Official RPG Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Star Wars Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Remake from Aspyr

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Morgoth, Jan 24, 2020.

  1. KörangarTheMighty Learned

    KörangarTheMighty
    Joined:
    May 25, 2021
    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    The western road to Erromon.
    An attempt was made by Darth Plagueis to gain power over life and death somehow, but the Force resisted. It created Anakin as a reaction to their meddling. That's according to the old canon.
     
    ^ Top  
  2. Jiggy Boobles TESTOSTERONIC As Fuck™ Patron

    Jiggy Boobles
    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2010
    Messages:
    15,289
    Shadorwun: Hong Kong
    The governor of California is doing that right now and he has zero sith powers or lightsabers.

    Probably.
     
    • Funny Funny x 5
    • Participation Award Participation Award x 1
    • nice nice x 1
    ^ Top  
  3. Storyfag Perfidious Pole Patron

    Storyfag
    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Messages:
    11,059
    Location:
    A Dark Place
    Yeah, but he doesn't have to contend with thousands of beings literally capable of mind-reading.
     
    • Balanced Balanced x 1
    ^ Top  
  4. Zibniyat Arcane

    Zibniyat
    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Messages:
    5,632
    She obviously can't do that. Nobody can, except each and every one sentient being for themselves.

    For a child, perhaps. It is a banal, shallow and upon more serious inspection incoherent arbiter, and most certainly not moral one.

    It is impossible to agree with her and think the way you do.
     
    ^ Top  
  5. KörangarTheMighty Learned

    KörangarTheMighty
    Joined:
    May 25, 2021
    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    The western road to Erromon.
    She attempts this during the course of KotOR II. If she couldn't do it, she hoped you would. What happened to the Exile was one in a million and would not solve the problem of subsequent generations. It required a permanent solution.

    Is it? Or could Kreia be wrong on all counts? If the Force ceased to be an influencing factor how do you know things would get better and not worse? No Jedi, no Sith. All actors unrestrained by any morals. Number of wars might go up, length of them could increase and frequency of occurrence could go through the roof. No way of knowing for certain. This is what she claims to value in its removal but I think that's only the surface of it. The reality of it is this: There are very few Jedi who ever fall and even fewer galaxy spanning wars. Over the course of ~25,000 years you can count them on two or three hands.

    I think what Kreia is reeling against is that some beings in the galaxy are selected for a higher purpose and have no choice in the matter, overriding their soaring desires and crippling their ability to overcome their own struggles through merit. This is the basis on which I agree with her. She is correct in this regard for certain and therefore the Force should be removed.
     
    ^ Top  
  6. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    Messages:
    15,357
    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Yeah, in the old canon, but the new comics heavily imply Palpatine was the one who created Anakin -
    [​IMG]
    The original script of the Episode III also outright states this -
    Even if you don't interpret that scene from the comic as Palpatine impregnating Anakin's mother, it's still obvious he did something to the unborn child. Anakin isn't the chosen one, he's the spawn of the devil.
     
    • WTF am I reading WTF am I reading x 1
    • Disgusting! Disgusting! x 1
    ^ Top  
  7. Storyfag Perfidious Pole Patron

    Storyfag
    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Messages:
    11,059
    Location:
    A Dark Place
    One does not preclude the other. "A prophecy which misunderstood might have been, hmm."
     
    ^ Top  
  8. KörangarTheMighty Learned

    KörangarTheMighty
    Joined:
    May 25, 2021
    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    The western road to Erromon.
    I'm going off the wiki which contradicts this even in the new canon section. Both articles state the Force or more specifically the midichlorians conceived him. Moreover, Palpatine is a liar.

    If it didn't make it in the film it's not canon, Lucas clearly changed his mind somewhere along the line in regard to the script. At the end of the day though, I don't care about anything in the new canon. It's not my wheelhouse.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2021
    ^ Top  
  9. Fenix Arcane Vatnik

    Fenix
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2015
    Messages:
    6,303
    Location:
    Russia atchoum!
    As I told above earlier - whole third-fourth-n side additional to dohotomy good-evil or ligth-dark or invent-your-name appeared only beacuse people en masse stop to understand what is good or what is evil. It's times of moral relativism, when you need to some "new" and "cool" force/side/view whatever, because you don't understand what old one mean.
    Coinscedentally, that mean that explaining them that don't bring any fruits, as they not able to understand that in principle.
    So don't broke the spears...
     
    • No No x 1
    • Bad Spelling Bad Spelling x 1
    • what? what? x 1
    ^ Top  
  10. Zibniyat Arcane

    Zibniyat
    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Messages:
    5,632
    You conflate morality with the Force. But within the (Star Wars) universe you still have countless civilisations where the Force plays minor role, or none at all. It is the work of the Force, Jedi and the Sith to have constructed a religion and moral foundation out of the Force, as if objective morality is in any way dependent on there being a supernatural magic-like people roaming around. It is not. In fact, originally the Force was something mythical, and force users were considered extinct, extremely rare or a combination of myth and reality. The Force is not moral and is not needed for morality.

    Perhaps the scope, viciousness and length of wars would decrease. It is the Force which has fueled the biggest atrocities, with or without using the technology. It is the unnatural abilities of the Sith which enabled them to wipe out whole planets with ease.

    Perhaps, but a single Sith is capable of undoing the supposed millennia of peace, progress, wealth and good. To be honest, this sort of points out to Jedi being so pathetic, which they are. But quantity here matters little when in the grand scheme of things, through the workings of the Force, it all has to be balanced. Suffering is more extreme than its absence, when it comes to how it's experienced, so it takes just s few decades to cause such misery that rivals or surpasses these millennia of peace.

    Her greatest contribution is in pointing out how the Force seeks to balance things. Jedi, in their blind belief in the duality of the Force, thought that this balance is precisely only the good things, or what we could say are good things (there are good things which cannot be expressed without there being evil in the first place, and all good things must come to pass). But they are mistaken, and the Force in its own will has a different position, one where the "dark side" also has to express itself. And in equal measure.

    So in the end it ends up like a zero-sum game. Which, actually, is bad. For if the sum of all is one big nothing, then it is bad, for nothingness isn't of value or goodness, but is instead something to be avoided. The entire effort and time of Jedi and Sith everywhere, at a galactic scale, is one big nothing.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  11. Harthwain Magister

    Harthwain
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2019
    Messages:
    2,383
    That premise is the result of the original Star Wars trilogy: the good Jedi (Luke Skywalker) fighting the bad Sith (Darth Vader). Good versus Evil. This manichaeism worked, because what George Lucas came up with was essentially a fable. But it doesn't mean you can't push the boundaries. By the way, the myth of Palpatine being the strongest Sith also exists purely because of the original trilogy. Otherwise it would be fine for him to be just the strongest Sith at that point in time.
     
    ^ Top  
  12. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    Messages:
    15,357
    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    The more spicy elements of Star Wars indeed come from the prequels. Too bad they are unwatchable.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  13. KörangarTheMighty Learned

    KörangarTheMighty
    Joined:
    May 25, 2021
    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    The western road to Erromon.
    I'm using "morality" as a shorthand. The Force is involved in every civilization whether they are capable of perceiving it or not. The fact is this: An energy field created by all living things selects avatars seemingly at random, but also during times of dire need to enforce its will. What is its will? That life expands but also that measured entropic forces continue to exist in the world to maintain a balance. The Sith are antithetical to this balance because they are capable of becoming like Nihilus or worse given enough time. The Force does not allow them to exist in power for long periods through several defense mechanisms. This is the morality of Star Wars and as long as the Force exists it is enforced.

    No, they're not. Even their strongest was removed after being in power for only 40 years or so and the galaxy at that point went back to business as usual. His damage was significant, but it didn't undo the development of ~25,000 years of peace. But you have touched on the reason that they are not allowed to endure long. You can destroy a planet at the push of a button, you cannot heal one in the same way. Balance in the Force has nothing to do with the Sith showing up according to GL. They represent imbalance. Evil continues to exist with or without them. Entropic forces exist without them. The Jedi are not about removing all influence of the Dark Side, such a thing isn't possible, just the Sith.

    What I get from all these common copes is that certain fans are desperate to equate Jedi and Sith as two sides of the same coin or as moral equivalents of each other due to the latter's role in entropy. They throw the baby out with the bathwater and say that despite there being thousands of years of peace and relative prosperity in the galaxy the Jedi are bad because they very, very rarely become corrupt and embrace the Sith ideology, putting the galaxy in a rough place for a short time on very rare occasion. They fail to account for the Jedi being a deterrent to all but the strongest foes.

    No, they didn't. They thought balance was balance. Light and dark exist, should exist, but the dark is not to rule your actions. They're correct.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  14. KörangarTheMighty Learned

    KörangarTheMighty
    Joined:
    May 25, 2021
    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    The western road to Erromon.
    I don't disagree, though I will say that deconstructions like KotOR II work so well because they abide by the rules that Lucas established, circumventing them without contradicting them. Other works should always follow suit.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    ^ Top  
  15. Louis_Cypher Arcane

    Louis_Cypher
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2016
    Messages:
    535
    Don't believe every dogma the Jedi and Sith speak about the Force. Don't believe that 'The Phantom Menace' really defined the Force as biological and hereditary only by an elite caste. George Lucas puts words into characters mouths, representing their relative cultural views of the time, but doesn't reveal what he actually thinks about the Force. I have my own view. I think the telekinetic and other paranormal abilities are nothing to do with the Force, they are simply products of symbiosis with the Midichlorians, but that symbiosis may be an indicator of something underlying. Is it M-counts that determine Force ability, or Force ability that attracts high M-counts? The Jedi mindset of the time, interest in things like Midichlorians, is meant to be a sign of their times, a comfortable institution embedded in the Republic that engages in scholasticism.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  16. Jiggy Boobles TESTOSTERONIC As Fuck™ Patron

    Jiggy Boobles
    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2010
    Messages:
    15,289
    Shadorwun: Hong Kong
    This chlorine bullshit didn't even exist until it was retconned into episode 1. Along with Jar Jar Binks and other retarded ideas.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 3
    • Funny Funny x 1
    ^ Top  
  17. Zibniyat Arcane

    Zibniyat
    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Messages:
    5,632
    Yes.

    But we will have to agree to disagree, as I'm losing interest in continuing this discussion or repeating myself. I just want you, at least, to notice how your argument how "25000 years of peace > 40 years of destruction" is a subjective one, not objective. For me, the disappearance of one Miraluka world along with the billions of people is a thing which in its magnitude is worse than the thousands of years of galactic peace. These are hard to prove stances, and I'm not going to argue further, I just hope you yourself is capable of seeing that you also rely on unproven, subjective views of the matter.

    With that we can conclude this discussion. Until next time then.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    ^ Top  
  18. T.Ashpool Learned

    T.Ashpool
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2020
    Messages:
    239
    they will remove all the sexiness from bastila and give her a non passing manface you know it's going to happen :negative:
     
    • decline decline x 3
    • Despair Despair x 1
    • Math! Math! x 1
    ^ Top  
  19. KörangarTheMighty Learned

    KörangarTheMighty
    Joined:
    May 25, 2021
    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    The western road to Erromon.
    Yes, that is fine. I'll just say that I did already acknowledge that there is no way of knowing how the scales would balance on cost of life between the two options a few posts prior.

    Very well, good talk.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 3
    ^ Top  
  20. Drop Bear Learned

    Drop Bear
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2020
    Messages:
    120
    This is a common misconception among nerds who don't really know anything but want to complain anyway. George Lucas always had the idea of the force that he made more explicit in TPM. Stormtroopers were also always clones and you can read articles from the OT period and long before the prequels came out stating this to be the case. It just never became relevant in the original trilogy and was never brought up.
     
    • [citation needed] [citation needed] x 4
    • No No x 2
    • FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS x 1
    ^ Top  
  21. Jedi Master Radek Arcane

    Jedi Master Radek
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2013
    Messages:
    3,791
    Citation needed.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  22. Stokowski Arcane

    Stokowski
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    3,935
    Location:
    Gehenna
    [​IMG]

     
    • decline decline x 1
    • Old Old x 1
    ^ Top  
  23. Rusty Eyes aka Auraculum

    Self-Ejected
    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2021
    Messages:
    137
    What he's talking about is a Dark Force vision had by Vader himself, so the truthfulness of such a thing is debatable. Also, please stop bringing Disney headcanon in here - that very same comic series later has Vader on Exogol - just so retards who think that "muh Filoni" is going to retcon the Sequel Trilogy don't get overly enthusiastic.
     
    ^ Top  
  24. Storyfag Perfidious Pole Patron

    Storyfag
    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Messages:
    11,059
    Location:
    A Dark Place
    So, this thread made me replay KotOR. Just finished.

    Holds up pretty well, even despite the horribad console interface. Last good BW singleplayer game. Love the implementation of skills such as repair and computer use. Even demolitions is useful enough, though its scope is vastly limited. Too bad lightsabers and Force persuasion make respectively security and persuasion skills useless. But their later games simply do not maintain such systems any more. Writing, while cringeworthy at times, is serviceable. And hits all the proper Star Wars keys. Watch and learn, Disney, watch and learn.

    Could use some more C&C. Maybe if you hurt the Sith enough when searching for the Star Maps, you lose the war even if you take over the Star Forge? And conversely, if you hurt the Republic enough, you lose even if you destroy the Star Forge? Would be nice to have stuff like wrecking/preserving the Sith Academy and who gets to buy kolto from Manaan (if anyone) affect the final outcome. Hell, the Wookiee slavery could matter too, if Czerka sold them to the Sith as the gifted mechanics they are - the Star Forge might churn out ships like crazy, but they'd need maintenance.

    I have extreme doubts as to the ability of Aspyr's writers to even conceive something like that, though, let alone implement it.
     
    • Brofist x 3
    • Agree x 3
    • incline x 1
    • decline x 1
    • Prestigious x 1
    • Interesting x 1
    ^ Top  
  25. Harthwain Magister

    Harthwain
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2019
    Messages:
    2,383
    I could be mistaken, but I recall Persuade working in some cases when the Force Persuade would not.
     
    • Yes Yes x 2
    ^ Top  

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.