Stardock's new game "Elemental: War of Magic"

[Mortmal]

h'es hopeless... one thing is sure you can make a galciv 2 vs mOO2 thread, but an elemental vs master of magic would be impossible, master of magic is so much better.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

A word from developer : http://forums.elementalgame.com/394104

May i draw your attention to this passage specifically :

To those reviewing the game: I would urge you to review the game prior to v1.1. I say this because v1.05 (the release day version) is the version of the game that was originally released and if that version of the game is considered flawed then my view is that Stardock should suffer the consequences for that.

The guy STILL refuses to admit that he shipped a flawed product. There is no cure for that. Not to mention that he retroactively claims that 1.05 is the version that was released. Seriously now...

He's referring to 1.05 being the technical release day game (with the day 0 patch). I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on that, and review the game on those merits.

It's still fucked. There's possibly a good game in there somewhere, but it's so incredibly flawed right now that it's hard to see.

 

[BethesdaLove]

Frogboy wrote:
Brad's life philosophy, for what it's worth
Posted May 14, 2008 22:14:05

About once a month someone, somewhere, (signifies unimportant) will comment on something I've written saying how "A CEO shouldn't act so unprofessionally in public". Over the years, I've gotten that message hundreds of times (i am sick of this faggots)along with predictions of demise for my company due to my "public" behavior. (haha you were wrong idiots)

Obviously, the company's continued survival tends to imply (what a subtle expression to tell "haha you were wrong idiots")that the fact that I look at customer / developer relationships as a partnership of equals rather than one of master / slave (i hope they wont find out that there are other game companies and i am selling my shit as competition to them) as some "customers" online seem to think is not too damaging.

And even if it were damaging, I would still do what I do no matter what. (except when elemental flops, rpg flops, pirates wont remove whole inventories! and i am broke than its of into fps land!) That is my primary motivation for having a company: To do what I want. ( stfu bitch, I AM THE CEO OF A 20+ MIO COMPANY!)

My personal and professional objectives have always been the same: I want to do what I want to do.

That is my top priority. Freedom. (ARRRR!)

Freedom has consequences. I am certain, beyond a doubt, that my public postings on various topics over the years has alienated some percentage of users (small percentage i dont give a shit about) who have encountered what I written to the point that they have decided to not purchase products and services from my company. I'm okay with it. It's a price I'm willing to pay to be able to do what I want. (only if its those 4 hippie dudes who were retarded enough to read what i write for my endless need for admiration)

Now, users on our sites who read my posts know how I "treat" people. It's not that I treat people badly.(lying is good) I simply don't subscribe to the belief that because someone buys a product that they get a license to behave terribly. (those dumbfucks insulted me =( ) I particularly have little patience for people whose idea of "free speech" is to flame some person, product, or company (why am i posting here? ah right, its a bot) and then be taken aback when that person or representative of that product or company defends themselves.

Stardock isn't a public company. It's not investor run. It doesn't even have investors. It's my company. (HELL YEAH!) It's a company with around 50 people these days that I can proudly say has virtually no voluntary turn over. How many other software or game companies of that size can make that claim? (I ROCK!) And the reason for that is that my public attitude is my private attitude too ( I I I AM THE GREATEST! ) -- we're going to do what we want to do. Not just me but the people there too. (my psychologist said, i gotta get more humble)

Sure, there's a cost to doing what you want to do. I have gotten plenty of ribbing that we're making a TURN-BASED fantasy strategy game instead of making it an RTS. (can I get some sympathy?) But I want to make a turn-based fantasy strategy game. It won't sell as well as an RTS (like demigod hahahhaha) would but so what? What good is more money if you can't do what you want to do?

I'm 36. (but I look like 23) I've got a beautiful wife. (russian brides, best service ever) 3 wonderful children.(they are beautiful too) Plus I've got the toys. The Porsche 911 Turbo, the boat, the lake cottage, the big house, etc. And I get to work every day with people who I really like. Not just professionally but on a personal level. So I tend to think I'm probably doing something right. But more to the point, I'm way past the point where I have to do anything I don't want to do. So I'm not inclined to put up with crap. ( a whole paragraph about me, awesome!)

Every day at Stardock is FUN. Even during crunch-time it's FUN. And why is it fun? Because every day we do what we want to do. (FUN FUNF UFN, riding the elevator - FUN, chores FUN , crunch time FUN, I AM PROBABLY THE MOST FUN PERSON ON THE WHOLE FUCKING PLANET!!11 FUN NONSTOP, dont do drugs kids)

And part of doing what you want to do is being able to show some obnoxious customer the door or making clear that we don't want or need jerks using our stuff. (pr said, jerks is ok)

But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether I'm justified or not because I'm going to do what I want to do. And so far, it's worked out pretty well for both me, my family, my coworkers, and our customers.(FUCK YOU NIGGERS!)

 

[Achilles]

I wonder what's Brad's nickname on the Codex.

 

[kanenas]

I wonder what's Brad's nickname on the Codex.

he used frogboy on this thread 1 year ago
but i'm guessing he could have a couple of incognito alts
like all great codexian programers do

 

[dragonfk]

There's http://www.outofeight.info/ review of Elemental. For those that are too lazy
to check the review here's a summary:

The Good: Tedium-free and manageable city development, robust character customization, world-altering and tactical spells, in-game unit design, extensive content editors, can recruit (or fight) neutral adventurers, several research branches for different strategies with semi-random choices, clear diplomatic negotiations including treaties and arranged marriage
The Not So Good: Steep learning curve with insignificant tutorials, linear campaign with poor direction, tactical battles encourage waiting in defensive terrain, indistinctive spells, lacks fully randomized maps, some bland research options, limited quest variety, occasional bugs, iffy AI, no multiplayer yet
What say you? Part turn-based strategy, part city management, part role-playing game, partly finished, occasionally fun: 5/8

 

[Castanova]

It's kinda tough to constantly keep up with this thread. Can someone just create a new thread when this game has been patched/improved to a point where it's worth the money and time?

THANKS

 

[Mortmal]

Well.. right now on hard difficulty let me tell you how it works...
The IA has its intelligence setting to best + more ressources and cheat, as soon i encounter it it declares me war, off course its military is vastly superior.
So i entrench and build units, nothing happens hes not coming. I move my army wih my sovereing, my cities barely defended and move to his capital and take it. I see he 's building an army next to me , a vastly superior army , but hes not trying to take back his town nor attacking my undefended ones. Needless to say i stomped this first opponent.
I have set the game with 8 opponents, large map, no other faction is coming to attack me at all, i launch the quest of mastery, still no reaction, unlike master of magic where everyone was declaring war to you.

Even if they were , then what ?I look at my stats after an hundred turn i am so high in military strengh they cant do anything, all i have to do is resarch the heavier armor possible put my soldiers on wargs and voila best army for everything, techs are coming very fast, way too fast, way too easily.
Since theres no special resistances.Theres no reason to build anything else, theres no anti cavalry , no flying units, no naval units bare transports.

Spells? they are mostly useless , get the summon elementals , get a nuke, get an area of effect nuke, you are good to go ,why researching an ice nuke when you have a fire nulk ? Lower raise terrain? why bother ? harm another city production? buffs ? why bother my allmighty warg warriors will stomp it anyway.

City building ? you put stuff on tiles, the more the better, dont have to choose anything, no idea what are the summed up bonus, just pile stuff and its good.

Diplomacy ? what diplomacy, even if you are devastating an IA, he dont want to sign a non agression pact.

Now that my crash problems are fixed mostly , altough the end game is incredibly slow, i see how shallow the game is.
.The game is so bad, the IA sometimes plain hilarious, sovereign suiciding agaisnt impossible odds, and when a sovereign die in enmey territory his kingdom collapse completely.Bugs, crashes,slow down, it has it all.

The day its better i am sure making another post, i swear it! if i am still alive off course
.I am prety sure they are not reading this board for feedback and even if i post that on theirs , it will be censored quickly, if he think 1.05 is worth reviewing i dont get much hope left.

 

[Raghar]

Why so much bitching?

While he don't understand statistic, it's not that bad. I personally consider games where someone declare war only because as somewhat low grade. Look at Armagedon empires. They didn't cheat, thus someone who wasn't that active, or looked like too tough nut to crack, could relax for first few turns. (Until assassins found him.)

Problems with E. are:
It looks like attack vs defense are resolved. roll att 0-att, roll def 0-def if att > def use att as damage. Which is silly.

Too little money. While it might be correct for showing a struggling civilization, the monetary gain for winning battle against spiders is too large.

Research tree is somehow incomplete.

 

[Trash]

It has better graphics than MoM, nice atmosphere and the customisation options are nice. That's about the best thing that can be said of this game at this moment.

It does have however heaps of potential. I do remember just what a buggy pos MoM was when it came out, and even with the latest fan patches that classic still has lots of little niggles left. I do hope Stardock will keep patching this thing. If they won't it's a wasted opportunity, if they will it could become a classic.

We'll see.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

I will say this, I got the limited edition... and it's nice. I just got the shit in the mail yesterday. The map is nice, a pewter dragon figurine, yadda yadda yadda... It is really nice quality though. If only the game was of comparable quality.

 

[jiduthie]

no it won't...

In the last 72 hours I've had my mind come for and against writing an actual review for this game but here are my highlights for why it should've been pushed back for a 2011 release, and moreover, why patching won't fix it. The problems are too numerous for them to justify fixing without asking for another payday in an expansion pack.

1. Technology is meaningless. The tech tree is small and it will be all too soon when someone figures out the best way to tech. Alot of the techs aren't obvious in what they do, or aren't generally effective enough for the cost, and opportunity cost.

2. The customization is meaningless. This goes for Civ, Leader, and Troops. For Civ and leader the bonuses all pretty much amount to the same thing, like GalCiv, it's completely uninteresting. For Troop design, its even more pointless. You get attack, defense, hitpoints, and combat speed. No special abilities. Thus teching up and redesigning your units simply means making sure that your current unit designs have the best equipment. No meaningful choices. You want flying units, units that strike first, units that deal a special type of damage, Units that incapacitate enemies? No, no, no, no. Damage isn't even separated from to-hit. The fact that they thought a tactical battle system could be fitted onto this kind of unit design must be indicative of the fact that they knew this game was pointless at release date.

3. City management is meaningless. There are no special buildings to build in cities that aren't wonders(i.e. one per match) and moreover the basic improvements(one of each, in each town) that you can build are all + 1. The rest are all a + percentage, which means that cities are completely indistinguishable from one another unless they have a special map resource which are few and far between. If your city doesn't have one of those resources and it then produces 1(because of the basic improvements) of each resource then what the fuck is a +25 percent improvment exactly going to do for you? Most of your cities will be without resources on a large map unless you leave vast swaths of your empire uncivilized.

4. Heroes are meaningless. In order for your heroes to get att/def levels comparable to your other units you have to spend orders of magnitude more gold in order to outfit them. They are absolutely worthless unless fitted with decent gear, each piece of which could be used instead to build a unit with much better stats. They also seem to hit an exp plateau around level five, which further compounds the problem. Heroes are only useful if you can expend essence on them to allow them to cast spells. But gaining more essence is generally difficult( the level 5 xp plateau hurts here too) and thus heroes aren't really worth it except for larping.

There's also the bugs, which are all over the place(including odd behavior in saved games, which is really distressing), and the fact that there has been no acknowledgment from stardock as of yet that this game is, in fact, in deep doo doo.

edit: 5. The "rpg" aspects of the game are equally ridiculous. Run over a "quest" tile and you get shit. Sometimes you might have to fight shit. Simple shit, on the same simple and boring tactical maps that you fight everything on. Sometimes you have to go to another tile to fight simple shit on the simple and boring tactical maps that you fight everything on. You're reward is always resources or items that you could have otherwise bought(at ridiculous prices, I'll grant you) in your item shop given the right tech levels.

 

[Mortmal]

i completely agree with jiduthies, see i had forgot to mention the usesless champion, theres so many problems with th is game. And still there's someone asking whay so much bitching ?
When ill get games as good as what i was playig in the 90's ill stop bitching.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Who said stop bitching? Anyway, pretty on point. The thing is I don't think any of those things are necessarily unfixable, and I think it would be suicide for Stardock to try and bundle those fixes in with an expansion pack (unless it was like a 5 buck pack). But yeah, right now the game isn't worth playing.

 

[jiduthie]

I disagree, FSM.

The reason being is that changing all of that would be tantamount to admitting that they released a shitty game. My instinct tells me that it's not about to happen.

The problem is that its a workable system without any of the thoughtfulness that makes a game a game.

GalCiv2 released some pretty serious patches,though they didn't go near to the heart of correcting what was actually wrong with the game. I want to be hopeful. I wanted to be hopeful before the game was released. I am disappoint. I don't see why I should be hopeful anymore.

Edit: This game will be fun after many mods and patches and expansion packs. Its all there for the taking if modders get interested. I'm certain, not merely hopeful, of that. But this game won't be fixed by Stardock without asking more money from us first.

 

[Trash]

Unit design misses everything which should make unit design fun (abilities, traits). Heroes are indeed severely underpowered. Cities lack anything meaningfull or distinctive. Maps are boring with a distinct lack of interesting landmarks or other important structures to fight over. AI is nonexistant or at least extremely crippled. Quests are so simple that they might as well not have bothered.

And where the hell is item crafting? Or am I missing something? One of the coolest things to do with heroes in MoM is to kit them out with ridiculously powerfull artefacts and send them out to kill shit.

Still, I do keep hopefull because there is nothing here that could not be fixed in patches. What lessens that hope considerably is Stardocks track record in spreadsheet emulators and the fact that they pushed the game out of the door like this. I for one am uninstalling and will try again in 6 months or so.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Evidently the word on the street is they're planning on an expansion for February. Fuck those assholes.

Time to view it like a CA game: Modders will fix it.

 

[Lightknight]

And still there's someone asking whay so much bitching ?

I dont see how that is so surprising. Most of the Stardock fans are very likely to also be GalCiv2 fans, which is exactly this kind of game design (but patched up), so, to THEM, its very normal to play such a crappy game, they're USED to it already from previous experiences, they are on Stardock cut heroin.

 

[Ruprekt]

We should channel this rage into an internet Shadow Magic game or sumfin.

 

[yaster]

Evidently the word on the street is they're planning on an expansion for February. Fuck those assholes.

Time to view it like a CA game: Modders will fix it.

Isn't this expansion pack supposed to be free?

 

[Mortmal]

We should channel this rage into an internet Shadow Magic game or sumfin.

absolutely, i waited for ths game since the beggining, i was really expecting a new master of magic, it wouldnt have been that hard int his day and age to make as good or better no ? well no, been too naive.
So i am looking for alternatives as well, we have a master of magic patched by fan, or age of wonder. We are probably not the only one, i ve seen a thread on stardock forum announcing that age of wonder will be on steam.

 

[Raghar]

i completely agree with jiduthies, see i had forgot to mention the usesless champion, theres so many problems with th is game. And still there's someone asking whay so much bitching ?

Everyone knew how GalCiv looked like, so there was no reason to have too large expectations. Surprisingly city graphics isn't bland, in fact it's quite decent. Tech tree interface is nicely looking, sadly techs are more like slot machine. It would be much less problem when multiple techs could be researched in single turn, or when tech cost wouldn't rise.

Unit design misses everything which should make unit design fun (abilities, traits). Heroes are indeed severely underpowered.

This would be much less problem when:
1. they would be able to cast magic without essence transfer, or when they would be able to receive essence without lowering sovereign's essence.
2. When the combat system would be different. Imagine a standard hero in legendary magic armor... def 21 or more. Now group of archers has attack of 50+ because they simply summed theirs attack together. Add into it an unlimited distance, and they would rape him.

 

[Raghar]

Re: no it won't...

3. City management is meaningless. There are no special buildings to build in cities that aren't wonders(i.e. one per match) and moreover the basic improvements(one of each, in each town) that you can build are all + 1. The rest are all a + percentage, which means that cities are completely indistinguishable from one another unless they have a special map resource which are few and far between.

Do you have these 50 materials for more advanced buildings? If not then you must choose what to build in each city, not to mention they will not growth without food, and you'd need space for these buildings. When there would be more different buildings, you'd see consequences.

If your city doesn't have one of those resources and it then produces 1(because of the basic improvements) of each resource then what the fuck is a +25 percent improvment exactly going to do for you?

Help produce 1.25 of resource. Basically think about it as about 1 = 1000. 1000 + 250 = 1250.

 

[Mortmal]

Everyone knew how GalCiv looked like, so there was no reason to have too large expectations. Surprisingly city graphics isn't bland, in fact it's quite decent. Tech tree interface is nicely looking, sadly techs are more like slot machine. It would be much less problem when multiple techs could be researched in single turn, or when tech cost wouldn't rise.

Gal civc was nowhere in that shape , i remmber IA doing something at least and doing it good, like mking treaties then backstabbbing you when you were at war with someone else, using stealth fletts etc..It was way more balanced and enjoyable, and thats why i preordered.