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Starfield Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

AwesomeButton

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The sooner people realize that RPGs are incompatible with action/shooter combat, the better. The very things that make a shooter or a hack and slash action game fun are mutually exclusive with what makes a RPG combat system fun.
absolutely agree
How do you try to integrate firearms (lasers) in a first-person RPG then?

1. Make enemies bullet sponges. Then go by the "numbers go up" mantra, better weapons overcome the sponge faster. -- This sucks as system design.
2. "The pseudo-simulationist approach". Make firearms very inaccurate, very prone to breaking, add wepon condition statistic, gamify the "time to iron sights", time to reload, weight in the inventory, the recoil, rounds fired per second, etc. Make firearms suck and gradually improve them through crafting/wepon modification, or through the player finding innately better weapons in the world. This way you can have weapons that always kill or cripple from 1-2 shots, but getting to actually hit something is the skill the player can build up.
3. In addition to the stats from 2., add some player build choices that improve the same stats, i.e. a more skilled character can make more of the same weapon than an unskilled character.

IDK, this seems like a watertight way to integrate shooter combat into an RPG. Thoughts?
 

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I've mentioned it before, that while I much prefer an isometric view for the artistic freedom that it provides, a first/third-person RPG can work. Panning up to an isometric camera once combat is initiated is one option as in Archaeland, or even something like the first person view in Space Hulk: Tactics could work, though the fact that models are snapped onto a grid does suck. The only thing is that if you want to have a system like this, it's very important you do not have too many encounters as the constant panning up to an isometric camera and/or stopping your exploration and movement even if you're staying in first person, would likely detract from the pros of having a first-person view in an RPG, namely immersion.

Every single one of Bethesda's games, yes including Morrowind, have had complete dogshit gameplay, and oftentimes the worlds themselves are very poorly done with towns/cities being way too close together and underpopulated, so you cannot even use the "muh immersion" argument to defend their quality. For some reason FO:NV is a favorite here on the 'Dex and I still don't know why. The combat is horrible, the world looks like shit, the lack of NPCs is jarring and the few NPCs that are around behave like robots, and though there are some great world building moments/locations, it's not enough to salvage a poor experience. One can argue that Morrowind has an interesting art direction and a world (though the aforementioned flaws ruin the world for me) to make up for the horrible gameplay, but all-in-all, it's a horrible catalogue.

Starfield was a golden opportunity for Bethesda in that the setting would have been perfect to mask the flaws that are inherent with their engine/games. Remote outposts on unique worlds would be the perfect excuse for only having twenty NPCs, and if there is only one "town"/outpost on a world, than you wouldn't have to worry about immersion breaking closeness. They could have really leaned into the mystery aspect to make for some amazing emergent gameplay. Imagine foraging for close to an hour on a harsh, inhospitable jungle world that's filled to the brim with fauna that wants to kill you, only to run into some sort of a native village, with strange alien creatures inhabiting it. The sense of wonder would be amazing and even if none of the other worlds had discoveries even as close to as interesting as that, it would still be enough to make exploring each planet extremely fun. You could even make it so finding the village is required to advance the main quest if the corporate devs couldn't bear adding content that people might miss. Throw in a few interesting dungeons/ruins on a few planets and maybe a pirate outpost with some C&C where you have the opportunity to turn them hostile or to be allowed in, and you'd have a game that is loads better than many of their previous titles, even with the cringe plot.

Oh well.
Why did you delete your post, bro?
Wanted to add more that was Starfield related.
 

Vic

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considering restarting the game fresh now that I have a better understanding of it.

It seems there is a common consensus that the early hours of the game are shit, so you guys all whining after the first few hours seems to be how everybody feels, and that the game gets better and better the more you play and discover. Personally I don't get it, the moment I started exploring Kreet I already knew what kind of game it was.

I do think Starfield is Todd Howard's magnum opus.
Unless there's mods that require a fresh save, there's no real reason to restart.
Game has a New Game+ option at the end of MQ if you want it
Yeah, but I feel like I wanna start over fresh and see what I might've missed. It's really layers upon layers, man!
 

AwesomeButton

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and people are already starting to fix the UI

zph0nnuy9amb1.png
Give me the link. I have no time and I must mod.

giphy.gif
 

Vic

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How do you try to integrate firearms (lasers) in a first-person RPG then?
My stance is that the more player skill a game requires, the less RPG it is. Basically the prowess of your character should be determined by his stats, not by your agility. In Starfield, and in the 3D Fallouts, you have popamole shooting combat that is greatly dependent on your reflexes. Even if it has gear that increases the characters damage and defense, it's still largely dependent on your FPS skills.

Give me the link. I have no time and I must mod.

I just saw this on reddit, don't think the guy released it yet, but there might be something on the nexus already. I think UI mods will be the first mods to hit the scene.
 

Naraya

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considering restarting the game fresh now that I have a better understanding of it.

It seems there is a common consensus that the early hours of the game are shit, so you guys all whining after the first few hours seems to be how everybody feels, and that the game gets better and better the more you play and discover. Personally I don't get it, the moment I started exploring Kreet I already knew what kind of game it was.

I do think Starfield is Todd Howard's magnum opus.

ahh the classic "the first 50 hours are shit, get better after that" argument. Must always be at least an amount of time that makes a game unrefundable for some reason.

Must be a great experience.
Don't forget the "story is not terrible". Copium levels are off the charts.
 

Grauken

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The sooner people realize that RPGs are incompatible with action/shooter combat, the better. The very things that make a shooter or a hack and slash action game fun are mutually exclusive with what makes a RPG combat system fun.
absolutely agree
How do you try to integrate firearms (lasers) in a first-person RPG then?

1. Make enemies bullet sponges. Then go by the "numbers go up" mantra, better weapons overcome the sponge faster. -- This sucks as system design.
2. "The pseudo-simulationist approach". Make firearms very inaccurate, very prone to breaking, add wepon condition statistic, gamify the "time to iron sights", time to reload, weight in the inventory, the recoil, rounds fired per second, etc. Make firearms suck and gradually improve them through crafting/wepon modification, or through the player finding innately better weapons in the world. This way you can have weapons that always kill or cripple from 1-2 shots, but getting to actually hit something is the skill the player can build up.
3. In addition to the stats from 2., add some player build choices that improve the same stats, i.e. a more skilled character can make more of the same weapon than an unskilled character.

IDK, this seems like a watertight way to integrate shooter combat into an RPG. Thoughts?
People usually hate the 2nd approach because it goes against their instincts. They might say they want a more realistic role-playing approach to shooter combat but when the game mechanics impede their manual FPS skills they usually get mad. Works to some degree in games, see Deux Ex, but usually is frowned upon by many players. Especially if you want to have more mass-appeal its a death knell
 
Last edited:

S.H.O.D.A.N.

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Make firearms very inaccurate

Everything else from the list I can accept, but that one is a deal breaker for me. There's nothing worse than seeing the aiming reticule squarely over the target only for the shot to hit the cat in the apartment next door.

I think CP2077 is introducing some form of endurance bar for firearms in their next big patch, where you have perfect aim as long as you have some of that resource left and only start missing if you run out. That's a compromise between FPS and RPG mechanics I can stomach.
 

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
How do you try to integrate firearms (lasers) in a first-person RPG then?
You can't.
1. Make enemies bullet sponges. Then go by the "numbers go up" mantra, better weapons overcome the sponge faster. -- This sucks as system design.
Obviously shit design as you pointed out.
2. "The pseudo-simulationist approach". Make firearms very inaccurate, very prone to breaking, add wepon condition statistic, gamify the "time to iron sights", time to reload, weight in the inventory, the recoil, rounds fired per second, etc. Make firearms suck and gradually improve them through crafting/wepon modification, or through the player finding innately better weapons in the world. This way you can have weapons that always kill or cripple from 1-2 shots, but getting to actually hit something is the skill the player can build up.
Ton of problems with this system. First off, this feels like absolute shit. In a turn-based combat system such as Underrail/Dungeon Rats, your strategy/tactics are what make the combat feel fun. There is skill involved in how you approach certain encounters, and you can see the percentages for how successful your action will be. Where does the fun come from with this system? Oh shoot, I should have aimed at his head better? You did everything right but because of some arbitrary stat, you missed. It can also also make it so you need to play a certain way, such as rushing up close to all the enemies so your inaccuracy doesn't matter if you're unloading a shotgun or assault rifle magazine two inches from their chest.

Then there is the fact that the combat will feel like shit for the vast of the game until you're towards the end. If you get semi-accurate right around the middle of the game, the encounters will either be complete cakewalks or you will be reloading constantly playing against bots that auto target you with very high accuracy, essentially making it aim labs.

Plus, the enemies will be suffering from the same low health/high lethality gunplay you described, unless you yourself are a bullet sponge. No one wants to reload a long fight because an enemy got lucky and hit a shot they shouldn't have while you missed five in a row despite aiming dead center on the target, and if you can take bullets while the enemies can't, I have a hard time imaging how you will make encounters feel balanced. I can totally imagine an encounter that's supposed to be easy turning into a nightmare because you keep missing easy shots while the enemy hits all of theirs, while an encounter that's supposed to be climactic and difficult ends up very easy because you end up getting a lucky headshot.

Finally, there is the issue of immersion. In an isometric game, although you see your shots as hitting, you can't see where or how they land versus if you were in a first-person view. In Underrail, if an enemy takes a full SMG burst, I can assume their energy shield absorbed the blow, or that the shots grazed him, with only one or two getting absorbed by their bulletproof vest. In a first-person game, I can see where each of my bullets are supposed to land. I just shot three bullets into this guys skull, how is he alive? I just landed a shot on the arm that's holding his weapon, how does he hold onto it? Also lol at weapons randomly breaking. It always feels like shit. Just because I have never shot a gun in my life doesn't mean it should break halfway into my first magazine.

These are just a few of the issues that come at the top of my head, and I'm sure others or myself could think of more issues as well.

In the best case scenario, the combat will never be as good as your standard FPS shooter in terms of a gunplay feel, and it will never feel as tactical/interesting as a well executed turn-based combat system. It's trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole. Even if you get it in there, it's going to be fucked up on the other side.
 

Vic

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I think CP2077 is introducing some form of endurance bar for firearms in their next big patch, where you have perfect aim as long as you have some of that resource left and only start missing if you run out. That's a compromise between FPS and RPG mechanics I can stomach.
that actually seems like a good idea on paper
 

Zarniwoop

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The sooner people realize that RPGs are incompatible with action/shooter combat, the better. The very things that make a shooter or a hack and slash action game fun are mutually exclusive with what makes a RPG combat system fun.
absolutely agree
How do you try to integrate firearms (lasers) in a first-person RPG then?

1. Make enemies bullet sponges. Then go by the "numbers go up" mantra, better weapons overcome the sponge faster. -- This sucks as system design.
2. "The pseudo-simulationist approach". Make firearms very inaccurate, very prone to breaking, add wepon condition statistic, gamify the "time to iron sights", time to reload, weight in the inventory, the recoil, rounds fired per second, etc. Make firearms suck and gradually improve them through crafting/wepon modification, or through the player finding innately better weapons in the world. This way you can have weapons that always kill or cripple from 1-2 shots, but getting to actually hit something is the skill the player can build up.
3. In addition to the stats from 2., add some player build choices that improve the same stats, i.e. a more skilled character can make more of the same weapon than an unskilled character.

IDK, this seems like a watertight way to integrate shooter combat into an RPG. Thoughts?

The only way to integrate RPG mechanics into a first person game with firearms and fricken "laser" beams is like Hellgate London.

In other words it sucks.
 

AwesomeButton

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My stance is that the more player skill a game requires, the less RPG it is.
"Kingdom Come: Deliverance" is a great RPG.

It's a question of design philosophy. IMO it's less important what approach you choose than that you don't half-ass the approach.
 

AwesomeButton

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Everything else from the list I can accept, but that one is a deal breaker for me. There's nothing worse than seeing the aiming reticule squarely over the target only for the shot to hit the cat in the apartment next door.
That was my experience with Deus Ex. I found it weird too, then I learned to keep it in mind. Just proposing stuff, I don't insist on this mechanic.
 

Trithne

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I think there's a middle ground to be found between pure your-character's-stats-are-all-that-matters RPG and the RPG-shooters. I actually felt that Bethesda were getting there with FO4, as much as that game had many issues - If you can't excise player skill from the equation, then use a system of perks that encourage a "build" and use mechanics to limit the player's ability to just brute force the game without care.

A lot of what AwesomeButton mentioned is the sort of levers you play with here - Faster ADS, less sway/recoil, faster reloading. Stamina governing your ability to ADS is also a good one.

The wrong direction to go is "bonus damage" and the really wrong direction is "random stats and affixes on weapons"
 

AwesomeButton

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I think CP2077 is introducing some form of endurance bar for firearms in their next big patch, where you have perfect aim as long as you have some of that resource left and only start missing if you run out.
This is the first time I hear of this, do you have a source? That sounds like a hidden "bullet spread the longer burst you shoot" mechanic. Off the top of my head, I guess it will encourage more maneuvering on the player's part, running around while his accuracy builds up when attacking an outpost alone, or would encourage switching between melee, hacks and grenades, because you're no longer able to get by with just shooting. Maybe that's the intention.
 

Irxy

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so basically just play No man's sky which by now is pretty good?
I think the main difference is, NMS has only aliens, Starfield has only humans and some robots
NMS doesn't have humans though, lol. It is a very different game, didn't even have a story when it was originally released.
Also the space & planets are very cartoonish there.
So unless you are looking for a survival-like gameplay on LCD-inspired random planets, that game is not for you. It's not an RPG and not a space sim.
 

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