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Starfield Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Gargaune

Arcane
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,623
UI should be snappy and ready to use you shouldn't have to fight it for control and it should hold up regardless of the use case otherwise you designed it wrong.
Engineering aside, UI design is a lost art not just in videogames, but software in general. It all started with Apple lemmings swooning over their spring-loaded taskbar animations and the rot spread and spread...

'Member when Unreal-based games had menus with key accelerators? Stuff you could click or keybind or Alt+initial. Or how NWN2, for all its UI sins, let you move stuff around or even customise click-and-hold delays? Nowadays, you're lucky if you get non-hardcoded controls. Bethesda shipped Fallout 4 without letting your rebind E in menus, and even after people complained, they only patched half of 'em because they weren't set up to inherit correctly. CDPR's Cyberpunk has you equip stuff with the mouse, but you can only back out of a category via keyboard, the "Exit" button isn't actually a button. Nevermind customisation and modality, even basic PC GUI crap is ignored with abandon.

The last proper PC UI I've seen was 2016's Deus Ex 4. It's only issues were the hover menus in inventory and the confusing process of assembling mines, everything else was spot-on, credit to Nixxes for doing the PC port.

As for Starfield, you can be damn well sure there'll be two mods you'll want in your load order - StarUI (or whatever they end up calling it) and Immersive HUD.
 

Kiste

Augur
Joined
Feb 4, 2013
Messages
684
I do wonder what the writing will be like in this game.
Don't get your hopes up:
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxn4ChnSAHkji3g6bhixyVHdy9FxtgdTWa

Fallout 4's writing was so bad that it honestly baffles me.
It's sad that I can only hope its as bland as generic as Skyrim's writing.
Skyrim was probably even worse than FO4. Maybe not the main story, but most of everything else.

Someone even wrote a 5-part blog post about how incredibly shitty Skyrim's thieves guild quest line was:
https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14422
And he even noted that the thieves quest isn't even the worst Skyrim has to offer.
 

Drakortha

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
1,900
Location
Terra Australis
I do wonder what the writing will be like in this game.
Don't get your hopes up:
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxn4ChnSAHkji3g6bhixyVHdy9FxtgdTWa
It's definitely an eclectic cast of characters.

Let's take a look at the highest rated comment.

AacWoB6.png


Yes. Bethesda certainly do..
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
4,633
I would have easily traded settlement management for land vehicles and flying ship around planets.

If they aren’t doing land vehicles then it’s most likely the same reason they don’t do them in their Fallout games. There’s some interview that got posted here (this site, I don’t think it was this thread) a few years ago where Todd Howard says the reason Fallout doesn’t have vehicles is because their engine can’t handle the player moving that fast through the game world. It would seem that problem is still a problem with their engine.
 

Tyrr

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 25, 2020
Messages
2,651
I would have easily traded settlement management for land vehicles and flying ship around planets.

If they aren’t doing land vehicles then it’s most likely the same reason they don’t do them in their Fallout games. There’s some interview that got posted here (this site, I don’t think it was this thread) a few years ago where Todd Howard says the reason Fallout doesn’t have vehicles is because their engine can’t handle the player moving that fast through the game world. It would seem that problem is still a problem with their engine.
Wasn't it Fallout 76 where you could move faster by looking at the ground?
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
4,633
I would have easily traded settlement management for land vehicles and flying ship around planets.

If they aren’t doing land vehicles then it’s most likely the same reason they don’t do them in their Fallout games. There’s some interview that got posted here (this site, I don’t think it was this thread) a few years ago where Todd Howard says the reason Fallout doesn’t have vehicles is because their engine can’t handle the player moving that fast through the game world. It would seem that problem is still a problem with their engine.
Wasn't it Fallout 76 where you could move faster by looking at the ground?

Yeah.

 

ropetight

Savant
Joined
Dec 9, 2018
Messages
1,730
Location
Lower Wolffuckery
I would have easily traded settlement management for land vehicles and flying ship around planets.

If they aren’t doing land vehicles then it’s most likely the same reason they don’t do them in their Fallout games. There’s some interview that got posted here (this site, I don’t think it was this thread) a few years ago where Todd Howard says the reason Fallout doesn’t have vehicles is because their engine can’t handle the player moving that fast through the game world. It would seem that problem is still a problem with their engine.
Wasn't it Fallout 76 where you could move faster by looking at the ground?

Yeah.


Inverse Naruto for the win.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

Grand Dragon
Patron
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 6, 2020
Messages
17,656
Strap Yourselves In
Why is this in RPG Discussion when it should be in Space Games alongside the much more interesting Spaceborne 2?

Btw, I bought SB2 and it's pretty neat. I wish the landings were seamless, but you can't have everything, I guess.
 

Cross

Arcane
Joined
Oct 14, 2017
Messages
3,036
Skyrim deciding to go all-out and remove the window dressing isn't such a bad thing
Go all-out with what? The combat and level design in Skyrim are horrible. You even get regenerating health from the start of the game, ensuring it's a braindead experience and undermining what little RPG elements the game has left (what is the point of building a character with high endurance or restoration spells if every player character heals by default).

With the removal of attributes, spellmaking and other features, there is actually less incentive for exploring and questing in Skyrim than there is in previous Elder Scrolls games. It's one of those games where it feels like nothing you do really matters.
 

Gargaune

Arcane
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,623
Why is this in RPG Discussion when it should be in Space Games alongside the much more interesting Spaceborne 2?
For the same reason Star Citizen is in the MMORPG section instead of the Hague.

It's one of those games where it feels like nothing you do really matters.
A poignant metaphor for our own inescapable mortality. Todd is such an artist, he paints with gameplay instead of "fampyrs."
 

Wilian

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
2,846
Divinity: Original Sin
This is about recognizing patterns in the environment. Oblivion was very bad, Skyrim was worse, Fallout 4 was a crime against humanity and Fallout 76… they keep getting worse every single time. Is there any reason why this would be different? Consider that you’ve got the same manipulator salesman at the helm telling the same lies that he always does through his big fake smile.

Oh, but the mods!

Yes mods, so you start strapping 15 different components on to the game created by mentally ill people in their free time with no central direction. Nothing fits tonally, everything clashes, the game bloats and becomes (even more) unstable. If there was any soul in the piece of art, it’s stripped away now. Without any soul, a game is just a sedative. Ask your doctor for an Ativan prescription, you’ll get a similar experience to a modern Bethesda title.
Oblivion wasn't that bad.
Oblivion was the game that crushed my faith in AAA games. I was massive Morrowind fan and played it for years, I was at ripe age of 16 years old when Oblivion released so I was just at that demographic where it should've been life-altering experience. I wanted to like it. I really did. I convinced myself to play it, telling myself I enjoy it while it all felt so hollow. I managed to play for 2 weeks before abandoning the game for many years and every brief return to it has only proven how foolish I was to even try to take it in. At that age I couldn't exactly put it into words what made it so terrible, those articulations dawned on me much later but all in all, Oblivion remains the single most disappointing game I have ever played in my entire life.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
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At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
CPU: 7800X3D (£454) & Arctic Liquid Freezer II 360 (£92)
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And the desk cost like £600

Some of this stuff I bought a few years ago so I didn't get as good a price for it as I could do now
You bought three displays but skimped on an Asus GPU for, what, Gigabyte? Nigger, I'ma slap you!
 

Robotigan

Learned
Joined
Jan 18, 2022
Messages
420
Someone even wrote a 5-part blog post about how incredibly shitty Skyrim's thieves guild quest line was:
https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14422
And he even noted that the thieves quest isn't even the worst Skyrim has to offer.
This takedown deserves its own takedown. It's not so much that I think the questline is Goodfellas or anything, but several online critics have the most bizarre tunnel vision that makes them insufferable to read. It reminds me of all those youtubers who lost their minds over Kid in a Fridge somehow oblivious to the fact that the quest's premise is a very intentional joke. If a straight delivery throws you off, I don't know that you're qualified to evaluate writing quality.
Then the captain of the guard tells Mallus to take over, and Mallus tells me he’s going to start converting the distillery to make mead for Maven.

Wha??

Look, if the health inspector shuts down your McDonald’s, the police don’t come in and give the building to Burger King. Who owns this place? What’s happening here?
Because they're corrupt. The game is set in a medieval land ruled by a loose confederation of petty kingdoms. Casual corruption is to be expected. The author seems to struggle to think outside of contemporary societies and their robust legal frameworks. This ties in with his confusion about a legal business dealing generating intrigue. Like many preindustrial societies, Skyrim's population mostly adheres to a code of honor and tradition not legalism. That's the entire catalyst for the Civil War. The common folk wouldn't differentiate between an undisclosed business dealing and a forceful seizure. What the author is trying to spin as bad writing are actually examples of good worldbuilding.
Then at the end of the dungeon, I enter the final chamber and suddenly fall over. Karliah has hit me with a paralysis arrow which will never exist or be mentioned again in the gameworld, despite the fact that it would be the Most Useful Thing Ever.
I... paralysis exists in multiple forms. There are two ways to apply it to a bow (or any other weapon) and you can go around Karliah-ing people to your heart's content. There's funny youtube videos that feature players doing exactly that. It also exists as a spell. And it is used elsewhere. Just off the top of my head, Kematu paralyzes Saadia at the end of that Redguard quest.

I'm not gonna tediously analyze the entire piece because while I'm sure there's a worthwhile critique here and there, speaking so confidently and assuredly about a quest's flaws while your own review is littered with naive assumptions and egregious oversights pretty much says it all. I think I know his main contention anyway, he wants a game with a more developed, explicit narrative and setpieces that reinforce that narrative. Those aren't the kind of games Bethesda makes and players hate it when they try. It seems to really annoy him that they didn't animate the mead being transported from the distillery into the kegs or that Mercer Frey doesn't have custom, stealthy AI. I'm not saying those things wouldn't improve the experience, but they're marginal considerations for a game with such a large scope. The developers need to pick their battles, and here I think they chose correctly. You can't simulate an entire country in granular detail, some things will need to be implied and left to the player's imagination.

He doesn't seem to be very interested in the game systems outside of their story implementation which is how he missed the whole paralysis mechanic. It's not wrong to prefer more story-rich games over sandboxier ones--I find that I burn out on one if I don't alternate--but if you're going to analyze a game you should be more cognizant of what kind of game you're playing and what it's design goals are before criticizing what it does and doesn't do. I wouldn't knock Skyrim for lacking cinematic presentation for all its quests, but I will lament the absence of a robust intimidation/persuasion system because it feels like something the game ought to support (and previous titles in the franchise did support).
 

Robotigan

Learned
Joined
Jan 18, 2022
Messages
420
I would have easily traded settlement management for land vehicles and flying ship around planets.

If they aren’t doing land vehicles then it’s most likely the same reason they don’t do them in their Fallout games. There’s some interview that got posted here (this site, I don’t think it was this thread) a few years ago where Todd Howard says the reason Fallout doesn’t have vehicles is because their engine can’t handle the player moving that fast through the game world. It would seem that problem is still a problem with their engine.
It's more accurate to say it's a design limitation. If you watch a speedrun of their games, the engine clearly can handle the player physically moving that fast. The problem is the cells don't stream in in time so everything looks glitchy. If they really wanted to add vehicles, it's easy to see all the ways they could reduce the data streaming load. Instead of tracking every NPC and item in the cell at all times, they could simply unload those resources when they're out of view. They could drastically reduce geometry without sacrificing visual fidelity if they didn't dot their landscapes with so many points of interest and modeled interiors. But that simulation detail has become part of their brand so they elect for heavier loads and constrain the player's speed to compensate.

Wasn't it Fallout 76 where you could move faster by looking at the ground?
This isn't surprising for a game where everything is tied to a fixed tickrate. If you uncap the frame/tickrate then you're not going to simulate stuff in more granular increments but increase the speed of the simulation. And looking at the ground means the game has to render less geometry so it can push frames faster. And if you wanna get spooky, that's how our own universe works. As you approach the speed of light, the 'simulation' speeds up from your frame of reference. You can tell the engine wasn't designed for online and BGS Austin struggled to implement the netcode. The server shouldn't just accept whatever the client tells thems. It should be able to evaluate whether the information it's receiving makes sense and overrule the client if it says the player is moving faster than they should.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 7, 2019
Messages
217
This is about recognizing patterns in the environment. Oblivion was very bad, Skyrim was worse, Fallout 4 was a crime against humanity and Fallout 76… they keep getting worse every single time. Is there any reason why this would be different? Consider that you’ve got the same manipulator salesman at the helm telling the same lies that he always does through his big fake smile.

Oh, but the mods!

Yes mods, so you start strapping 15 different components on to the game created by mentally ill people in their free time with no central direction. Nothing fits tonally, everything clashes, the game bloats and becomes (even more) unstable. If there was any soul in the piece of art, it’s stripped away now. Without any soul, a game is just a sedative. Ask your doctor for an Ativan prescription, you’ll get a similar experience to a modern Bethesda title.
Oblivion wasn't that bad.
Oblivion was the game that crushed my faith in AAA games. I was massive Morrowind fan and played it for years, I was at ripe age of 16 years old when Oblivion released so I was just at that demographic where it should've been life-altering experience. I wanted to like it. I really did. I convinced myself to play it, telling myself I enjoy it while it all felt so hollow. I managed to play for 2 weeks before abandoning the game for many years and every brief return to it has only proven how foolish I was to even try to take it in. At that age I couldn't exactly put it into words what made it so terrible, those articulations dawned on me much later but all in all, Oblivion remains the single most disappointing game I have ever played in my entire life.
I had the same exact experience, I loved playing Morrowind. The dust storms in the northern desert areas with 5.1 surround was really immersive. And they released Oblivion, and they just destroyed everything. Removed skills and added level scaling. Pirated it once, played a few hours and never again. Skyrim I played to archmage then never again.
 

Gargaune

Arcane
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,623
I would have easily traded settlement management for land vehicles and flying ship around planets.

If they aren’t doing land vehicles then it’s most likely the same reason they don’t do them in their Fallout games. There’s some interview that got posted here (this site, I don’t think it was this thread) a few years ago where Todd Howard says the reason Fallout doesn’t have vehicles is because their engine can’t handle the player moving that fast through the game world. It would seem that problem is still a problem with their engine.
It's more accurate to say it's a design limitation. If you watch a speedrun of their games, the engine clearly hand handle the player physically moving that fast. The problem is the cells don't stream in in time so everything looks glitchy. If they really wanted to add vehicles, it's easy to see all the ways they could reduce the data streaming load. Instead of tracking every NPC and item in the cell at all times, they could simply unload those resources when they're out of view. They could drastically reduce geometry without sacrificing visual fidelity if they didn't dot their landscapes with so many points of interest and modeled interiors. But that simulation detail has become part of their brand so they elect for heavier loads and constrain the player's speed to compensate.
Without getting into the nitty-gritty, you're right, Gamebryo can handle vehicles. You figure out your maximum traversal speed and you optimise what and where as needed, tech application is driven by use case needs. The bigger problem has been flying "vehicles", like dragons and vertibirds, because of the much wider area to cover from high up, but that too can be addressed. And anyway, Skyrim had (slowish) horses, Fallout 3 got cars in the Frontier mod, Fallout 4 has a fully working (albeit not very polished) motorcycle mod, so it's not exactly a novel concept.

The main issue, however, isn't software design, it's game design. Take the aforementioned Fo4 motorcycle mod for an example - it's a neat idea, but not very useful because the map topography and content density can't accommodate it, you can't go more than three hundred metres before you have to get off and fight something. To build vehicular gameplay, you need a giant map with open expanses, like the one in that Mad Max game. And then you need new gameplay loops to fill those expanses and keep that game "mode" as interesting as the pedestrian one, or you end up with Cyberpunk 2077's cars, i.e. pretty but dumb. You can't half-arse it (like settlements), you need a complete extra game mode so it's a pretty dramatic shift in scope. I wish Bethesda bit the bullet and gave us the full Mad Max experience in their next Fallout (if we live long enough to see it), but I wouldn't be surprised if they kept passing on it.

On a somewhat related note, one of Fallout London's trailers has a guy riding a bicycle. Which proves Jeremy Clarkson was right about cyclists, they're a menace to civilisation.
 

Late Bloomer

Scholar
Joined
Apr 7, 2022
Messages
3,941
Todd Howard looks so old now. :(
I realize he has wrinkles and little undereye bags which he hadn't back in the day.

Are you so alone in the world that seeing people age is some revelation worth stating. Yes, Todd Howard is entering his mid 50's which can include wrinkles and bags. Shocking.
 

Robotigan

Learned
Joined
Jan 18, 2022
Messages
420
The main issue, however, isn't software design, it's game design. Take the aforementioned Fo4 motorcycle mod for an example - it's a neat idea, but not very useful because the map topography and content density can't accommodate it, you can't go more than three hundred metres before you have to get off and fight something. To build vehicular gameplay, you need a giant map with open expanses, like the one in that Mad Max game. And then you need new gameplay loops to fill those expanses and keep that game "mode" as interesting as the pedestrian one, or you end up with Cyberpunk 2077's cars, i.e. pretty but dumb. You can't half-arse it (like settlements), you need a complete extra game mode so it's a pretty dramatic shift in scope. I wish Bethesda bit the bullet and gave us the full Mad Max experience in their next Fallout (if we live long enough to see it), but I wouldn't be surprised if they kept passing on it.
This probably says more about the games I play informing different expectations--I've barely touched GTA and their clones--but I don't think the Fallout setting really needs them. Cars probably wouldn't be a big part of a post-apocalyptic future anyhow so unless your setting is stylized around them, Mad Max, they're not necessary inclusion. But I guess the older Fallouts had them (kinda) so the idea had already been implanted. I don't think a space game needs land vehicles either. You don't think of astronauts spinning donuts in flashy rides, at most you'd expect a buggie for hauling cargo. Contrast with Cyberpunk 2077. When you say "open world cyberpunk", the Akira motorcycle slide is one of the first things that pops into people's heads.
 

Gargaune

Arcane
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,623
This probably says more about the games I play informing different expectations--I've barely touched GTA and their clones--but I don't think the Fallout setting really needs them.
They're not necessary but they do present an appealing opportunity, a Bethesda Fallout plus some Mad Max/Carmageddon action would be pretty fucking awesome. Dunno about you guys, but I could go for a 1968 Mustang pick-up truck conversion with a Power Armour crane in the back, Dogmeat in the passenger's seat, and a bonnet-mounted minigun. Rusted green with Le Mans stripes and a Bettie Page decal saying "fuck ferals!"*

* - not literally


I don't think a space game needs land vehicles either.
I do agree when it comes to Starfield, a semi-realistic "NASA punk" rover won't be that exciting a ride, and you'd be somewhat limited in building themed gameplay loops for it.
 

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