Vapourware Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Remake from Saber Interactive

[Storyfag]

Pretty easy. Sitting there, on Coruscant, and telling the Jedi fucking Council how he loves democracy... his powers of camouflage alone had to be insane.

The governor of California is doing that right now and he has zero sith powers or lightsabers.

Probably.

Yeah, but he doesn't have to contend with thousands of beings literally capable of mind-reading.

 

[Zibniyat]

For Kreia's vision to work she has to remove the Force's ability to influence certain outcomes.

She obviously can't do that. Nobody can, except each and every one sentient being for themselves.

Until she does it remains the moral arbiter in Star Wars.

For a child, perhaps. It is a banal, shallow and upon more serious inspection incoherent arbiter, and most certainly not moral one.

I agree with Kreia too, but within the framework of Star Wars as it usually is: Jedi good. Sith bad.

It is impossible to agree with her and think the way you do.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

She obviously can't do that. Nobody can, except each and every one sentient being for themselves.

She attempts this during the course of KotOR II. If she couldn't do it, she hoped you would. What happened to the Exile was one in a million and would not solve the problem of subsequent generations. It required a permanent solution.

For a child, perhaps. It is a banal, shallow and upon more serious inspection incoherent arbiter, and most certainly not moral one.

Is it? Or could Kreia be wrong on all counts? If the Force ceased to be an influencing factor how do you know things would get better and not worse? No Jedi, no Sith. All actors unrestrained by any morals. Number of wars might go up, length of them could increase and frequency of occurrence could go through the roof. No way of knowing for certain. This is what she claims to value in its removal but I think that's only the surface of it. The reality of it is this: There are very few Jedi who ever fall and even fewer galaxy spanning wars. Over the course of ~25,000 years you can count them on two or three hands.

It is impossible to agree with her and think the way you do.

I think what Kreia is reeling against is that some beings in the galaxy are selected for a higher purpose and have no choice in the matter, overriding their soaring desires and crippling their ability to overcome their own struggles through merit. This is the basis on which I agree with her. She is correct in this regard for certain and therefore the Force should be removed.

 

[Lacrymas]

An attempt was made by Darth Plagueis to gain power over life and death somehow, but the Force resisted. It created Anakin as a reaction to their meddling. That's according to the old canon.

Yeah, in the old canon, but the new comics heavily imply Palpatine was the one who created Anakin -

The original script of the Episode III also outright states this -

I have waited all these years for you to fulfil your destiny. I arranged for your conception. I used the power of the Force to will the Midichlorians to start cell divisions that created you.”

Anakin tells Palpatine that he doesn’t believe him, much like Luke did to Vader in Empire Strikes Back. Palpatine continues - “Ahhh, but you know it’s true. When you clear your mind, you will sense the truth. You could almost think of me as your father”

“That’s impossible!” Anakin retorts.

“Nevertheless, you must decide…” Says Palpatine.

Even if you don't interpret that scene from the comic as Palpatine impregnating Anakin's mother, it's still obvious he did something to the unborn child. Anakin isn't the chosen one, he's the spawn of the devil.

 

[Storyfag]

Anakin isn't the chosen one, he's the spawn of the devil.

One does not preclude the other. "A prophecy which misunderstood might have been, hmm."

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

snip

I'm going off the wiki which contradicts this even in the new canon section. Both articles state the Force or more specifically the midichlorians conceived him. Moreover, Palpatine is a liar.

If it didn't make it in the film it's not canon, Lucas clearly changed his mind somewhere along the line in regard to the script. At the end of the day though, I don't care about anything in the new canon. It's not my wheelhouse.

 

[Fenix]

Jedi who fell to the Dark Side because they rejected this reality. Good is good. Evil is Evil. All else is cope.

As I told above earlier - whole third-fourth-n side additional to dohotomy good-evil or ligth-dark or invent-your-name appeared only beacuse people en masse stop to understand what is good or what is evil. It's times of moral relativism, when you need to some "new" and "cool" force/side/view whatever, because you don't understand what old one mean.
Coinscedentally, that mean that explaining them that don't bring any fruits, as they not able to understand that in principle.
So don't broke the spears...

 

[Zibniyat]

For a child, perhaps. It is a banal, shallow and upon more serious inspection incoherent arbiter, and most certainly not moral one.

Is it? Or could Kreia be wrong on all counts? If the Force ceased to be an influencing factor how do you know things would get better and not worse? No Jedi, no Sith. All actors unrestrained by any morals. Number of wars might go up, length of them could increase and frequency of occurrence could go through the roof. No way of knowing for certain.

You conflate morality with the Force. But within the (Star Wars) universe you still have countless civilisations where the Force plays minor role, or none at all. It is the work of the Force, Jedi and the Sith to have constructed a religion and moral foundation out of the Force, as if objective morality is in any way dependent on there being a supernatural magic-like people roaming around. It is not. In fact, originally the Force was something mythical, and force users were considered extinct, extremely rare or a combination of myth and reality. The Force is not moral and is not needed for morality.

Perhaps the scope, viciousness and length of wars would decrease. It is the Force which has fueled the biggest atrocities, with or without using the technology. It is the unnatural abilities of the Sith which enabled them to wipe out whole planets with ease.

This is what she claims to value in its removal but I think that's only the surface of it. The reality of it is this: There are very few Jedi who ever fall and even fewer galaxy spanning wars. Over the course of ~25,000 years you can count them on two or three hands.

Perhaps, but a single Sith is capable of undoing the supposed millennia of peace, progress, wealth and good. To be honest, this sort of points out to Jedi being so pathetic, which they are. But quantity here matters little when in the grand scheme of things, through the workings of the Force, it all has to be balanced. Suffering is more extreme than its absence, when it comes to how it's experienced, so it takes just s few decades to cause such misery that rivals or surpasses these millennia of peace.

It is impossible to agree with her and think the way you do.

I think what Kreia is reeling against is that some beings in the galaxy are selected for a higher purpose and have no choice in the matter, overriding their soaring desires and crippling their ability to overcome their own struggles through merit. This is the basis on which I agree with her. She is correct in this regard for certain and therefore the Force should be removed.

Her greatest contribution is in pointing out how the Force seeks to balance things. Jedi, in their blind belief in the duality of the Force, thought that this balance is precisely only the good things, or what we could say are good things (there are good things which cannot be expressed without there being evil in the first place, and all good things must come to pass). But they are mistaken, and the Force in its own will has a different position, one where the "dark side" also has to express itself. And in equal measure.

So in the end it ends up like a zero-sum game. Which, actually, is bad. For if the sum of all is one big nothing, then it is bad, for nothingness isn't of value or goodness, but is instead something to be avoided. The entire effort and time of Jedi and Sith everywhere, at a galactic scale, is one big nothing.

 

[Harthwain]

I agree with Kreia too, but within the framework of Star Wars as it usually is: Jedi good. Sith bad.

That premise is the result of the original Star Wars trilogy: the good Jedi (Luke Skywalker) fighting the bad Sith (Darth Vader). Good versus Evil. This manichaeism worked, because what George Lucas came up with was essentially a fable. But it doesn't mean you can't push the boundaries. By the way, the myth of Palpatine being the strongest Sith also exists purely because of the original trilogy. Otherwise it would be fine for him to be just the strongest Sith at that point in time.

 

[Lacrymas]

The more spicy elements of Star Wars indeed come from the prequels. Too bad they are unwatchable.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

You conflate morality with the Force. But within the (Star Wars) universe you still have countless civilisations where the Force plays minor role, or none at all. It is the work of the Force, Jedi and the Sith to have constructed a religion and moral foundation out of the Force, as if objective morality is in any way dependent on there being a supernatural magic-like people roaming around. It is not. In fact, originally the Force was something mythical, and force users were considered extinct, extremely rare or a combination of myth and reality. The Force is not moral and is not needed for morality.

Perhaps the scope, viciousness and length of wars would decrease. It is the Force which has fueled the biggest atrocities, with or without using the technology. It is the unnatural abilities of the Sith which enabled them to wipe out whole planets with ease.

I'm using "morality" as a shorthand. The Force is involved in every civilization whether they are capable of perceiving it or not. The fact is this: An energy field created by all living things selects avatars seemingly at random, but also during times of dire need to enforce its will. What is its will? That life expands but also that measured entropic forces continue to exist in the world to maintain a balance. The Sith are antithetical to this balance because they are capable of becoming like Nihilus or worse given enough time. The Force does not allow them to exist in power for long periods through several defense mechanisms. This is the morality of Star Wars and as long as the Force exists it is enforced.

Perhaps, but a single Sith is capable of undoing the supposed millennia of peace, progress, wealth and good.

No, they're not. Even their strongest was removed after being in power for only 40 years or so and the galaxy at that point went back to business as usual. His damage was significant, but it didn't undo the development of ~25,000 years of peace. But you have touched on the reason that they are not allowed to endure long. You can destroy a planet at the push of a button, you cannot heal one in the same way. Balance in the Force has nothing to do with the Sith showing up according to GL. They represent imbalance. Evil continues to exist with or without them. Entropic forces exist without them. The Jedi are not about removing all influence of the Dark Side, such a thing isn't possible, just the Sith.

What I get from all these common copes is that certain fans are desperate to equate Jedi and Sith as two sides of the same coin or as moral equivalents of each other due to the latter's role in entropy. They throw the baby out with the bathwater and say that despite there being thousands of years of peace and relative prosperity in the galaxy the Jedi are bad because they very, very rarely become corrupt and embrace the Sith ideology, putting the galaxy in a rough place for a short time on very rare occasion. They fail to account for the Jedi being a deterrent to all but the strongest foes.

Jedi, in their blind belief in the duality of the Force, thought that this balance is precisely only the good things...

No, they didn't. They thought balance was balance. Light and dark exist, should exist, but the dark is not to rule your actions. They're correct.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

That premise is the result of the original Star Wars trilogy: the good Jedi (Luke Skywalker) fighting the bad Sith (Darth Vader). Good versus Evil. This manichaeism worked, because what George Lucas came up with was essentially a fable. But it doesn't mean you can't push the boundaries.

I don't disagree, though I will say that deconstructions like KotOR II work so well because they abide by the rules that Lucas established, circumventing them without contradicting them. Other works should always follow suit.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

Don't believe every dogma the Jedi and Sith speak about the Force. Don't believe that 'The Phantom Menace' really defined the Force as biological and hereditary only by an elite caste. George Lucas puts words into characters mouths, representing their relative cultural views of the time, but doesn't reveal what he actually thinks about the Force. I have my own view. I think the telekinetic and other paranormal abilities are nothing to do with the Force, they are simply products of symbiosis with the Midichlorians, but that symbiosis may be an indicator of something underlying. Is it M-counts that determine Force ability, or Force ability that attracts high M-counts? The Jedi mindset of the time, interest in things like Midichlorians, is meant to be a sign of their times, a comfortable institution embedded in the Republic that engages in scholasticism.

 

[Zarniwoop]

This chlorine bullshit didn't even exist until it was retconned into episode 1. Along with Jar Jar Binks and other retarded ideas.

 

[Zibniyat]

despite there being thousands of years of peace and relative prosperity in the galaxy the Jedi are bad because they very, very rarely become corrupt and embrace the Sith ideology, putting the galaxy in a rough place for a short time on very rare occasion.

Yes.

But we will have to agree to disagree, as I'm losing interest in continuing this discussion or repeating myself. I just want you, at least, to notice how your argument how "25000 years of peace > 40 years of destruction" is a subjective one, not objective. For me, the disappearance of one Miraluka world along with the billions of people is a thing which in its magnitude is worse than the thousands of years of galactic peace. These are hard to prove stances, and I'm not going to argue further, I just hope you yourself is capable of seeing that you also rely on unproven, subjective views of the matter.

With that we can conclude this discussion. Until next time then.

 

[T.Ashpool]

they will remove all the sexiness from bastila and give her a non passing manface you know it's going to happen

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

Yes.

But we will have to agree to disagree, as I'm losing interest in continuing this discussion or repeating myself. I just want you, at least, to notice how your argument how "25000 years of peace > 40 years of destruction" is a subjective one, not objective. For me, the disappearance of one Miraluka world along with the billions of people is a thing which in its magnitude is worse than the thousands of years of galactic peace. These are hard to prove stances, and I'm not going to argue further, I just hope you yourself is capable of seeing that you also rely on unproven, subjective views of the matter.

With that we can conclude this discussion. Until next time then.

Yes, that is fine. I'll just say that I did already acknowledge that there is no way of knowing how the scales would balance on cost of life between the two options a few posts prior.

Very well, good talk.

 

[Drop Duck]

This chlorine bullshit didn't even exist until it was retconned into episode 1. Along with Jar Jar Binks and other retarded ideas.

This is a common misconception among nerds who don't really know anything but want to complain anyway. George Lucas always had the idea of the force that he made more explicit in TPM. Stormtroopers were also always clones and you can read articles from the OT period and long before the prequels came out stating this to be the case. It just never became relevant in the original trilogy and was never brought up.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Stormtroopers were also always clones and you can read articles from the OT period and long before the prequels came out stating this to be the case

Citation needed.

 

[Stokowski]

 

[Rusty Eyes]

Also, it's confirmed (heavily implied?) in the comics that Palpatine used the Force to impregnate Anakin's mother, which is a unique event I think.

An attempt was made by Darth Plagueis to gain power over life and death somehow, but the Force resisted. It created Anakin as a reaction to their meddling. That's according to the old canon.

What he's talking about is a Dark Force vision had by Vader himself, so the truthfulness of such a thing is debatable. Also, please stop bringing Disney headcanon in here - that very same comic series later has Vader on Exogol - just so retards who think that "muh Filoni" is going to retcon the Sequel Trilogy don't get overly enthusiastic.

 

[Storyfag]

So, this thread made me replay KotOR. Just finished.

Holds up pretty well, even despite the horribad console interface. Last good BW singleplayer game. Love the implementation of skills such as repair and computer use. Even demolitions is useful enough, though its scope is vastly limited. Too bad lightsabers and Force persuasion make respectively security and persuasion skills useless. But their later games simply do not maintain such systems any more. Writing, while cringeworthy at times, is serviceable. And hits all the proper Star Wars keys. Watch and learn, Disney, watch and learn.

Could use some more C&C. Maybe if you hurt the Sith enough when searching for the Star Maps, you lose the war even if you take over the Star Forge? And conversely, if you hurt the Republic enough, you lose even if you destroy the Star Forge? Would be nice to have stuff like wrecking/preserving the Sith Academy and who gets to buy kolto from Manaan (if anyone) affect the final outcome. Hell, the Wookiee slavery could matter too, if Czerka sold them to the Sith as the gifted mechanics they are - the Star Forge might churn out ships like crazy, but they'd need maintenance.

I have extreme doubts as to the ability of Aspyr's writers to even conceive something like that, though, let alone implement it.

 

[Harthwain]

Too bad lightsabers and Force persuasion make respectively security and persuasion skills useless.

I could be mistaken, but I recall Persuade working in some cases when the Force Persuade would not.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

I could be mistaken, but I recall Persuade working in some cases when the Force Persuade would not.

Force Persuade is not that useful in K1. I used to always take it but in my latest playthrough, I was roleplaying a Jedi who was loathe to use mind control and I found that if your persuade skill is high enough you can talk your way past anything anyway. Usually the dialogue tied to regular persuade is more varied and satisfying as well, not to mention the actual options for Force Persuade are few and far between. The two points to max it are better spent on other powers since the skill Persuade can only be invested in by the main character. There's never a playthrough where you wouldn't opt to take it. About the only real stand out thing that I can remember Force Persuade uniquely tying to is making Zaalbar kill Mission while on the dark side.

 

[Orud]

The more spicy elements of Star Wars indeed come from the prequels. Too bad they are unwatchable.

No, you can't say that anymore. Not when the trash Disney sequel trilogy exists. The prequel trilogy is merely bad, while the sequels are such incoherent gibberish that they sunk the industry standards.

Actors were lining up to appear in Star Wars, even if it was a cameo. By the time 'The Rise of Skywalker' came out, no one gave a fuck anymore (until The Mandalorian).