were supposed to be counterbalanced by their low defense score and the ability of power attacks to overcome them. Now it's countered by DR denting and aimed strikes horribly crippling you with ludicrous ease along with extreme crit now plowing you open. Incidentally, hardness denting seems like the kind of mechanic designed to make it more viable to damage heavily armored foes, yet ironically you have a much, much easier time denting light DR enemies in crap like leather than heavy armor users which have massive hardness scores. It's ass-backwards design even in terms of its intention. I also think crits shouldn't bypass damage reduction. It's brainless and stupidly powerful. I think crits should've been set up to make aimed strikes viable instead of letting everyone aimed strike out of the box in addition to improving crit rate and that crit skill should give you a bonus to your vsCrit and a minor bonus to THC. As it stands shields are the best way to avoid getting crit because a crafted armor with a crafted shield has a much better vsCrit than anything a dodge build can come up with. Dodge builds are resigned to getting crit for damage, esp. when you factor in their tendency to wear light armors. Axes and hammers both need a different weapon mastery effect and I think you should be able to collect a weapon mastery and crit on the same attack. For some reason, right now you can't, which makes crit swords awful (used to be good back when weapon mastery for swords was extra crit chance). Incidentally, the latest axe rework resulted in axe-wielding NPCs without proper crit, which is ridiculously bad, whereas previously axe and crit was the bad combination. I also think that antidotes shouldn't just lower the current poison intake but basically give you extra poison resist for a limited duration. Right now antidotes are fucking useless if you're liable to get poisoned all over again each turn. Just a bloody waste of precious APs. I also don't agree with the combat training you get for killing shit. Combat SP are already a reward for murder. If I'm making the Thief escape from Teron and I get to choose between killing everything and talking my way out of everything, it's a little silly that it's plainly more rewarding for me to go murder everything that moves just for the bonus combat training rewards that stack up there. I also think Liquid Fires need a rework since the way they provide damage bypassing DR on top of barriers to shoot behind makes ranged combat too easy. I can hole up in a corner and liquid fire the tile diagonally in front of me and only big spears will be able to melee me. Bolas I think should be more dependent on throwing and crit rate to be effective. Nets should be more demanding on your throwing skill too. I also think healers should be less expensive and that you shouldn't get to make healing medicine until at least 3 alchemy and that they should start with healing 5 or maybe 10 points. Atm healers are a straight waste of money. I only used them in my last playthrough because I had too much money to burn and to get the Maadoran healer quest, a sidequest players are liable to never discover if they just opt to use their own much cheaper alchemy heals like everyone recommends instead of her services. I also think you shouldn't have your starting SP divided into combat SP and social SP. It was a rather bad division from the start. I can understand getting combat SP from combat but dividing skill points the way the game does strongly suggests that you're supposed to hybrid towards both combat and noncombat which is a fucking terrible message to send newbies. Social skills like Crafting and Alchemy are also plainly more combat skills than social skills and Perception is also a combat stat despite giving social SP. Also the F1 tutorial is out of date giving incorrect explanations of mechanics, character creation shows the wrong critical rating for your character when you rank crit, and a number of subtler mechanical features (constitution's vsCrit effects and poison scaling aspects, str and per's bonuses to aimed strikes, dex's initiative score, armor AP limitations vs dex and the ability to raise the limits through crafting) have to be discovered rather than being explained to you during chargen. The combat tutorial is also shitty in terms of explaining how combat really works. The most it offers is a practice opportunity and some painfully basic advice like skilling your attack and defense skill. AoD lacks a proper manual on this shit too.

Overall there are too many ways to cheese enemies and a number of intuitive builds just don't work as well as they should. If you ask me maxing weapon+block+crafting would be my basic advice for newbies (along with using whetstones). You can't really lose that way.
 

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