Starfield Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Vic]

 

[ItsChon]

How do you try to integrate firearms (lasers) in a first-person RPG then?

You can't.

1. Make enemies bullet sponges. Then go by the "numbers go up" mantra, better weapons overcome the sponge faster. -- This sucks as system design.

Obviously shit design as you pointed out.

2. "The pseudo-simulationist approach". Make firearms very inaccurate, very prone to breaking, add wepon condition statistic, gamify the "time to iron sights", time to reload, weight in the inventory, the recoil, rounds fired per second, etc. Make firearms suck and gradually improve them through crafting/wepon modification, or through the player finding innately better weapons in the world. This way you can have weapons that always kill or cripple from 1-2 shots, but getting to actually hit something is the skill the player can build up.

Ton of problems with this system. First off, this feels like absolute shit. In a turn-based combat system such as Underrail/Dungeon Rats, your strategy/tactics are what make the combat feel fun. There is skill involved in how you approach certain encounters, and you can see the percentages for how successful your action will be. Where does the fun come from with this system? Oh shoot, I should have aimed at his head better? You did everything right but because of some arbitrary stat, you missed. It can also also make it so you need to play a certain way, such as rushing up close to all the enemies so your inaccuracy doesn't matter if you're unloading a shotgun or assault rifle magazine two inches from their chest.

Then there is the fact that the combat will feel like shit for the vast of the game until you're towards the end. If you get semi-accurate right around the middle of the game, the encounters will either be complete cakewalks or you will be reloading constantly playing against bots that auto target you with very high accuracy, essentially making it aim labs.

Plus, the enemies will be suffering from the same low health/high lethality gunplay you described, unless you yourself are a bullet sponge. No one wants to reload a long fight because an enemy got lucky and hit a shot they shouldn't have while you missed five in a row despite aiming dead center on the target, and if you can take bullets while the enemies can't, I have a hard time imaging how you will make encounters feel balanced. I can totally imagine an encounter that's supposed to be easy turning into a nightmare because you keep missing easy shots while the enemy hits all of theirs, while an encounter that's supposed to be climactic and difficult ends up very easy because you end up getting a lucky headshot.

Finally, there is the issue of immersion. In an isometric game, although you see your shots as hitting, you can't see where or how they land versus if you were in a first-person view. In Underrail, if an enemy takes a full SMG burst, I can assume their energy shield absorbed the blow, or that the shots grazed him, with only one or two getting absorbed by their bulletproof vest. In a first-person game, I can see where each of my bullets are supposed to land. I just shot three bullets into this guys skull, how is he alive? I just landed a shot on the arm that's holding his weapon, how does he hold onto it? Also lol at weapons randomly breaking. It always feels like shit. Just because I have never shot a gun in my life doesn't mean it should break halfway into my first magazine.

These are just a few of the issues that come at the top of my head, and I'm sure others or myself could think of more issues as well.

In the best case scenario, the combat will never be as good as your standard FPS shooter in terms of a gunplay feel, and it will never feel as tactical/interesting as a well executed turn-based combat system. It's trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole. Even if you get it in there, it's going to be fucked up on the other side.

 

[Vic]

I think CP2077 is introducing some form of endurance bar for firearms in their next big patch, where you have perfect aim as long as you have some of that resource left and only start missing if you run out. That's a compromise between FPS and RPG mechanics I can stomach.

that actually seems like a good idea on paper

 

[Zarniwoop]

The sooner people realize that RPGs are incompatible with action/shooter combat, the better. The very things that make a shooter or a hack and slash action game fun are mutually exclusive with what makes a RPG combat system fun.

absolutely agree

How do you try to integrate firearms (lasers) in a first-person RPG then?

1. Make enemies bullet sponges. Then go by the "numbers go up" mantra, better weapons overcome the sponge faster. -- This sucks as system design.
2. "The pseudo-simulationist approach". Make firearms very inaccurate, very prone to breaking, add wepon condition statistic, gamify the "time to iron sights", time to reload, weight in the inventory, the recoil, rounds fired per second, etc. Make firearms suck and gradually improve them through crafting/wepon modification, or through the player finding innately better weapons in the world. This way you can have weapons that always kill or cripple from 1-2 shots, but getting to actually hit something is the skill the player can build up.
3. In addition to the stats from 2., add some player build choices that improve the same stats, i.e. a more skilled character can make more of the same weapon than an unskilled character.

IDK, this seems like a watertight way to integrate shooter combat into an RPG. Thoughts?

The only way to integrate RPG mechanics into a first person game with firearms and fricken "laser" beams is like Hellgate London.

In other words it sucks.

 

[AwesomeButton]

My stance is that the more player skill a game requires, the less RPG it is.

"Kingdom Come: Deliverance" is a great RPG.

It's a question of design philosophy. IMO it's less important what approach you choose than that you don't half-ass the approach.

 

[Trithne]

 

[Vic]

INVISIBLE WALLS!

 

[AwesomeButton]

Everything else from the list I can accept, but that one is a deal breaker for me. There's nothing worse than seeing the aiming reticule squarely over the target only for the shot to hit the cat in the apartment next door.

That was my experience with Deus Ex. I found it weird too, then I learned to keep it in mind. Just proposing stuff, I don't insist on this mechanic.

 

[Trithne]

I think there's a middle ground to be found between pure your-character's-stats-are-all-that-matters RPG and the RPG-shooters. I actually felt that Bethesda were getting there with FO4, as much as that game had many issues - If you can't excise player skill from the equation, then use a system of perks that encourage a "build" and use mechanics to limit the player's ability to just brute force the game without care.

A lot of what AwesomeButton mentioned is the sort of levers you play with here - Faster ADS, less sway/recoil, faster reloading. Stamina governing your ability to ADS is also a good one.

The wrong direction to go is "bonus damage" and the really wrong direction is "random stats and affixes on weapons"

 

[AwesomeButton]

I think CP2077 is introducing some form of endurance bar for firearms in their next big patch, where you have perfect aim as long as you have some of that resource left and only start missing if you run out.

This is the first time I hear of this, do you have a source? That sounds like a hidden "bullet spread the longer burst you shoot" mechanic. Off the top of my head, I guess it will encourage more maneuvering on the player's part, running around while his accuracy builds up when attacking an outpost alone, or would encourage switching between melee, hacks and grenades, because you're no longer able to get by with just shooting. Maybe that's the intention.

 

[Irxy]

so basically just play No man's sky which by now is pretty good?

I think the main difference is, NMS has only aliens, Starfield has only humans and some robots

NMS doesn't have humans though, lol. It is a very different game, didn't even have a story when it was originally released.
Also the space & planets are very cartoonish there.
So unless you are looking for a survival-like gameplay on LCD-inspired random planets, that game is not for you. It's not an RPG and not a space sim.

 

[Vic]

this is what autism looks like:

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

We need to change the slogan "mods will fix it" to "mods will make it bearable".

How?
Are they going to prosperize the release thread?

 

[Vic]

remember, codex is mainstream now

normies hate starfield because it doesn't immediately wow them in the first 5 minutes of the game

 

[Naraya]

Vic spotted in the wild:

 

[ArchAngel]

this is what autism looks like:

No, this captain is just epic level internet warrior and needs lots of spoons to eat the salt he generates from others.

 

[Cross]

Everything else from the list I can accept, but that one is a deal breaker for me. There's nothing worse than seeing the aiming reticule squarely over the target only for the shot to hit the cat in the apartment next door.

That was my experience with Deus Ex. I found it weird too, then I learned to keep it in mind. Just proposing stuff, I don't insist on this mechanic.

That's not how the aiming system works in Deus Ex. Your shots always land in the area of the targeting reticule. The targeting crosshairs start out wide apart, but if you stand still, they tighten to a reticule that's about the same size as you would have in a normal FPS.

The higher your skill in a type of firearm, the faster the crosshairs tighten. If you max out the skill, the crosshairs tighten so fast you essentially have the same accuracy as you would have in a regular FPS.

Of all the games that add RPG elements to first-person shooting, Deus Ex has the best implementation because it offers you clear feedback on your accuracy.

The skill levels also affect other things, like reload speed, damage and in the case of heavy weapons, your movement speed.

 

[Jenkem]

 

[JamesDixon]

View attachment 40873

If you need to make a post like that to garner validation then you have a problem.

 

[AwesomeButton]

First off, this feels like absolute shit. In a turn-based combat system such as Underrail/Dungeon Rats, your strategy/tactics are what make the combat feel fun. There is skill involved in how you approach certain encounters, and you can see the percentages for how successful your action will be. Where does the fun come from with this system? Oh shoot, I should have aimed at his head better? You did everything right but because of some arbitrary stat, you missed

I was hoping for a better counter argument. I am not convinced by statements like "feels like absolute shit". You are being sarcastic, but many people actually like to play games of chance. The percentage displayed is just a UI convenience. VATS was insanely popular in Fallout/2. You get choice, you get tradeoffs, chance improves with skill. Therefore, RPG.

It can also also make it so you need to play a certain way, such as rushing up close to all the enemies so your inaccuracy doesn't matter if you're unloading a shotgun or assault rifle magazine two inches from their chest

"Playing a certain way" is actually "adapting your tactics to the available resources and situation". Some player may like chopping people with his axe because he is RPing Danny Trejo, but when they are too many and at a distance, he switches to a firearm. Nothing wrong with that.

Then there is the fact that the combat will feel like shit for the vast of the game until you're towards the end. If you get semi-accurate right around the middle of the game, the encounters will either be complete cakewalks or you will be reloading constantly playing against bots that auto target you with very high accuracy, essentially making it aim labs. balancing issues

Of course, when you add mechanics you need to balance them. Game design is a black hole of more and more work needed to get a seemingly "simple" "workflow" to function in a fun and satisfying way. So yeah, that's a valid problem. The bullet sponge solution has the same problem, it's just easier to adjust the numbers when the overall system is more simple.

Plus, the enemies will be suffering from the same low health/high lethality gunplay you described, unless you yourself are a bullet sponge. No one wants to reload a long fight because an enemy got lucky and hit a shot they shouldn't have while you missed five in a row despite aiming dead center on the target, and if you can take bullets while the enemies can't, I have a hard time imaging how you will make encounters feel balanced. I can totally imagine an encounter that's supposed to be easy turning into a nightmare because you keep missing easy shots while the enemy hits all of theirs, while an encounter that's supposed to be climactic and difficult ends up very easy because you end up getting a lucky headshot.

Finally, there is the issue of immersion. In an isometric game, although you see your shots as hitting, you can't see where or how they land versus if you were in a first-person view. In Underrail, if an enemy takes a full SMG burst, I can assume their energy shield absorbed the blow, or that the shots grazed him, with only one or two getting absorbed by their bulletproof vest. In a first-person game, I can see where each of my bullets are supposed to land. I just shot three bullets into this guys skull, how is he alive? I just landed a shot on the arm that's holding his weapon, how does he hold onto it? Also lol at weapons randomly breaking. It always feels like shit. Just because I have never shot a gun in my life doesn't mean it should break halfway into my first magazine.

These are just a few of the issues that come at the top of my head, and I'm sure others or myself could think of more issues as well.

In the best case scenario, the combat will never be as good as your standard FPS shooter in terms of a gunplay feel, and it will never feel as tactical/interesting as a well executed turn-based combat system. It's trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole. Even if you get it in there, it's going to be fucked up on the other side

Elaborating on the balance problems. Yeah, if you go down the way of balancing the combat system, you will face the necessity of balancing encounters as well, so they don't throw your balanced system on its head. But you are concentrating on the accuracy and damage variables in what I'm proposing. Gamifying the aim down sights, reload speed, firing speed, and weight of weapons while leaving accuracy and damage mostly down to player manual skill is a compromise which I think could work for many players. Just enough feeling of systems being present (add in weapon calibres in the FNV style), with the 3d shooter skills leading the way.

 

[AwesomeButton]

The higher your skill in a type of firearm, the faster the crosshairs tighten. If you max out the skill, the crosshairs tighten so fast you essentially have the same accuracy as you would have in a regular FPS.

This is not the whole story. If your skill is low or minimum, you will still miss from a distance even if your crosshairs have fully narrowed.

 

[Irxy]

it's not a colony, there is no more Earth in Starfield, so that's all of humanity you see, not just America, hence the diversity.

Their diversity agenda kind of conflicts the lore, I think.
You can basically redo your character appearance anytime you want, and since it is a future it is not masked as a barber, surgeon or anything like that, but an in-lore service Enhance.
There are even quests about it and NPCs talking about using it etc.
And now the question, why the heck would half of NPCs look like wal-mart abominations when you can pretty get any body and looks you want?
I mean, it's pretty obvious that this body-positive bullshit would dissapear a minute after a service like this becomes available and affordable.

 

[Readher]

it's not a colony, there is no more Earth in Starfield, so that's all of humanity you see, not just America, hence the diversity.

Their diversity agenda kind of conflicts the lore, I think.
You can basically redo your character appearance anytime you want, and since it is a future it is not masked as a barber, surgeon or anything like that, but an in-lore service Enhance.
There are even quests about it and NPCs talking about using it etc.
And now the question, why the heck would half of NPCs look like wal-mart abominations when you can pretty get any body and looks you want?
I mean, it's pretty obvious that this body-positive bullshit would dissapear a minute after a service like this becomes available and affordable.

In-universe, it probably costs a lot or something, even if it's cheap for the player.

 

[JamesDixon]

If you want good shooting mechanics then look no further than Phoenix Command on how to do it right. Phoenix Command is designed to be a realistic ballistics simulator for RPGs.

 

[S.H.O.D.A.N.]

I think CP2077 is introducing some form of endurance bar for firearms in their next big patch, where you have perfect aim as long as you have some of that resource left and only start missing if you run out.

This is the first time I hear of this, do you have a source? That sounds like a hidden "bullet spread the longer burst you shoot" mechanic. Off the top of my head, I guess it will encourage more maneuvering on the player's part, running around while his accuracy builds up when attacking an outpost alone, or would encourage switching between melee, hacks and grenades, because you're no longer able to get by with just shooting. Maybe that's the intention.

Here you can see the stamina bar getting chunked while firing a gun.



The accuracy drop is speculation on my part, but I assume there's some consequence for running out.