Something odd about KotOR and bioware praise (spoilers)

[Saint_Proverbius]

http://swforums.bioware.com/viewtopic.h ... 2&forum=27

I like how Bioware implemented several puzzles in this game that weren't just your garden variety puzzles. The towers of hanoi, the water jugs problem and even the squares where adjacent squares are off when you turn on a square. Sheesh. I guess I'm eventually going to have to have my book out when I'm playing.

Anyone else find it rather odd that BioWare is getting praised for using classic, well known puzzles as opposed to actually making their own? The only one I've run across, I recognised fairly quickly, which made it no challenge whatsoever. The Towers of Hanoi is overdone and there's way too much documentation on the subject for it to be a challenge for anyone that recognises it. Even if you don't, it's a simple puzzle. The water jugs thing is pretty common as well, and was even done in Die Hard 3.

It's not even so much the lack of originality here, but also the way they're implimented. The square puzzle one, the last mentionned, is a method of turning off a cell to release a captured alien but if you get it reversed from the release code, it executes the prisoner. It seems like this puzzle was just tossed in with some consequence of failure versus success rather than a well thought out use for the puzzle. Why would they make a cell for interrogating require so much thinking, when in error, you can terminate the prisoner if you're trying to move him to another cell or free him if you want to kill him?

It kind of reminds me of the Electric Floor Door Maze in Fallout 2. While that was fairly original, unlike the one in KotOR, neither really makes any sense from a functional standpoint. While one could argue that guards are given instructions from the default setting on how to punch in the sequence that gives the desired result, anyone could come along and tamper with it - altering it from the desired default set up.

 

[Volourn]

To be honest, I like the puzzles because I don't have a good memory for old puzzles used often. Some, of course, are exemptions and I do remmeber. perhaps this poster either doesn't have experience with former uses of said puzzles or doesn't recall them. Who knows.

 

[Taoreich]

What I don't get, is that people haven't faulted Bio for using words. I mean, how derivitive is it that throughout the game you see letters comprising words which, in turn, form sentences. Then, wouldn't you know it, these sentences become paragraphs. Heck- every game in the world does this at some point and Fallout was the teh win 11!1 in this regard; why isn't this noted in reviews?!?!

Heck, I heard they actually use computer code to build the game!!! What's up with that? Can't they do anything original?

And the people ! Is it too much to think that they might invent something new to play?

 

[slavemaster]

What I don't get, is that people haven't faulted Bio for using words. I mean, how derivitive is it that throughout the game you see letters comprising words which, in turn, form sentences. Then, wouldn't you know it, these sentences become paragraphs. Heck- every game in the world does this at some point and Fallout was the teh win 11!1 in this regard; why isn't this noted in reviews?!?!

Heck, I heard they actually use computer code to build the game!!! What's up with that? Can't they do anything original?

And the people ! Is it too much to think that they might invent something new to play?

Anyone else find it rather odd that BioWare is getting praised for using classic, well known puzzles

If you're going to troll properly, at least learn how to read.

 

[Seven]

What I don't get, is that people haven't faulted Bio for using words. I mean, how derivitive is it that throughout the game you see letters comprising words which, in turn, form sentences. Then, wouldn't you know it, these sentences become paragraphs. Heck- every game in the world does this at some point and Fallout was the teh win 11!1 in this regard; why isn't this noted in reviews?!?!

Heck, I heard they actually use computer code to build the game!!! What's up with that? Can't they do anything original?

And the people ! Is it too much to think that they might invent something new to play?

The critique of bioware is based on the fact that reviewers think that everything they do is original and that they can do no wrong. As it has been demonstrated they are not original and their games are not perfect. The critique of bioware is designed to point this out. BTW, lame ass non-comparisons don't actually generate a point so what is your point?

 

[Transcendent One]

What I don't get, is that people haven't faulted Bio for using words. I mean, how derivitive is it that throughout the game you see letters comprising words which, in turn, form sentences. Then, wouldn't you know it, these sentences become paragraphs. Heck- every game in the world does this at some point and Fallout was the teh win 11!1 in this regard; why isn't this noted in reviews?!?!

Heck, I heard they actually use computer code to build the game!!! What's up with that? Can't they do anything original?

And the people ! Is it too much to think that they might invent something new to play?

Faulting them for using words in the game would be idiocy. And Fallout is in no way the king of RPG dialog, though I do not know of any games that came before it that had the same freedom and diversity in their dialog trees (if any). And of course a computer game would be written in computer code :shock:

Your poor attempt at sarcasm succeeds at nothing. The fact is, Bioware does not introduce much original gameplay aspects into their games.

 

[Taoreich]

double post...bah

 

[Taoreich]

Net Result, for those playing at home:

The general consensus about Bio, which you've described is the exact antithesis of this review, the other side of the Pendulum's swing; i.e. is not any more or less righteous. Hence the irony.

But if I am piercing the side of your messiah, I apologize.

 

[Volourn]

No. As a BIO fan I agree with those who say that BIO is no more, or less original than other companiers. Praise for them is usually way over the top. then again, the derision of BIO's works are also often over the top as well. Works both ways.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Yeah, people do tend to go way overboard when it comes to BIO, I will admit that. As I've said before, I do like (not love) some of the games they have pumped out recently, but only in certain respects. I do, however, love KOTOR despite it's minor problems. It's a wonderfully fun game.

 

[Volourn]

Minor problems? MINOR? It has HUGE problems! For starters, it crashes 99.9% of the time when a news creen loads! Kinda reminds me of the silly TOEE thing. Grrr!!!

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

I'm playing the Xbox version. Can't afford the PC version yet.

 

[dipdipdip]

It doesn't surprise me considering I've seen them accredited for inventing everything from dialogue trees to racing mini-games.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

But if I am piercing the side of your messiah, I apologize.

Nah, more like writing nonsensical graffiti in water-soluble paint during a rainstorm. No harm done.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

What I don't get, is that people haven't faulted Bio for using words. I mean, how derivitive is it that throughout the game you see letters comprising words which, in turn, form sentences. Then, wouldn't you know it, these sentences become paragraphs. Heck- every game in the world does this at some point and Fallout was the teh win 11!1 in this regard; why isn't this noted in reviews?!?!

There's a huge difference between using words, part of a language, and using exact puzzles as someone else created. So, basically, your sarcasm is built on an analogy which shows a complete lack of comprehension of the subject at hand. I wasn't saying puzzles are bad, I was saying puzzles that are common and created centuries ago are bad.

However, since you brought words up, it's also interesting they did a whole quest centered around a Romeo and Juliet thing, which is oh, so original as well. Nope, no one's ever beaten that idea to death.

 

[Volourn]

SP, yeah; but still; the side story itslef may have been created years ago; but I still think it was done well... and though I personally only did it one way; I believe there are multiple solutions to the quest. I also don't think I did it in the "best" way. Hehe.

 

[Taoreich]

Oh don't be silly.

At their essences, your statement and my riposte are both emotionally based arguments, incapable of refutation; more invective than info. You voiced your derision of Bio and the seeming unjustified critical outpouring of love for them, and I voiced my amusement at the irony. No harm done.

If you truly want reasonable responses to either, my only possible statement is that I'm a smart-ass who flies fast and loose with my analogies and the eternal hard-on for Bio is your only option. For empirical serve and volley we'd have to start anew.

So it goes...

 

[Noviere]

Minor problems? MINOR? It has HUGE problems! For starters, it crashes 99.9% of the time when a news creen loads! Kinda reminds me of the silly TOEE thing. Grrr!!!

I only crashed about 3 times from the beginning of the game until the end. And never during a load screen.

 

[Jarinor]

Anyone else find it rather odd that BioWare is getting praised for using classic, well known puzzles as opposed to actually making their own?

Ah yes, let us all remember the bygone days of yore, when game designers were programmers, graphic artists and sound technicians all rolled in one, and actual gameplay had to be devised because pretty effects sure as hell didn't cut it.

Seriously, why is it that the best puzzles I've ever run into came from a very old shareware game (and my favourite example of gameplay over technology) Excelsior. Best puzzles ever. The trend for this game was to have signposts which posed the question/riddle/whatnot (ignore the fact that a signpost is somehow supposed to do this). What was important were the clues, and how you had to think them through. Specific example: In a cave, signpost in the middle, with half a dozen or so compass readings (as in SE, N, W, NE, S, NW, although not that exactly). What are you supposed to do? After spending several hours on the phone with my friend trying everything we could think of, we stumbled upon the answer - following the directions led you to rock formations which looked vaguely like letters, put them together and you have the answer to the riddle (entered at yet another signpost). That's the only one I can clearly remember, mainly because it was such a bitch to solve, but every puzzle in the game was original.

Now apparently we have the Towers of Hanoi - which any IT student is sick of - being presented in a game as something that needs to be solved. Never mind that I've seen my five year old cousin do it no problems, this is obviously high quality stuff people!

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Most gamers nowadays really aren't aware of things which were used in past games. Hence its no wonder they hype a company when said company gives them regurgitated ideas, with graphics which are more easy on the eyes than their predecessors. Its a wonder how Bio wasn't credited for being the first-ever CRPG creators

 

[Vault Dweller]

It's not even so much the lack of originality here, but also the way they're implimented. The square puzzle one, the last mentionned, is a method of turning off a cell to release a captured alien but if you get it reversed from the release code, it executes the prisoner.

I agree, it is retarded. The puzzle there doesn't make any sense. It's like if you had to solve a puzzle every time you turn your PC on.

What pisses me off though is that these things are not even intended to make you think or figure something out, the put-the-band-members-in-order puzzle requires you to read the disk in the same room, the open-a-box-with-a-password puzzle requires you to read the only (!) message one step away from the box.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Oh don't be silly.

At their essences, your statement and my riposte are both emotionally based arguments, incapable of refutation; more invective than info. You voiced your derision of Bio and the seeming unjustified critical outpouring of love for them, and I voiced my amusement at the irony. No harm done.

If you truly want reasonable responses to either, my only possible statement is that I'm a smart-ass who flies fast and loose with my analogies and the eternal hard-on for Bio is your only option. For empirical serve and volley we'd have to start anew.

So it goes...

Standard IQ test question:

Puzzles are to Tower of Hanoi as Words are to _______

 

[Rosh]

(Pssst! The answer is CHEESE!)

 

[Sol Invictus]

Minor problems? MINOR? It has HUGE problems! For starters, it crashes 99.9% of the time when a news creen loads! Kinda reminds me of the silly TOEE thing. Grrr!!!

That's a bug with certain configurations. You can stop that from happening by disabling the Frame Buffer and restarting the game. Try disabling Hardware Mouse Cursor as well. i had a similar problem but it cleared up when I took these measures. Bioware knows about the problem (It's an Intel chipset issue, as well as a Radeon one) and it will (hopefully) be fixed.

Beyond that there's no real 'huge' problems or whatever the heck.

Oh yeah, Saint - mouse movement doesn't work the way you said it did. It's more along the lines of 'press right mouse button to enter movement mode and press left mouse button to move forwards while using mouse as a movement guide' rather than old school adventure-style.

It's fun to play while you eat.

 

[Volourn]

Hmm.. Might as try that as nothing else has worked. What's funny. It alternates. Sometimes I can play for decent strecthes with no or very few crashes; other times it crashes 100% of the time. Annoying as heck.