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Starfield Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Zariusz

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Old interview from last December with Will Shen, i wonder if Disco Elysium influenced general Toddfield quest design since he mentions it.

https://bethesda.net/en/article/2oO...esigner-on-starfield-at-bethesda-game-studios
1671157861512.png
 

ropetight

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If you've got any specifics you want to hear about fine, but if I give you a general overview its this: Bethesda games have become too simplistic, too action based and have lost their core influences from CRPG mechanics, they use list based inventories which suck (and frankly they don't even implement them properly hence the memory leaks Skyrim has STILL)
I'm not a game dev but I did take a few CS classes in college. Assuming you're not referring to some super fancy game-specific application I haven't heard about, there are numerous reasons why one would choose a list based inventory. Lists scale more smoothly whereas resizing a static data structure like an array incurs an expensive copy operation.

You're talking about data structure while RobotSquirrel was talking about UI presentation (list based).
Then why he's talking about memory leaks?
Even in the case of data structures, resizing of collections doesn't happen that much with inventories - you just reserve more memory for it, since it probably contains only "instance" data, and the general, more massive data like picture od 3d model are only referenced.
If you're intentionally sizing bigger array capacities then you'll probably wind up using more memory than lists anyway.
You do, but not by much.On big collections of elements you will probably use something like a Flyweight pattern, which reduces memory consumption for repeating elements.
Text processors don't store font glyph for every letter you type, they just reference it, as I said above.

If you use static array, you will not resize array for every new item in it. You will probably resize it for every fifty elements, since all you wrote for the instance of item in your inventory is its state and its quantity.

But for the big collections like items in open world game, Bethesda probably used some kind of Hashmap (Dictionary), since iterating over big list for accessing list entry becomes bigger concern than resizing array.
Which can be prone to memory leaks if objects are not cleaned of references to them before deleting.
It's not just a reference. There's quite a few properties we know Bethesda tracks per entity like uuid, position, name, stats, upgrades/buffs, weapon mods, ownership status, etc. So I think memory optimization does matter here. And intuitively, I'd use a list because when you think about how Bethesda games work, the player is often adding and dropping items to various collections. NPCs even interact that way. It's easier to keep those collections sorted with a list operation. And sometimes the player does add 200 potions and sell them all to the alchemist. Which means for an array pattern, each collection involved in that transaction (home chest, player inventory, shopkeeper) will need to have its inventory resized potentially multiple times.

I think their gamewide item management is far more sophisticated than a hashmap, more like an entire database.
Of course that memory organization is not trivial for such complex system, but you will still use references to common data combined with "instance" data and save memory that way, if possible.
If you have 100 potions of the same type, they probably just change field in object that holds amount of items, if you don't sell them all - in which case they probably move whole instance to another collection.
If I remember correctly, all the objects with same type and status (condition, mods, etc.) are grouped as one, so there is probably optimization with that also.

Bethesda save files are known to grow in size if you access more locations and interact with objects, which probably means they have default state of game objects that is loaded on the start and then overriden with whatever data you changed on that specific instance.

They are maybe using multliple indexes/keys for finding items as you suggested with database approach.
Maybe they have some tree-like structure based on locations and containers.
 

RobotSquirrel

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there are numerous reasons why one would choose a list based inventory. Lists scale more smoothly whereas resizing a static data structure like an array incurs an expensive copy operation.
You're talking about data structure while @RobotSquirrel was talking about UI presentation (list based).
I was mainly referring to it in a UI sense, the way you should do lists is segment them so that you're only loading in what is visible. Most developers don't bother, Worst offender is the Sims games, all of them just dump the entire catalogue in one big list despite it being super inefficient to load and display. I'm not saying lists as a data structure are inherently bad, but the way most developers implement it is. Why load in a list of 1000 items if only 100 can be displayed at any one time. Worst if you have a list that is reliant on render textures then you get StarCitizen and Cyberpunks problem where the UI doesn't immediately load in. UI should be snappy and ready to use you shouldn't have to fight it for control and it should hold up regardless of the use case otherwise you designed it wrong. I shouldve clarified more.
If it is, then Morrowind completely killed the TES series by gutting Daggerfall and reducing its scope to almost nothing. Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim have far, far more in common with each other than they do with Daggerfall.
Oh I agree with that. Morrowind was meant to be a lot more ambitious but Bethesda nearly went bankrupt, so it was streamlined because the team couldn't manage.
 

Robotigan

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Of course that memory organization is not trivial for such complex system, but you will still use references to common data combined with "instance" data and save memory that way, if possible.
If you have 100 potions of the same type, they probably just change field in object that holds amount of items, if you don't sell them all - in which case they probably move whole instance to another collection.
If I remember correctly, all the objects with same type and status (condition, mods, etc.) are grouped as one, so there is probably optimization with that also.
The entity/object hierarchy is pretty complex because the player can apply all sorts of unique properties. Each alchemy level corresponds to marginally stronger potions which means the stats can't be an inherited property. And then you get enchantments, weapon improvements, weapon naming, and FO4's crazy weapon mod system. Either all of these properties exist per entity or the game has to somehow figure out which entities have identical properties at runtime and group them together. Actually now that I think about it maybe you were on the right track earlier. Maybe they use a hash function on item creation to check if they should create a new entity or increment a counter. Since crafting menus are the most controlled environments in their games, they might be able to hide this more computationally complex check.
Bethesda save files are known to grow in size if you access more locations and interact with objects, which probably means they have default state of game objects that is loaded on the start and then overriden with whatever data you changed on that specific instance.
That's exactly what happens. In fact the save file is referenced in the exact same way as updates, mods, and the game itself. So like Skyrim.esm predefines the default state of the game and is loaded at the base of the stack, then Update.esm, then all your mods in whatever silly load order you have them configured in, then finally your save is loaded at the top of the stack.
I was mainly referring to it in a UI sense, the way you should do lists is segment them so that you're only loading in what is visible. Most developers don't bother, Worst offender is the Sims games, all of them just dump the entire catalogue in one big list despite it being super inefficient to load and display. I'm not saying lists as a data structure are inherently bad, but the way most developers implement it is. Why load in a list of 1000 items if only 100 can be displayed at any one time. Worst if you have a list that is reliant on render textures then you get StarCitizen and Cyberpunks problem where the UI doesn't immediately load in. UI should be snappy and ready to use you shouldn't have to fight it for control and it should hold up regardless of the use case otherwise you designed it wrong. I shouldve clarified more.
I'ma be real wit you. Most game devs probably don't think about UI optimization that much because it's presumed to be the least taxing aspect of their games. This isn't like webdev where project managers monitor page responsiveness and clickthrough rate like a hawk. I'd also imagine Bethesda can get away with bad patterns because they're not loading in image files, they show the game models themselves which should already be loaded in.
 
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Gargaune

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UI should be snappy and ready to use you shouldn't have to fight it for control and it should hold up regardless of the use case otherwise you designed it wrong.
Engineering aside, UI design is a lost art not just in videogames, but software in general. It all started with Apple lemmings swooning over their spring-loaded taskbar animations and the rot spread and spread...

'Member when Unreal-based games had menus with key accelerators? Stuff you could click or keybind or Alt+initial. Or how NWN2, for all its UI sins, let you move stuff around or even customise click-and-hold delays? Nowadays, you're lucky if you get non-hardcoded controls. Bethesda shipped Fallout 4 without letting your rebind E in menus, and even after people complained, they only patched half of 'em because they weren't set up to inherit correctly. CDPR's Cyberpunk has you equip stuff with the mouse, but you can only back out of a category via keyboard, the "Exit" button isn't actually a button. Nevermind customisation and modality, even basic PC GUI crap is ignored with abandon.

The last proper PC UI I've seen was 2016's Deus Ex 4. It's only issues were the hover menus in inventory and the confusing process of assembling mines, everything else was spot-on, credit to Nixxes for doing the PC port.

As for Starfield, you can be damn well sure there'll be two mods you'll want in your load order - StarUI (or whatever they end up calling it) and Immersive HUD.
 

Kiste

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Messages
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I do wonder what the writing will be like in this game.
Don't get your hopes up:
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxn4ChnSAHkji3g6bhixyVHdy9FxtgdTWa

Fallout 4's writing was so bad that it honestly baffles me.
It's sad that I can only hope its as bland as generic as Skyrim's writing.
Skyrim was probably even worse than FO4. Maybe not the main story, but most of everything else.

Someone even wrote a 5-part blog post about how incredibly shitty Skyrim's thieves guild quest line was:
https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14422
And he even noted that the thieves quest isn't even the worst Skyrim has to offer.
 
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I would have easily traded settlement management for land vehicles and flying ship around planets.

If they aren’t doing land vehicles then it’s most likely the same reason they don’t do them in their Fallout games. There’s some interview that got posted here (this site, I don’t think it was this thread) a few years ago where Todd Howard says the reason Fallout doesn’t have vehicles is because their engine can’t handle the player moving that fast through the game world. It would seem that problem is still a problem with their engine.
 

Tyrr

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I would have easily traded settlement management for land vehicles and flying ship around planets.

If they aren’t doing land vehicles then it’s most likely the same reason they don’t do them in their Fallout games. There’s some interview that got posted here (this site, I don’t think it was this thread) a few years ago where Todd Howard says the reason Fallout doesn’t have vehicles is because their engine can’t handle the player moving that fast through the game world. It would seem that problem is still a problem with their engine.
Wasn't it Fallout 76 where you could move faster by looking at the ground?
 
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I would have easily traded settlement management for land vehicles and flying ship around planets.

If they aren’t doing land vehicles then it’s most likely the same reason they don’t do them in their Fallout games. There’s some interview that got posted here (this site, I don’t think it was this thread) a few years ago where Todd Howard says the reason Fallout doesn’t have vehicles is because their engine can’t handle the player moving that fast through the game world. It would seem that problem is still a problem with their engine.
Wasn't it Fallout 76 where you could move faster by looking at the ground?

Yeah.

 

ropetight

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I would have easily traded settlement management for land vehicles and flying ship around planets.

If they aren’t doing land vehicles then it’s most likely the same reason they don’t do them in their Fallout games. There’s some interview that got posted here (this site, I don’t think it was this thread) a few years ago where Todd Howard says the reason Fallout doesn’t have vehicles is because their engine can’t handle the player moving that fast through the game world. It would seem that problem is still a problem with their engine.
Wasn't it Fallout 76 where you could move faster by looking at the ground?

Yeah.


Inverse Naruto for the win.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

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Strap Yourselves In
Why is this in RPG Discussion when it should be in Space Games alongside the much more interesting Spaceborne 2?

Btw, I bought SB2 and it's pretty neat. I wish the landings were seamless, but you can't have everything, I guess.
 

Cross

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Skyrim deciding to go all-out and remove the window dressing isn't such a bad thing
Go all-out with what? The combat and level design in Skyrim are horrible. You even get regenerating health from the start of the game, ensuring it's a braindead experience and undermining what little RPG elements the game has left (what is the point of building a character with high endurance or restoration spells if every player character heals by default).

With the removal of attributes, spellmaking and other features, there is actually less incentive for exploring and questing in Skyrim than there is in previous Elder Scrolls games. It's one of those games where it feels like nothing you do really matters.
 

Gargaune

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Why is this in RPG Discussion when it should be in Space Games alongside the much more interesting Spaceborne 2?
For the same reason Star Citizen is in the MMORPG section instead of the Hague.

It's one of those games where it feels like nothing you do really matters.
A poignant metaphor for our own inescapable mortality. Todd is such an artist, he paints with gameplay instead of "fampyrs."
 

Wilian

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Divinity: Original Sin
This is about recognizing patterns in the environment. Oblivion was very bad, Skyrim was worse, Fallout 4 was a crime against humanity and Fallout 76… they keep getting worse every single time. Is there any reason why this would be different? Consider that you’ve got the same manipulator salesman at the helm telling the same lies that he always does through his big fake smile.

Oh, but the mods!

Yes mods, so you start strapping 15 different components on to the game created by mentally ill people in their free time with no central direction. Nothing fits tonally, everything clashes, the game bloats and becomes (even more) unstable. If there was any soul in the piece of art, it’s stripped away now. Without any soul, a game is just a sedative. Ask your doctor for an Ativan prescription, you’ll get a similar experience to a modern Bethesda title.
Oblivion wasn't that bad.
Oblivion was the game that crushed my faith in AAA games. I was massive Morrowind fan and played it for years, I was at ripe age of 16 years old when Oblivion released so I was just at that demographic where it should've been life-altering experience. I wanted to like it. I really did. I convinced myself to play it, telling myself I enjoy it while it all felt so hollow. I managed to play for 2 weeks before abandoning the game for many years and every brief return to it has only proven how foolish I was to even try to take it in. At that age I couldn't exactly put it into words what made it so terrible, those articulations dawned on me much later but all in all, Oblivion remains the single most disappointing game I have ever played in my entire life.
 

AwesomeButton

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Some of this stuff I bought a few years ago so I didn't get as good a price for it as I could do now
You bought three displays but skimped on an Asus GPU for, what, Gigabyte? Nigger, I'ma slap you!
 

Robotigan

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Someone even wrote a 5-part blog post about how incredibly shitty Skyrim's thieves guild quest line was:
https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14422
And he even noted that the thieves quest isn't even the worst Skyrim has to offer.
This takedown deserves its own takedown. It's not so much that I think the questline is Goodfellas or anything, but several online critics have the most bizarre tunnel vision that makes them insufferable to read. It reminds me of all those youtubers who lost their minds over Kid in a Fridge somehow oblivious to the fact that the quest's premise is a very intentional joke. If a straight delivery throws you off, I don't know that you're qualified to evaluate writing quality.
Then the captain of the guard tells Mallus to take over, and Mallus tells me he’s going to start converting the distillery to make mead for Maven.

Wha??

Look, if the health inspector shuts down your McDonald’s, the police don’t come in and give the building to Burger King. Who owns this place? What’s happening here?
Because they're corrupt. The game is set in a medieval land ruled by a loose confederation of petty kingdoms. Casual corruption is to be expected. The author seems to struggle to think outside of contemporary societies and their robust legal frameworks. This ties in with his confusion about a legal business dealing generating intrigue. Like many preindustrial societies, Skyrim's population mostly adheres to a code of honor and tradition not legalism. That's the entire catalyst for the Civil War. The common folk wouldn't differentiate between an undisclosed business dealing and a forceful seizure. What the author is trying to spin as bad writing are actually examples of good worldbuilding.
Then at the end of the dungeon, I enter the final chamber and suddenly fall over. Karliah has hit me with a paralysis arrow which will never exist or be mentioned again in the gameworld, despite the fact that it would be the Most Useful Thing Ever.
I... paralysis exists in multiple forms. There are two ways to apply it to a bow (or any other weapon) and you can go around Karliah-ing people to your heart's content. There's funny youtube videos that feature players doing exactly that. It also exists as a spell. And it is used elsewhere. Just off the top of my head, Kematu paralyzes Saadia at the end of that Redguard quest.

I'm not gonna tediously analyze the entire piece because while I'm sure there's a worthwhile critique here and there, speaking so confidently and assuredly about a quest's flaws while your own review is littered with naive assumptions and egregious oversights pretty much says it all. I think I know his main contention anyway, he wants a game with a more developed, explicit narrative and setpieces that reinforce that narrative. Those aren't the kind of games Bethesda makes and players hate it when they try. It seems to really annoy him that they didn't animate the mead being transported from the distillery into the kegs or that Mercer Frey doesn't have custom, stealthy AI. I'm not saying those things wouldn't improve the experience, but they're marginal considerations for a game with such a large scope. The developers need to pick their battles, and here I think they chose correctly. You can't simulate an entire country in granular detail, some things will need to be implied and left to the player's imagination.

He doesn't seem to be very interested in the game systems outside of their story implementation which is how he missed the whole paralysis mechanic. It's not wrong to prefer more story-rich games over sandboxier ones--I find that I burn out on one if I don't alternate--but if you're going to analyze a game you should be more cognizant of what kind of game you're playing and what it's design goals are before criticizing what it does and doesn't do. I wouldn't knock Skyrim for lacking cinematic presentation for all its quests, but I will lament the absence of a robust intimidation/persuasion system because it feels like something the game ought to support (and previous titles in the franchise did support).
 

Robotigan

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I would have easily traded settlement management for land vehicles and flying ship around planets.

If they aren’t doing land vehicles then it’s most likely the same reason they don’t do them in their Fallout games. There’s some interview that got posted here (this site, I don’t think it was this thread) a few years ago where Todd Howard says the reason Fallout doesn’t have vehicles is because their engine can’t handle the player moving that fast through the game world. It would seem that problem is still a problem with their engine.
It's more accurate to say it's a design limitation. If you watch a speedrun of their games, the engine clearly can handle the player physically moving that fast. The problem is the cells don't stream in in time so everything looks glitchy. If they really wanted to add vehicles, it's easy to see all the ways they could reduce the data streaming load. Instead of tracking every NPC and item in the cell at all times, they could simply unload those resources when they're out of view. They could drastically reduce geometry without sacrificing visual fidelity if they didn't dot their landscapes with so many points of interest and modeled interiors. But that simulation detail has become part of their brand so they elect for heavier loads and constrain the player's speed to compensate.

Wasn't it Fallout 76 where you could move faster by looking at the ground?
This isn't surprising for a game where everything is tied to a fixed tickrate. If you uncap the frame/tickrate then you're not going to simulate stuff in more granular increments but increase the speed of the simulation. And looking at the ground means the game has to render less geometry so it can push frames faster. And if you wanna get spooky, that's how our own universe works. As you approach the speed of light, the 'simulation' speeds up from your frame of reference. You can tell the engine wasn't designed for online and BGS Austin struggled to implement the netcode. The server shouldn't just accept whatever the client tells thems. It should be able to evaluate whether the information it's receiving makes sense and overrule the client if it says the player is moving faster than they should.
 
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Joined
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204
This is about recognizing patterns in the environment. Oblivion was very bad, Skyrim was worse, Fallout 4 was a crime against humanity and Fallout 76… they keep getting worse every single time. Is there any reason why this would be different? Consider that you’ve got the same manipulator salesman at the helm telling the same lies that he always does through his big fake smile.

Oh, but the mods!

Yes mods, so you start strapping 15 different components on to the game created by mentally ill people in their free time with no central direction. Nothing fits tonally, everything clashes, the game bloats and becomes (even more) unstable. If there was any soul in the piece of art, it’s stripped away now. Without any soul, a game is just a sedative. Ask your doctor for an Ativan prescription, you’ll get a similar experience to a modern Bethesda title.
Oblivion wasn't that bad.
Oblivion was the game that crushed my faith in AAA games. I was massive Morrowind fan and played it for years, I was at ripe age of 16 years old when Oblivion released so I was just at that demographic where it should've been life-altering experience. I wanted to like it. I really did. I convinced myself to play it, telling myself I enjoy it while it all felt so hollow. I managed to play for 2 weeks before abandoning the game for many years and every brief return to it has only proven how foolish I was to even try to take it in. At that age I couldn't exactly put it into words what made it so terrible, those articulations dawned on me much later but all in all, Oblivion remains the single most disappointing game I have ever played in my entire life.
I had the same exact experience, I loved playing Morrowind. The dust storms in the northern desert areas with 5.1 surround was really immersive. And they released Oblivion, and they just destroyed everything. Removed skills and added level scaling. Pirated it once, played a few hours and never again. Skyrim I played to archmage then never again.
 

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