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Sunday morning brunch - OB-info/hype

The Internets

Scholar
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
105
The more I read about this game the more concerned I become. This is the second time a reviewer has taken to using story format to convey the details of a quest, which is a terrible way of being objective about a game. Take the example of Raynil The Vampire Slayer in the PC gamer review.

While reading the story you'd think that finding an invisible vampire hunter lurking about and then attacking you relentlessly sounds great--until you realize it's just a fancy way of saying their is no enemy AI. It's attack you all or nothing, every single time. How long before that gets old?

The next mini-story, despite it's sweet lead-up, ends the exact same way. A mass of guys who simply charge at you. At what point will you realize the pretext is worthless, as you'll end up in a button-mashing slug-fest anyway?

Then their is the bit about the dark brotherhood quest. The writer say's it's a dark and stormy night, and while this is nit-picking, we know indoor areas don't have thunder sounds or flashing lighting in windows. Is this some sort of embellishment or did it actually happen? If not, what other parts of this guys stories are made-up bull?

Reading on, it seems as if the whole point of the quest is to lure the guests away one by one and kill them. That's good and all, but that leaves a lot to the persuasion mini-game. Without good dialogue tree's this quest might be cool in theory but lame in practice--we'll see.

In the last 'mini-story' you see how once again, despite the players best efforts, it devolves into an all or nothing episode of Dukes of Hazard, ending with him walking on water to get away. Aside from the lameness of a wack stealth system, it seems as if all horses magically travel at the exact same speed. How sweet is that.

To close it all off we get some criticism, but not of the type we've already heard, this one is brand new. It seems as if the ironically named Radiant AI will join soil erosion as Oblivions top one liners. How sad.

Even though none of us have played it, I'm betting Oblivion will be a case study in mediocrity. It tries to do so much that it ends up dong nothing well. Stealth is a joke, combat and dialog is too simple, AI is worthless; and that's just what we know about now.

My guess is this train wreck will average out in the mid-80's, right where it belongs. It’s not that their intentions were bad, they just seem to love the shit out of cutting corners.
 

Fresh

Erudite
Joined
Dec 2, 2004
Messages
1,057
Location
Vault boy's secret hideout
The Internets said:
The more I read about this game the more concerned I become. Take the example of Raynil in the PC gamer review. This is the second time a reviewer has taken to using story format to convey the details of a quest.

Problem is, while reading it you'd think that finding an invisible vampire hunter lurking about and then attacking you relentlessly sounds great--until you realize it's just a fancy way of saying their is no enemy AI. It's attack you all or nothing, every single time. How long before that gets old?

The next mini-story, despite it's sweet lead-up, ends the exact same way. A mass of guys who simply charge at you. At what point will you realize the pretext is worthless, as you'll end up in a button-mashing slug-fest anyway?

Then their is the bit about the dark brotherhood quest. The writer say's it's a dark and stormy night, and while this is kinda nit-picking, we know indoor areas don't have thunder sounds or flashing lighting in windows. Is this some sort of embellishment or did it actually happen? If not, what other parts of this guys stories is made-up bull?

Reading on, it seems as if the whole point of the quest is to lure someone away and kill them. That's good and all, but that leaves a lot to the persuasion mini-game. Without good dialogue tree's this quest might be cool in theory but lame in practice--we'll see.

In the last 'mini-story' you see how once again, despite the players best efforts, it devolves into an all or nothing episode of Dukes of Hazard, ending with him walking on water to get away. Aside from the lameness of a wack stealth system, it seems as if all horses magically travel at the exact same speed. How sweet is that.

To close it all off we get some criticism, but not of the type we've already heard, this one is brand new. It seems as if the ironically named Radiant AI will join soil erosion as Oblivions top one liners. How sad.

Even though none of us have played it, I'm betting Oblivion will be a case study in mediocrity. It tries to do so much that it ends up dong nothing well. Stealth is a joke, combat and dialog is too simple, AI is worthless; and that's just what we know about now.

My guess is this train wreck will average out in the mid-80's, right where it belongs.
Who are you trying to impress with your whiny Oblivion-bashing?
 

GhanBuriGhan

Erudite
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
1,170
Had to skip most of it (really trying to avoid spoilers now), but I am happy about what was said about the quests, thats a good sign, the quest quality was really the one thing I was a most worried about.
Interesting point is the criticism of the conversations. In the previews they were usually commented on positively, but it sounds like over time it becomes repetitive and a little unbelievable. Well, I guess it won't be worse than Gothics.

I supposed the starting comments regarding character skill and turn based didn't sit too well with the crowd here? Not too well with me either - both aproaches can yiedl great RPG's, IMHO - just different games.
 

HotSnack

Cipher
Joined
Mar 7, 2006
Messages
650
Gwendo said:
Well, nothing can be worse that Freelancer's dialogues.

[npc] ... Hey, don't I know you?
[pc] ... Name's Trent.
[npc] ... Ah, but of course Mr Trent!
[pc] ...
[npc] ... I'm sorry, but I can't speak to you; your rep isn't good with us.
[pc] ... Okay.
 

Here2Argue

Novice
Joined
Sep 10, 2005
Messages
36
Gwendo said:
Well, nothing can be worse that Freelancer's dialogues.

Shenmue, with all its RPG glory, was pretty shitty in the dialogue department.

"'Seen any sailors?'
"Sailors?"
"'I'm looking for some sailors.'
" Sailors?"


Not sure if it was worse or about on par.
 

Gwendo

Augur
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
990
But Freelancer, besides terrible dialogue... They were all the same with the same voices!

them: ''What can i do for you?''
you: ''I dunno, what do you have?''
them: ''... New here eh?''
you: ''yup''
them: ''Well, i am person X from Y faction. We (own this place/don't own this place, but have an understanding with the people who do).
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
Oh my word. That's a screen of a stealthy mission - in which you must find a prisoner.

And what does the text box say?

The green arrow in my compass is pointing to my quest objective: the prisoner in the cell to my right. Always knowing where your next objective is makes Oblivion's quests flow beautifully, never leaving you wandering longer than you want to.

Progress, ladies and gentlemen.
 

LlamaGod

Cipher
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
3,095
Location
Yes
VISUALS THAT COMPLETELY IMMERSE YOU

Then you get to the dialog mini-games, cardboard NPCs and the fact all the characters you make are the same except for damage values and how they deliver that damage
 

Excrément

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Messages
1,005
Location
Rockville
This review is interesting, quests storyline looks excellent for a fantasy RPG game and largely better than any elderscrolls games for sure.

The RAI stuff and the poor dialogue are a concerned for me but I think some people may overhype the RAI. As Bethesda says RAI just make the world more "alive". It will be a good start for an enhanced RAI in the next game but it is disapointing.


The main quest doesn't look orginal at all but captivating and not boring.
The new combat system looks great as well as the new stealth system.

I am definitively buying this game.
 

Relien

Scholar
Joined
Nov 24, 2005
Messages
380
Location
Tremere chantry
Twinfalls said:
Oh my word. That's a screen of a stealthy mission - in which you must find a prisoner.

And what does the text box say?

The green arrow in my compass is pointing to my quest objective: the prisoner in the cell to my right. Always knowing where your next objective is makes Oblivion's quests flow beautifully, never leaving you wandering longer than you want to.

Progress, ladies and gentlemen.

You know, they have to guide the player, otherwise the poor thing could feel overwhelmed. Who knows, it may even start to cry, and that's not what we want, is it? :)

But seriously, I've seen one preview where it was said that the compass sucks and you will have a hard time ignoring it, unless you want to be held by the hand. In every other preview I saw the previewer praised the compass like in this case. So either the compass really isn't that bad (which I doubt from what I've heard about it) or there is no more demand for challenging games in any other aspect than action.

I'm still looking forward to OB, but thank god for the Codex. Even if its bitching is nearly insignificant compared to the roar of the masses, at least it's there and maybe, just maybe it will push things in the direction....er, which this minority likes :)
 

Solik

Scholar
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Messages
377
Relien said:
or there is no more demand for challenging games in any other aspect than action
Most people don't find following bad directions to be a fun type of challenge -- it's just a pointless time sink. It's a sensible compromise to the fact that you can't ask for clarifications and such, because you're forced by the medium to deal with whatever the designers wrote.

Searching for stuff is most often fun when the designers intended you to search for things, because they put effort into making that search interesting. Wasting an hour walking back and forth uncovering blackness on a minimap because you misunderstood the exact meaning of "rock cairn" as it pertains to directions is not entertaining to most people.
 

Excrément

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Messages
1,005
Location
Rockville
Solik said:
Relien said:
or there is no more demand for challenging games in any other aspect than action
Most people don't find following bad directions to be a fun type of challenge -- it's just a pointless time sink. It's a sensible compromise to the fact that you can't ask for clarifications and such, because you're forced by the medium to deal with whatever the designers wrote.

Searching for stuff is most often fun when the designers intended you to search for things, because they put effort into making that search interesting. Wasting an hour walking back and forth uncovering blackness on a minimap because you misunderstood the exact meaning of "rock cairn" as it pertains to directions is not entertaining to most people.

it depends on how long you are searching.
It is funny to be lost an half hour even if it was not the aim of the developers but when it lasts 3 hours because they put the dwemer puzzle box in a brush...
 

Excrément

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Messages
1,005
Location
Rockville
here is a quote from the reviewer of PC Gamer about his RAI problems and the quests in bOblivion :

RAI :

I mentioned the issue because it did recur a lot when I was playing. At once point six people all had the exact same conversation at once, in three pairs, all in different voices. I had to take my headphones off to stop my brain from melting. There's a little scripted exchange about the smell of human flesh burning that I loved the first time I heard it, but by the twentieth time a pair of NPCs had that exact conversation as I walked by, it drove me mad.

There are other ways in which the people in Oblivion aren't as convincing as they need to be to flesh out the world, but this was the only one that kept bothering me all the way through. I'm hoping there's a way to simply disable them altogether in the Construction Set.

50 hours of recorded dialogue is still not enough.

Quests :
Definitely the biggest surprise was just how much love and attention has gone into every single quest. No other game I've played comes close.

:P
 

Relien

Scholar
Joined
Nov 24, 2005
Messages
380
Location
Tremere chantry
@Solik

I'm not saying I found every quest location immediatelly while in the wilderness in MW. But it never took long enough to be frustrating. Usually I reread the journal, looked around, and found that cave/tomb/whatever. It's not a big problem to write good directions or let the player ask NPCs when he gets closer and needs further info etc.

Of course, there can be situations where the compass can be useful, and with the whole RAI thing there probably will be. I'm still a pessimist though, because everytime some reviewer praises the compass, he says something like "It takes you straight to the fun", or "You don't have to think about where to go next, just follow the green arrow".
 

Seboss

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 27, 2006
Messages
947
Everybody here has been bashing Oblivion for months now. According to you, it defines a new low in cRPG. You're not trying to convince anybody here since everybody - except for very few exceptions - hates it already.
So here's my question. Why don't you shut up about it ? I don't mean to be rude, I seriously don't understand why you keep prattling about a game you decided to hate from day one.
 

Relien

Scholar
Joined
Nov 24, 2005
Messages
380
Location
Tremere chantry
Seboss said:
Everybody here has been bashing Oblivion for months now. According to you, it defines a new low in cRPG. You're not trying to convince anybody here since everybody - except for very few exceptions - hates it already.
So here's my question. Why don't you shut up about it ? I don't mean to be rude, I seriously don't understand why you keep prattling about a game you decided to hate from day one.

Are you talking to me? I don't hate Oblivion, I'm looking forward to it. I just disagree with some of its features. Sometimes something I learn about it makes me sick, but I certainly don't think it defines a new low in cRPGs.
 

Stupid Man

Novice
Joined
Jun 1, 2004
Messages
20
Seboss said:
Everybody on ESF has been hyping Oblivion for months now. According to them, it defines a new high in cRPG. They are even trying to convince everyone here since a lot of people - except for very few exceptions - couldn't care less about it.
So here's my question. Why don't you troll more about it on the Codex forum ? I don't mean to be rude, I seriously understand why you keep trolling about a game you decided to love from day one because some people decided to hate it from day one. HOW DARE THEY !
Fixed. :roll:
 

Seboss

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 27, 2006
Messages
947
Stupid Man said:
Enough with the fanboy crap. Plus you're nothing but consensual here.

When I'm not interested into something or when something bothers me, I don't prattle about it for weeks: I ignore it and eventually forget about it.
I can understand that bashing is fun. It's just that some people seem to never have enough of it :|
 

Stupid Man

Novice
Joined
Jun 1, 2004
Messages
20
Seboss said:
When I'm interested into something (like the ES games) or when something bothers me (like an opinion on the ES games), I will troll a forum about it for months: I can't ignore it and will never forget about it.
I can't understand that my counter-bashing is fun. And some stupid people seem to never have enough of my counter-bashing.
Fixed again. :roll: (More fanboy crap please)
PS: je sais: c'est facile. Mais c'est plus fort que moi. :cry:
 

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