Spiderweb games and kickstarter

[cutterjohn]

Am I the only one that doesn't think that jeff could successfully get enough monies to make a MUCH BETTER glitzy game than he currently puts out if he put up a brand new project to kickstarter and informed all of his customers?

It seems to me that half of kickstarter is a bunch of free publicity as well as the money if you are known and pick reasonable target amount, or have a product fairly well along and again a fairly reasonable target amount.

Jeff could shed his tacky 1980s graphics and cludgey engine and REALLY do something fun...

(Unfortunately I'm guessing that he'll be too conservative and not even bother trying unless prodded...)

 

[Metro]

The graphics/presentation are the least of Vogel's problems. The mechanics and design on the majority of his games are just flat out poor to mediocre at best.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

I really think not. Jeff Vogel needs to release one new game a year, and these new elements would need more time to be implemented. Everything he does is based on stability and predictability. Also, his games are plain, and all look alike. He wouldn't be able to compel many people, and he would need to be accountable to them in turn. He would also have to relinquish some of his control and freedom.

He will never change his current model, especially since he's said that with Steam and iOS it makes him much more money.

 

[circ]

Am I the only one that doesn't think that jeff could successfully get enough monies to make a MUCH BETTER glitzy game than he currently puts out if he put up a brand new project to kickstarter and informed all of his customers?

It seems to me that half of kickstarter is a bunch of free publicity as well as the money if you are known and pick reasonable target amount, or have a product fairly well along and again a fairly reasonable target amount.

Jeff could shed his tacky 1980s graphics and cludgey engine and REALLY do something fun...

(Unfortunately I'm guessing that he'll be too conservative and not even bother trying unless prodded...)

Are you serious? DEAD FUCKING SERIOUS? SURE?

This is the same Jeff Dicks Vogel who with a big enough budget would like to make a BioWare game.

 

[Excommunicator]

This is the same Jeff Dicks Vogel who with a big enough budget would like to make a BioWare game.

Keep him the hell away from money and from RPGs then

 

[Hepler's Vagina]

I agree that with a few more $ he could keep turn based combat in the more mainstream spotlight. Show people that this system is not a result of some 1980s button-awesome mapping limitations. [avadon spoilers] And hopefully with more $ he'd improve C&C and factions. I was convinced Avadon was taking me towards some sort of a big end-game decision - support lawful evil Redbeard or chaotic good Tawon. Sadly I was just railroaded into a boss battle with Redbeard, not knowing anything about Tawon or why I should even consider supporting the Wayfarer.

 

[sea]

If Jeff got more money, ideally he'd spend it in a few very key ways -

1. A new designer. Not someone to replace him, just someone else to bounce ideas off of and to contribute to the story and scenarios. I like Jeff's games and universes, but the man only has so many ideas and having someone to collaborate with would inject a lot more originality into his games. More practically it would let him focus more on the technical side of things while the other designer is fully dedicated to making good gameplay.
2. More quality, less filler. Sort of tying in with the above, but it's very obvious that Jeff's games are made on strict budgets and largely inflated to reach the 50 hour mark. Granted, a lot of RPGs have filler, but Jeff's games especially feel like they're 80% wandering around the map getting from A to B, or fighting trash mobs along the way, again and again. I would easily take a 20 hour Spiderweb game with puzzles, engaging dialogue, more skill checks, real choice & consequence, etc. than 40/50 hours of boredom.
3. New audio. I know Spiderweb isn't about presentation, but I'm getting really, really tired of the same old sound effects and ambient sounds that have been around since 2001. Can't Jeff manage to scrounge up $25 for a few CDs with some copyright-free effects and soundscapes? Maybe even an actual soundtrack for a change? There are plenty of composers out there who would be thrilled to work on games like his.

That said, his games are selling more than ever. He really doesn't need Kickstarter to keep doing what he's doing, and in truth I don't know if it would reflect well on him were he to just start asking for money in advance without offering significant improvements.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

After Avadon I believe that giving money to Vogel means just contributing to the decline.

 

[zeitgeist]

If he wanted and/or could make better games, he would, it's not a money issue.

 

[Mother Russia]

Yes it is actually, he has stated it numerous times. That is the reason he releases a game a year and remakes all his games.

A kickstarter that nets him a million bucks would be the best thing for us all. It would enable him to break the paradigm and make a fantastic game that even puts KOTC, Grimrock and Eschalon to shame in every arena. He already has one thing right, his games are turnbased and tactical.

 

[Metro]

If he wanted and/or could make better games, he would, it's not a money issue.

Exactly. You could make better turn based RPGs with this:

 

[betamin]

...that even puts KOTC to shame in every arena..

Hahahhaahahhaahahahahahaha.

I really love Geneforge but Vogel is the same guy that said that his games can't have tactical depth because of the small amount of units you control... that was the most stunningly stupid thing I've heard him say, this is coming from someone that gives ZERO relevance to terrain, elevations, amount of movement and a myriad of elements that could give his games a lot of depth. And the sorry ass excuse for not developing the combat system more is the amount of units. KOTC guy seems much more capable and would get all my money. I still have fun with Geneforge though.

 

[Mother Russia]

Have u played the Exile trilogy? If not, play them then come back. U will be posting to a different tune I assure u.

 

[Mortmal]

Jeff's Vogel, model , his ideal , is dragon age . If he did turn based rpg, its cause he couldnt do anything else with his budget and probably dont know how to make something else, i dont think he likes doing that.Give him a big budget and youll have an emotionnaly engaged game, with voice over, and as much linearity as a bioware . I liked the avernum and geneforge but i cant say hes innovating much or making progress, this is the very same mechanisms copy pasted in each of the sequels. Now with avadon hes even going backward with simplified and dumbed down character builds, not to mention a very cliche and boring story, although he had all the freedom to make any setting he wanted.

 

[cutterjohn]

It was merely a thought, and yes along with the gfx i figured he could actually afford some additional full time help.

That said I haven't read any interviews with him in years and haven't really bothered with his recent games(other than I got avadon as part of a bundle that I bought) as they were all just remakes of his older games, which I see he has started the next cycle of... And yes, Dragon Age like game would suck, but with Avadon he's already heading more that way further streamlining his games... kind of... in a weird sort of Jeff way...

I preferred the mechanics of his older Exile games but didn't particularly care for the inventory limitations... what can I say? I'm a packrat in RPGs/adventures ever since I'd gotten burned by some game whose name I've forgotten, when I had dropped an essential item somewhere...

 

[sea]

I really love Geneforge but Vogel is the same guy that said that his games can't have tactical depth because of the small amount of units you control... that was the most stunningly stupid thing I've heard him say, this is coming from someone that gives ZERO relevance to terrain, elevations, amount of movement and a myriad of elements that could give his games a lot of depth. And the sorry ass excuse for not developing the combat system more is the amount of units. KOTC guy seems much more capable and would get all my money. I still have fun with Geneforge though.

To be fair Jeff is also a firm believer in sticking to his core engine tech and exploiting it as much as he can. The reason his games don't make terrain etc. important is because the engine doesn't support it and he's not willing to go add it in. Is it a good excuse? Not really, he's more than capable of doing this stuff. But I get the sense he's justifying it more on a technical level than design level, at least based on other stuff he's written.

Regarding Avadon - truth be told it had a much better story, with way more subtlety and depth than any BioWare game, though it's way too slow-paced. Really good world-building as well, just as good as any Obsidian game, and the plot arises very naturally from the questions the world itself poses. From what I've heard he's considering adding a lot more complexity back into Avadon 2 after all the complaints he got from his fanbase about dumbing things down.

 

[Nim]

It's a pointless discussion anyway. Just look how long it took him to get to a not totally sucking interface (G5/A6). That was at the end of 2008. Expecting him to make elevation and terrain more relevant anytime soon is just lol ( though he did get enough flak on the forums for A4 lacking any elevation and thus added it in in 5 iirc).

Edit: Personally, I'd love to have some kind of interrupt system. As is things are just too abusable.

 

[betamin]

I really love Geneforge but Vogel is the same guy that said that his games can't have tactical depth because of the small amount of units you control... that was the most stunningly stupid thing I've heard him say, this is coming from someone that gives ZERO relevance to terrain, elevations, amount of movement and a myriad of elements that could give his games a lot of depth. And the sorry ass excuse for not developing the combat system more is the amount of units. KOTC guy seems much more capable and would get all my money. I still have fun with Geneforge though.

To be fair Jeff is also a firm believer in sticking to his core engine tech and exploiting it as much as he can. The reason his games don't make terrain etc. important is because the engine doesn't support it and he's not willing to go add it in. Is it a good excuse? Not really, he's more than capable of doing this stuff. But I get the sense he's justifying it more on a technical level than design level, at least based on other stuff he's written..

Yeah but I think he's more than capable of implementing terrain and, for example, some sort of speed based turn system like final fantasy tactics instead of just determining the turn order and keeping it fixed. To me it's his choice to make his games (and his life as a programmer, not only the engine but the AI would have to improve to be able to compute these new variables) simpler; I could respect him a lot more if he would just come out and say "It's the engine/design choice to not make the game as tactical as possible" instead of blaming it on the amount of units you can use, someone should point him to fft 1.3 for an example but I think he knows and just lies to everybody and probably to himself to justify his pure business decision.